Zhadum reveals NPO information: organized logs

[kingzog]

I read the logs. Then I read this thread.

As far back as March I heard that reasons were being sought to remove Zhadum from a position of authority in the NPO, if not from the alliance entirely, so I can't say I'm surprised that he was in fact removed. It was simply a matter of time.

I see nothing new here. Zha tells the truth in a few places, he tells his version of the truth in a few more, but none of what he says should come as a shock.

[Blue Lightning]

I've seen comments regarding the issue going both ways by people on both sides of the conflict. I think all the spin, combined with all the other conversations going on around that time and all the pretending different things occurred or didn't occur, or needed to be conveniently switched around in various time lines, to different groups managed to scramble the participant's collective memory. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter much, I don't think one particular meeting would cause or prevent what happened.

I don't think it's the propaganda clouding our recollection as much as there was all just a bit too much going on to remember the specifics of what went on and when. Me and Dan could probably look up the time line using our forums but we're both lazy as hell. Suffice to say that without the secret meeting taking place TOP would almost certainly have left the Continuum anyway. Though it might have been something of a catalyst.

This is actually a pretty decent account of things from my perspective too if you swap "MHA" with "TOP" and "the Order at the End of the Universe" with "The Non-Treaty Treaty":

It's no secret that the MHA had been talking about leaving Q/remaining for a lot of time (we go at TOP speed sometimes), but we weren't yet decided when the "sekrit meeting" happened. I honestly think that we would have left anyway, but that event almost certainly "helped" us to decide about it. We weren't going to delete the individual treaty with the NPO, anyway.

I also believe that even our continued participation in tC wouldn't have changed much of where we eventually stood, as that block was a MDP, not a MADP. And the Order at the End of the Universe was representing our relationship with the NPO much better than Q, anyway.

Something smells fishy, and I'm not talking about the contents of Baldrick's apple crumble.

OOC: Nice reference. Blackadder is awesome.

Who was NPO to tell people not to aid ex-FAN nations on a list that wasn't ever really made public while NPO was still at war with FAN?

Don't try to spin this because at least Karma wasn't looking to pummel people down over it.

Who are you to tell people that Karma wasn't looking to pummel Polaris down over it?

[Doitzel]

I quite agree.

Why ex members seem to think leaving give them a carte blanche to slag off the alliance which kept them, protected their nations, and gave them so much is still a mystery to me.

You know, I was a top 100 nation until NPO led me to my first war. It was just a downward slide from there. The few dozen nukes I took for GGA's ego didn't help -- actually I continue to suffer from that as green team still has not bounced back.

Like Musso said, none of us are saints. You'll notice that those of us who were actually active in trying to affect change within are all -- *gasp* -- not there anymore, while those who were content to sit ignorant in the Body Republic without a bloody clue of the extent of corruption of the government (like you!) throw around platitudes and neologisms to obscure everything we did do. Sure, I'm a traitor and a deserter and a [whatever else you call me]. Not to Pacific, but to those who masquerade under its banner on the shoulders of the better men they cast down.

Most of us haven't left Pacific. Pacific left us.

[Ragashingo]

You didn't actually read the discussion. Those were not alliances friendly to NPO at one point.

What do you mean by "at one point"? GATO and the NPO were close allies long long ago.

[Doitzel]

What do you mean by "at one point"? GATO and the NPO were close allies long long ago.

In fairness... that was a totally different world. That triumvirate (NPO/GATO/Legion) didn't last very long and the wrecking of that relationship was as much on GATO as it was on NPO -- especially when the former set the precedent for MDPs transcending other treaties by attacking NPO in spite of the Dove Doctrine.

[Geoffron X]

Are we seriously arguing over something as basic as not aiding people at war? Seriously. You outta feel pretty stupid over this one.

Considering they aided GR, who was, gasp, at war with us... yeah, I'm arguing about it.

