The GMs Court

[Zoot Zoot]

Print screen button on your keyboard

PRT SCR it will say on the key

the open paint
press Ctrl - V to paste it in
save, upload to photobucket or image shack and them copy the code into the chatbox and click post

[Ryan Milley]

I don't see PrtScr on my keyboard.

Edit:found it

Edited July 4, 2010 by Ryan Milley

[Ryan Milley]

Got it done. Will get in on here after I go swimming.

[Vedran]

What happens when a spy roll goes through, but the attempt would probably fail due to too many factors working against it (i.e. sneaking a guy into a heavily and very comprehensively guarded fortress) or when success is possible but the "attacker" fails to RP it correctly (for example the said fortress is quite possible to infiltrate, but the person RPs the infiltration in such a way that they get caught)?

Would the attempt succeed anyway? Is that fair? I mean, the spy roll system was created so people couldn't just go "I'm in your nation now" without any RP. And having spy rolls being the sole determinant, regardless of RP, of whether an operation succeeds or not is kind of defeating the purpose the system was implemented in the first place.

So maybe the spy roll system should be used to determine actions based on chance and not whole operations. For example, a roll happens when only a percentage of ships are being boarded and searched to determine whether the "attacker's" one will get stopped, or to determine whether the "attacker" will get caught sneaking through a certain area. If all of the ships in the hypothetical scenario above are being searched, then I think it should be up to RP and player ingenuity to survive the situation.

Or would that be too much micromanagement and making too much work for the GMs? I really don't know, so I'd like some more opinions on this. Because I think the system needs to be changed at least some, right now it seems to me like it's "if the roll succeeds, I succeed" which is only a small improvement on the previous situation of "I'm a badass so I succeed"

Thoughts?

[king of cochin]

I agree Vedran that the spy roll system needs a little change, however there are some glaring issues for the both the "For" and "Against" arguments.

We could establish a system by which spy roll is a purely probability determinator by which the spying player finds out the counter espionage tactics RPd by his opponent, thinks out a counter, finds out the probability factor in the case and get the GMs to roll the probability of success. For example, if the defender says his electricity grids have remote connectivity via some secure wireless network, the spying player can ask for a probability of a hack. This means that there is an actual thought process involved to defeat the counter espionage systems used by your opponent than just go "Spy Roll Win."

However the alternate argument is that the defender may not even respond to the spying player asking for the defensive measures used in order to prevent himself from being attacked against, the basic argument against planned RP. If someone does not want to permit an attack against his nation, he can simply refuse to cooperate with the spying player. In that case of course unilateral GM spy roll should be done to prevent that abuse.

However I would like to suggest that if ever a defending player asks that his counter espionage be tackled RPwise, before or after a roll, the spying operation should continue only after the spying player finds the logical loophole in the counter espionage strategy. This amendment would mean that people cannot just go "Spy Roll" but actually have to "think" out a strategy against the opponent, thus giving greater credence to the RP part of it.

[Il Terra Di Agea]

[quote name='Vedran' date='04 July 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1278267799' post='2359567']
What happens when a spy roll goes through, but the attempt would probably fail due to too many factors working against it (i.e. sneaking a guy into a heavily and very comprehensively guarded fortress) or when success is possible but the "attacker" fails to RP it correctly (for example the said fortress is quite possible to infiltrate, but the person RPs the infiltration in such a way that they get caught)?[/quote]

With the current system, he would get in.

[quote name='Vedran' date='04 July 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1278267799' post='2359567']
Would the attempt succeed anyway? Is that fair? I mean, the spy roll system was created so people couldn't just go "I'm in your nation now" without any RP. And having spy rolls being the sole determinant, regardless of RP, of whether an operation succeeds or not is kind of defeating the purpose the system was implemented in the first place.[/quote]

Technically, yes. Nope. I agree that that was the intention of the spy roll system, and that, at it's current state, it creates an unfair advantage to lazier, or higher NS RPers who would rather just win without work than RP anything. That's all the reason why, personally, I would rather be contacted if someone wanted to do a spy operation on me, so I can talk it over, tell them what they would go through, and use spy rolls to determine things like cracking into safes, whether or not a concealed weapon makes it through customs, whether a sniper can get away after firing a shot, etc., if at all.

[quote name='Vedran' date='04 July 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1278267799' post='2359567']
So maybe the spy roll system should be used to determine actions based on chance and not whole operations. For example, a roll happens when only a percentage of ships are being boarded and searched to determine whether the "attacker's" one will get stopped, or to determine whether the "attacker" will get caught sneaking through a certain area. If all of the ships in the hypothetical scenario above are being searched, then I think it should be up to RP and player ingenuity to survive the situation.

