An Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Blacky]

I don't see how anyone read anything from the OP that isn't blatantly obvious.

1) I didn't find it threatening. If you did, it's probably because you planned or hoped somebody would use this as a trigger for a larger war involving Athens.

2) It did not support the actions, and infact put them in a negative light as regrettable actions, but not the be-all and end-all.

3) The admission was it was not right, but they weren't going to cut their long time allies loose because of that. No, this does not mean that they're supporting these actions eternally, just in this instance. If Athens continues down this path you can expect MK and their allies to act accordingly.

tl;dr

Calm down. We get it. What Athens did was wrong. Chill the **** out. Or dont, never forgive them, try to politically isolate them and launch an attack. Just please quit repeating the same points over and over. It's nauseating.

[Michael McBride]

Let me preface what I am about to say with the following:

I haven't read the entire thread. I intend to, but it's 5am here. I'll get to it tomorrow. However, what Archon said on Page 2 struck me (if this has already been covered, feel free just to point me to where it has been and I'll be on my way)

Once again, I've addressed this already with Crymson. That being said, if you think it's your job to act as moral hammer and destroy a bloc of alliances just because one tech raided a group of 39 then you've got that high horse shoved up a bit too high, methinks.

Bolded emphasis is mine.

Now, I'm not looking to take sides, this is more of a question to the class, really. What number is too high? How many people does an alliance need now before they can be attacked in a "tech raid" and most everyone looks the other way? At what point, or number of nations, does a tech raid become a declaration of war? I remember it used to be five... then ten... then twenty... are we at fifty now? 39 nations is an alliance, and when they are attacked in a coordinated effort by another group of nations (size notwithstanding), that's a DoW in my book, not a tech raid.

However, this may just be semantics at this point. Carry on.

[HellAngel]

Wouldnt have expected it to be any different, and since Athens is backing down, everything is cleared up. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth that MK is now publicly backing things we fought together against in the Karma war, but i have no insight on CnG internals, im just going to assume you gave them their paddling internally.

[Crowdog07]

To everyone who's saying we're defending them and letting them get away with it, (I've read through page 7 at this point) you should know we held our treaty with them before this thread. Before this thread, we still would stand in front of anyone looking to engage Athens militarily. Before this thread, we were the same as during and after this thread, but for those who were concerned or curious Archon has "fed the peanut gallery."

For those saying "we aren't holding Athens accountable," you're an idiot. MK gov has made it clear there is stuff being done in private channels that would warrant a "private channels ftw" response from the OWF. There are more options to holding an alliance accountable than releasing them to the wolves. If you feel like Athens' consequence should be open war or a "tech raid" then by all means, I cannot do anything to stop you. But for every action made, the alliance to make that move will be held accountable. That was the case before this issue, and remains that way now.

Gotta love mob rule though. Jeez Louise.

[Xiphosis]

We could all save ourselves a lot of trouble if we'd just recognize that most tech raids amount to wars these days. Raids haven't been raids for a long time now. *

*[OOC] With the addition of the rule preventing raiders from stealing tech from near-deletion nations, in addition to the search-by-strength and AA function, tech raiding was basically forced to shift to active nations - and that's war. Raiding involved hitting people who weren't there anymore. But it's far from tech raiders fault it came to that. Very few of us hit actives back when they weren't the only thing available. Tagged because it's discussing game mechanics, case anyone's wondering. [/OOC]

Wouldnt have expected it to be any different, and since Athens is backing down, everything is cleared up. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth that MK is now publicly backing things we fought together against in the Karma war, but i have no insight on CnG internals, im just going to assume you gave them their paddling internally.

I can think of no higher form of tyranny than dictating a man's morality to him.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Xiphosis

[AVFC1]

Wouldnt have expected it to be any different, and since Athens is backing down, everything is cleared up. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth that MK is now publicly backing things we fought together against in the Karma war, but i have no insight on CnG internals, im just going to assume you gave them their paddling internally.