[Starfox101]

I am sorry we followed the MADP(ie we didnt have a choice if requested for help) bit of WUT to attack ve on the request of GGA, I know alliances following their treaties is a rare sight but damn getting slack for following treaties must be a new trend around here

Alliances following treaties hasn't been a rare sight since the GATO-1V war. Which was, a pretty long time ago.

[pezstar]

Considering they aided GR, who was, gasp, at war with us... yeah, I'm arguing about it.

You had just as much right to do something about it as Karma did. Perhaps your alliance's think tank was too busy reading spy reports to realize that.

[ChairmanHal]

Sure. But the actual wording appeared carefully crafted to leave that only implied, and leave Pacifica the option to interpret it the other way.

I'm sure in this imaginary world where the GGA *alone* wanted to kill VE and thought they could strongarm Pacifica into backing them in a war Pacifica did NOT want themselves Pacifican leadership would not have been shy about yanking the leash a bit.

The WUT was written by victorious powers proclaiming their supremacy on Planet Bob. I can't speak as to whether NPO had ulterior motives or if they even crafted the wording of that section. I can tell you that every single member of the WUT met regularly with every single other member and collectively in IRC channels. My sense is that there was no cancellation clause simply because no one ever considered that anyone would want to leave the WUT and those that eventually did...well history speaks for itself up until mid-August 2007.

EDIT:

II. Establishment of Unity This pact will be in effect immediately and unto perpetuity.

Seems clear to me. As with Hotel California, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

FYI: Anyone who tells you that GGA strong armed NPO, GOONS, FAN, \m/, MDC, and Gen[m]ay into declaring war on *anyone* is either making up stories in their head or "misremembering". Same can be said of anyone that believes that GGA back in the old WUT days was nothing more or less but totally and completely loyal to NPO. Could be that NPO & Co. simply wanted to help out their ally GGA in their latest venture, could be that NPO wanted to rule Green through using GGA as its surrogate. It matters little now.

Edited September 30, 2009 by ChairmanHal

[Eretz Yisrael]

you just had to go and flip out, didn't ya zha...

[SiCkO]

Oh, you're washed up. Whether or not you realize it is another story. Everyone in the Cyberverse hates you, and the only people who had the stomach to tolerate you have now turned their backs on you. You're done. Finished. History. And not a moment too soon.

the legion doesnt

Zha helped us out when we were under NPO's boot. We dont forget people that help us.

[HeinousOne]

the legion doesnt

Zha helped us out when we were under NPO's boot. We dont forget people that help us.

There you go Zha, your next home. Enjoy.

[Alan Shore]

There you go Zha, your next home. Enjoy.

Very much considering it, if Legion would have me. I know these words would have caused massive mental trauma to any who read them but a year and a half ago but Legion is my favorite alliance in CN right now.

As for the expected drama thread, it has been called off on account of Blackbirds. Might as well have fun here, there won't be any more.

[TehChron]

The WUT was written by victorious powers proclaiming their supremacy on Planet Bob. I can't speak as to whether NPO had ulterior motives or if they even crafted the wording of that section. I can tell you that every single member of the WUT met regularly with every single other member and collectively in IRC channels. My sense is that there was no cancellation clause simply because no one ever considered that anyone would want to leave the WUT and those that eventually did...well history speaks for itself up until mid-August 2007.

August 2007 was post GWI, genius. We were hardly victorious at that point.

Like Musso said, none of us are saints. You'll notice that those of us who were actually active in trying to affect change within are all -- *gasp* -- not there anymore, while those who were content to sit ignorant in the Body Republic without a bloody clue of the extent of corruption of the government (like you!) throw around platitudes and neologisms to obscure everything we did do. Sure, I'm a traitor and a deserter and a [whatever else you call me]. Not to Pacific, but to those who masquerade under its banner on the shoulders of the better men they cast down.

Most of us haven't left Pacific. Pacific left us.

You know, Doitzel, your description of folks who were just sitting around with their heads in the sand also applies to me, and quite frankly, I only was like that due to my own colossal ignorance at the time. Of all the people who were around at the time and commented upon my (nonsense) expulsion, you and Veng were the ones who got it right about me.