Or would that be too much micromanagement and making too much work for the GMs? I really don't know, so I'd like some more opinions on this. Because I think the system needs to be changed at least some, right now it seems to me like it's "if the roll succeeds, I succeed" which is only a small improvement on the previous situation of "I'm a badass so I succeed"

Thoughts?
[/quote]
I agree strongly with your proposal, and would like to see it implemented, however, I think it raises the issue of people meta-gaming heavily; "I search all the people at the meeting because I know you have a spy about!" or "Your person is the one in thirty who gets randomly screened for illegal goods!" or "RAWRG I CAN TELL YOU ARE UP TO NO GOOD DESPITE HAVING NO IC EVIDENCE GO AWAY!!!"

That said, no, I don't think it would be too much micromanagement, and I think it would reduce the spyroll spam we have now, also allotting for failed missions, which never happen with the current system.

[Ryan Milley]

Two rolls for Gather Intelligence on Girltopia
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/RyanMilley/Spyroll1.jpg[/IMG]
That's 50% if you can't tell (and yes my spies are female).

Sorry if it's crap. It's my first time with photobucket and taking screen pictures.

Question:If someone is in peace mode can you still use the other options on them in RP or do I them to wait for them to realize how worse off your nation is in peace mode?

Edited July 4, 2010 by Ryan Milley

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Ryan Milley' date='04 July 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1278276405' post='2359630']
Two rolls for Gather Intelligence on Girltopia
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/RyanMilley/Spyroll1.jpg[/IMG]
That's 50% if you can't tell (and yes my spies are female).

Sorry if it's crap. It's my first time with photobucket and taking screen pictures.

Question:If someone is in peace mode can you still use the other options on them in RP or do I them to wait for them to realize how worse off your nation is in peace mode?
[/quote]
Unfortunately, I can't work with that screen, as I can't see the timestamp.
Please redo it and try to keep it readable.

[Ryan Milley]

[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/RyanMilley/Spyroll1v2.jpg[/IMG]
Should be good now.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Ryan Milley

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Ryan Milley' date='04 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1278279864' post='2359668']
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/RyanMilley/Spyroll1v2.jpg[/IMG]
Should be good now.
[/quote]
Fail: 1-50
Win: 51-100

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Lynneth_del_Serpentas/AE/Thing266.png[/IMG][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Lynneth_del_Serpentas/AE/Thing267.png[/IMG]
Once a loser, once a winner.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

All I know is if we maintain this system as is.. when I top off my spies people are going to wish it didn't work this way.

[Uberstein]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' date='04 July 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1278303972' post='2359959']
All I know is if we maintain this system as is.. when I top off my spies people are going to wish it didn't work this way.
[/quote]
I have argued against the $%&@ed up spy roll system since day one and haven't used a single spy roll myself. If people want to get into my nation they're going to RP it, end of discussion. I don't recognize spy rolls, and I never will. People can !@#$%* at me, not recognize me, throw me out of CNRP, but I stand my ground on this issue.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='BaronUberstein' date='05 July 2010 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1278309094' post='2360061']
I have argued against the $%&@ed up spy roll system since day one and haven't used a single spy roll myself. If people want to get into my nation they're going to RP it, end of discussion. I don't recognize spy rolls, and I never will. People can !@#$%* at me, not recognize me, throw me out of CNRP, but I stand my ground on this issue.
[/quote]

*high fives the screen*

In other news, I have a good way of fixing this spy roll spam. Have them roleplay when they fail as well. Why do they only give us a story when they succeed?

Edited July 5, 2010 by Acca Dacca

[Captain Enema]

or just use the spy rolls for specific actions within the story. Not major actions.. but mission critical actions that include, but are not limited to lock picking, hacking, sneaking past a guard, and so forth.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I think after this last incident I'm going to toss out spy rolls for the U.S. as well as a means of gaining entry because quite frankly the security precautions should have been able to keep out a nuke. They're not easy to smuggle.. at all. All it takes is a Geiger counter.

Some folks think it's egg on my face that I let it happen, but I think it's more egg on their face they'd rather use such a crappy system to do the most unlikely activities. Anyhow, past is the past. Just gives my nation another scar in its history. Old Glory has enough of them already.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='05 July 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1278340504' post='2360242']
or just use the spy rolls for specific actions within the story. Not major actions.. but mission critical actions that include, but are not limited to lock picking, hacking, sneaking past a guard, and so forth.
[/quote]

I agree with you on this, however, what about those people that make up security measures on the spot? Many people do not detail down to the level that you suggest people use spy attacks for, although it would be interesting if people did start doing this.


@Mael: SMH could have gone with using a SDI roll to hit you with the nukes.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Vedran' date='04 July 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1278267799' post='2359567']
What happens when a spy roll goes through, but the attempt would probably fail due to too many factors working against it (i.e. sneaking a guy into a heavily and very comprehensively guarded fortress) or when success is possible but the "attacker" fails to RP it correctly (for example the said fortress is quite possible to infiltrate, but the person RPs the infiltration in such a way that they get caught)?