We're not backing their actions whatsoever, we're simply stating that we will defend them should any oppurtunistic alliances decide to use this as a reason to attack Athens even though they are not involved.

What would you do in this situation? Would you just cancel the treaty and leave them to the dogs? (I certainly expect and hope not)

[HellAngel]

We're not backing their actions whatsoever, we're simply stating that we will defend them should any oppurtunistic alliances decide to use this as a reason to attack Athens even though they are not involved.

What would you do in this situation? Would you just cancel the treaty and leave them to the dogs? (I certainly expect and hope not)

I said this because the comments of MK members in the original thread indicated otherwise, I am *very* glad MK apparently isnt backing it anymore.

And i'd pretty much do the same thing you guys did with the exception of telling my members to not comment on the issue until it has been investigated. You can very easily tread into mines in such discussions. Also, i wouldnt have made this announcement because it kinda seems redundant. Of course anyone would expect MK to back Athens should it really come to a war.

However, afaik you only have an optional aggression clause, and seeing as this was aggressive action by Athens, you wouldnt be required to step in, in my understanding at least. But thats a whole different discussion... in the end i know one doesnt want his friends to get curbstomped, no matter the treaty aspects.

[AVFC1]

I said this because the comments of MK members in the original thread indicated otherwise, I am *very* glad MK apparently isnt backing it anymore.

And i'd pretty much do the same thing you guys did with the exception of telling my members to not comment on the issue until it has been investigated. You can very easily tread into mines in such discussions. Also, i wouldnt have made this announcement because it kinda seems redundant. Of course anyone would expect MK to back Athens should it really come to a war.

Well apparently it sadly isnt clear to all the people querying Archon and threatening to attack Athens

However, afaik you only have an optional aggression clause, and seeing as this was aggressive action by Athens, you wouldnt be required to step in, in my understanding at least. But thats a whole different discussion... in the end i know one doesnt want his friends to get curbstomped, no matter the treaty aspects.

C&G is an MADP bloc, but we mean we will defend them from outside attacks anyway, which would activate the defensive clause of our treaty.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I don't think anyone doubted your commitment to your allies. MK have always made good on their word.

[Tromp]

Oh my, so much posturing... So many crocodile tears... So many moralists...

These comments really made my day.

Respectable position though, MK.

[Chalaskan]

I don't think anyone doubted your commitment to your allies. MK have always made good on their word.

That is a good thing . I like it like that....slow motion fo me.

[Iosif]

Archon is Archon.

poor play = poor play

Mind-boggling show of brutal logic in this very post

[elpadrino]

o/ Mk it´s always great to see someone not bailing on their allies when things go wrong

also it seems that the Athens drama is over so now we will be back at our collecting taxes & paying bills daily routine

[Tequila Mockingbird]

Guys guys guys, you're all forgetting who the common enemy is here, weeaboo fine gentlemen.

[Bob Janova]

MK, you are a credit to the bloc. Athens are lucky to have allies like you, and I hope (and am confident) that you and the other C&Gers are making them put their mistake right (paying reps, no repeats, etc). The anger and bloodlust may be righteous but your protection of Athens at this time is honourable.

[Louisa]

I almost feel sorry for all the people who wanted some action and now have been cruelly cheated. We must schedule a new event next week to make it up to them. Maybe a Purple or Pink affair? They are always popular I hear.

Jeez Louise.

I would be ever so grateful if you the next time that you take my name in vain would have the courtesy to at least spell it right, you rapscallion. )):

[Deadshot]

See above. Praising one, bashing the other, is just a sad and low attempt at manipulation. If this was coming from people with clean histories, it'd be one thing, but virtually everyone who drops the line has a dirty past, and it makes it incredibly shallow. An ivory tower is a joke if you've already sunk far.

As I said the last time we were in PM, I don't despise NSO. I don't despise your former membership in Continuum, either, but that doesn't remove it as ammunition when it comes to jokes (which that was, by the by). And I honestly could care less who you insult. We're all free men at the end of the day, that's sort of the point.