Moreover, you are right now as well. The corruption at the upper ranks of that alliance are truly terrible, and I hope it is burned out in the near future. I was tossed out by them after having already lost my figurehead position which I had no desire to work for anyway, and expelled on the first convenient excuse by the reining clique.

They left us behind, and took Pacifica to a place we couldn't follow.

[Delta1212]

You were still planning on doing another thread? Why?

[TehChron]

You were still planning on doing another thread? Why?

Because he didnt start this one, clearly.

I did say it was a bootleg, after all.

[Alan Shore]

You were still planning on doing another thread? Why?

I didn't do this one. As for why, find my first post here if you want to know.

[Sandwich Controversy]

August 2007 was post GWI, genius. We were hardly victorious at that point.

No it wasn't. Well, I suppose it was TECHNICALLY post-GWI, but it was more than a year after.

[Essenia]

August 2007 was post GWI, genius. We were hardly victorious at that point.

They left us behind, and took Pacifica to a place we couldn't follow.

You're both badly wrong. August 2007 was the end of WUT domination, the tail end of the uncertain period between GWIII and the UJW. It was very much the powerful bloc in the game, even if the cracks were showing.

As for Hal, WUT was the brainchild of GOONS around October/November 06. As Chron said, hardly victorious at that point.

[HeinousOne]

Very much considering it, if Legion would have me. I know these words would have caused massive mental trauma to any who read them but a year and a half ago but Legion is my favorite alliance in CN right now.

As for the expected drama thread, it has been called off on account of Blackbirds. Might as well have fun here, there won't be any more.

If I am anything of value to this world then I would consider myself a journalist and hopefully a somewhat nonbiased one (no one is unbiased). Despite everything else I do hope you can find yourself a home and maybe even put this chapter behind you. As that journalist I am saddened to hear you are no longer going to make your own thread statement. So be it, probably for the best.

[Ragashingo]

In fairness... that was a totally different world. That triumvirate (NPO/GATO/Legion) didn't last very long and the wrecking of that relationship was as much on GATO as it was on NPO -- especially when the former set the precedent for MDPs transcending other treaties by attacking NPO in spite of the Dove Doctrine.

Well that whole situation was very screwed up. This list of things everyone did wrong back then isn't really something that needs to be revisited again. I do agree that that triumvirate didn't last long. Heck I'm not sure it really ever existed in the first place. Sure there were treaties and doctrines but did any of the three sides REALLY trust the others?

[TehChron]

You're both badly wrong. August 2007 was the end of WUT domination, the tail end of the uncertain period between GWIII and the UJW. It was very much the powerful bloc in the game, even if the cracks were showing.

As for Hal, WUT was the brainchild of GOONS around October/November 06. As Chron said, hardly victorious at that point.

If I cant remember how to spell words, how do you expect me to spell numbers right?

[Essenia]

If I cant remember how to spell words, how do you expect me to spell numbers right?

What does August 2006 have to do with it? That's not when WUT was written. I could only assume you were responding to his comments.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Essenia

[TehChron]

What does August 2006 have to do with it? That's not when WUT was written. I could only assume you were responding to his comments.

I was, I meant that I had misunderstood it as being "august 2006", not "2007", despite that being what I typed. If you make that one minor difference, my post makes complete sense as being post-GWI.

Regardless, Hal's post still makes no sense.

[Doitzel]

you just had to go and flip out, didn't ya zha...

It takes a very special person to beg to be let back in after being expelled, Veng.

Well that whole situation was very screwed up. This list of things everyone did wrong back then isn't really something that needs to be revisited again. I do agree that that triumvirate didn't last long. Heck I'm not sure it really ever existed in the first place. Sure there were treaties and doctrines but did any of the three sides REALLY trust the others?

I doubt it. I wasn't active in any of those affairs but the impression I always got was that it was just a matter of convenience, which is supported by how easily it all fell apart.