Would the attempt succeed anyway? Is that fair? I mean, the spy roll system was created so people couldn't just go "I'm in your nation now" without any RP. And having spy rolls being the sole determinant, regardless of RP, of whether an operation succeeds or not is kind of defeating the purpose the system was implemented in the first place.

[b]So maybe the spy roll system should be used to determine actions based on chance and not whole operations. For example, a roll happens when only a percentage of ships are being boarded and searched to determine whether the "attacker's" one will get stopped, or to determine whether the "attacker" will get caught sneaking through a certain area. If all of the ships in the hypothetical scenario above are being searched, then I think it should be up to RP and player ingenuity to survive the situation.
[/b]
Or would that be too much micromanagement and making too much work for the GMs? I really don't know, so I'd like some more opinions on this. Because I think the system needs to be changed at least some, right now it seems to me like it's "if the roll succeeds, I succeed" which is only a small improvement on the previous situation of "I'm a badass so I succeed"

Thoughts?
[/quote]
Actually, that's the way these things are supposed to work [b][color="#ff0000"]NOW[/color][/b]. There is SUPPOSED to be RP, and if you mess it up, regardless of the roll, you fail.

[Mergerberger II]

Question: What is the RP equivalent of the in-game spy option of "Incite Government Propaganda"? How would it be RP'd by the victim?

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' date='05 July 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1278366475' post='2360504']
Question: What is the RP equivalent of the in-game spy option of "Incite Government Propaganda"? How would it be RP'd by the victim?
[/quote]

I've often wondered this as well, I think it would be of a political revolution, so perhaps not spies but some speaker or something that people would RP as their nation goes from democratic, monarchist, etc, to something that the other nation desires. Honestly, for Co-Op stuff, this would be epic RP.

[Shatner]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' date='05 July 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1278367336' post='2360511']
I've often wondered this as well, I think it would be of a political revolution, so perhaps not spies but some speaker or something that people would RP as their nation goes from democratic, monarchist, etc, to something that the other nation desires. Honestly, for Co-Op stuff, this would be epic RP.
[/quote]

I think Botha and Vedran are doing a great job of this in their election thread right now.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Shatner' date='05 July 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1278367544' post='2360514']
I think Botha and Vedran are doing a great job of this in their election thread right now.
[/quote]
Indeed they are.

[Ryan Milley]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='05 July 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1278341487' post='2360254']
I agree with you on this, however, what about those people that make up security measures on the spot? Many people do not detail down to the level that you suggest people use spy attacks for, although it would be interesting if people did start doing this.


@Mael: SMH could have gone with using a SDI roll to hit you with the nukes.
[/quote]
Yeah, we need to fix the spy system. I make a law limiting dugs and then a guy starts shipping them to my country. And just because of that one roll, he got past customs 15 miles out at sea (edge of Alaskan Union waters), and know I have to roll every day until I stop the drug traders.

[Ryan Milley]

[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/RyanMilley/Spyroll2.jpg[/IMG]
10%
Looking to stop drug traders.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='05 July 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1278341487' post='2360254']
I agree with you on this, however, what about those people that make up security measures on the spot? Many people do not detail down to the level that you suggest people use spy attacks for, although it would be interesting if people did start doing this.


@Mael: SMH could have gone with using a SDI roll to hit you with the nukes.
[/quote]

He'd have also had to deliver them by conventional means, which would have been far easier to trace-back and detect. Nuke via spies is not an available IG espionage mission. I let it happen for the sake of the RP, but I'm beginning to regret that given the way people are behaving out of character and in character. Pretending like I'm a moron for allowing it to occur when it's only by my own good graces that it did occur and as if they had achieved something special in its delivery. I've never been met by such arrogance for something I allowed someone else to achieve. I guess I'm going to have to start protesting and taking the toys away and ooc !@#$%* like everyone else to get people not to act like genuine jerks.

Next time you guys want to do a story at someone else's expense, you can pick someone else to do it with. I'm sick of the immaturity being demonstrated.

Also, I agree that people shouldn't be able to make up security out of thin air. Note that I now have a documented history of security thanks to this event that people will have to recognize going forward.

I mean, your reactions have ranged from gloating that I can't do anything about it.. when I permitted it to happen oocly for the sake of a good ic story.. to telling me I should investigate the incident more and then giving me absolutely no story hooks to proceed with any kind of real investigation as if you expect me to read your minds.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Ryan Milley' date='05 July 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1278375738' post='2360590']
10%
Looking to stop drug traders.
[/quote]

Also, if you're successful, then you can't trace them back to me