Regarding the first paragraph, I am praising the actions of the first alliance, not necessarily the alliance itself. I think quite a few members of MK are jackasses, while others are good people. I will say that regardless of their NS or anything else. I can and will praise any alliance that does something I think is a good move, regardless of how I feel about their membership or even their leaders. Also, I wasn't insulting Athens willy nilly. I disagree with the move they made, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth, however I know Londo is a great leader and they will right the ship. I have never made it a habit to go into other people's threads and insult and belittle them without cause. The one time I did, a year ago, I ended up pm'ing Starfox and apologizing for it. I don't really have use for an ivory tower. My past has taught me the error of might makes right arguments, and of fighting a smaller alliance simply because we can.

Also I didn't take the second quoted paragraph as a joke, my apologies. I think I am done with this thread for now, I shouldn't be posting this early when I haven't slept yet

[Locke]

Let me preface what I am about to say with the following:

I haven't read the entire thread. I intend to, but it's 5am here. I'll get to it tomorrow. However, what Archon said on Page 2 struck me (if this has already been covered, feel free just to point me to where it has been and I'll be on my way)

Bolded emphasis is mine.

Now, I'm not looking to take sides, this is more of a question to the class, really. What number is too high? How many people does an alliance need now before they can be attacked in a "tech raid" and most everyone looks the other way? At what point, or number of nations, does a tech raid become a declaration of war? I remember it used to be five... then ten... then twenty... are we at fifty now? 39 nations is an alliance, and when they are attacked in a coordinated effort by another group of nations (size notwithstanding), that's a DoW in my book, not a tech raid.

However, this may just be semantics at this point. Carry on.

I believe Archon already covered this earlier, saying that it was merely a literary flourish, meant so that he wouldn't use the word alliance so much and to show the size of the group, being more than, say, a 5 man alliance.

[ImaNewbie]

We do not leave our allies behind.

Except for January 2008

Edited November 15, 2009 by ImaNewbie

[eyriq]

I can think of no higher form of tyranny than dictating a man's morality to him.

Not a big fan of the rule of law?

[Hell Scream]

Who is stupid enough to attack Athens?

They will just grow more if you attack them!

[scythegfx]

I am humbled. I am ashamed that my actions have brought things to this pass. We will do whatever is needed to make things right.

This is good to see. Hail Athens, Hail Londo!

Archon, I love you dearly, but I will go through you if you stand in my way... but you know that already. I am tired of the only alliances being accountable for their deliberate actions as being ones that have Order in their name.

The man makes a point.

I love the needless posturing.

I love useless posts.

[Stonewall14]

I don't doubt that you were upset, but Athens was perfectly fine with blowing everyone off until it became clear someone might actually "do something about it." There were plenty of them on last night who made their lack of remorse very obvious.

If they feel remorse now it's because they just made complete @#$% of themselves in front of the entire world and screwed over all their allies, which only happened because of the public backlash.

You Sir win the thread(s) IMO...o/ Heft

[Amossio]

perfect solution, just let KoN tech raid Athens and FoB nations of their choice for a couple of days......

[flak attack]

Not whining. When Moo made a mistake and hit OV, he realized his mistake and tried to work something out. The above deal is more generous than what Archon offered for one day of war.

If this was Athens' umpteenth time doing this, as it was with NPO, our response would be different. People make mistakes. You don't crucify them for it the first time. You help them fix the mistake instead.

Its impossible for a member of an alliance to have an opinion that is contrary to the overall alliance policy? Oh my, gotta toe the party line, can't show any of my true feelings or thoughts, must hide! Although I'll admit, the ODN bashing is getting a bit excessive, just a bit passe. They chose their path, they've made it abundantly clear, they don't have any ties of note left to the "other" side, they have to fight now, and thats good for them.

Calling out an ally of yours for being unwilling to fight for their friends does, however, lead me to question why you would sign the treaty in the first place.

Edited November 15, 2009 by flak attack