Poaching from our ranks- NSO

[dejarue]

To those continuing to spout about this being a cause for war you can either put up or shut up for all I care. I believe this thread has run it's course.

Here we go again.

[Paint Your Target]

Its simple, lets not dress this up

what we see here could set a real tone for post-NPO fall politics

We have one side, clearly superior in strenght, quite deliberately provoking a neutral alliance, in the knowledge their allies give them sufficient force to bully and act as they please.

The issue then, is more one of whether CN is still a place where treaty partners are used as a cover to commit acts that are underhanded, and cowardly- even when the treaty text doenst give them the legal backing to do so.

Im sure NSO could quite happily take TDO to pieces in a fight, should they decide they are unrepentent, but the question is would they actually be willing to risk a fair, honourable fight?

If it happens, I for one think it would be a good day for Cybernations politics

[cookavich]

And feeling that it's unwarranted means you're condoning the behavior.

Or it means we don't want people attacking our friends. That's a weird and new concept.

[Nizzle]

Or it's saying it doesn't warrant a declaration of war.

Oh, certainly not. I don't think it ever has.

Or it means we don't want people attacking our friends. That's a weird and new concept.

Perhaps you should find less provocative friends?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Nizzle

[dejarue]

Its simple, lets not dress this up

what we see here could set a real tone for post-NPO fall politics

We have one side, clearly superior in strenght, quite deliberately provoking a neutral alliance, in the knowledge their allies give them sufficient force to bully and act as they please.

The issue then, is more one of whether CN is still a place where treaty partners are used as a cover to commit acts that are underhanded, and cowardly- even when the treaty text doenst give them the legal backing to do so.

Im sure NSO could quite happily take TDO to pieces in a fight, should they decide they are unrepentent, but the question is would they actually be willing to risk a fair, honourable fight?

If it happens, I for one think it would be a good day for Cybernations politics

You know TDO is 700 nations strong, right?

[Corinan]

Its simple, lets not dress this up

what we see here could set a real tone for post-NPO fall politics

We have one side, clearly superior in strenght, quite deliberately provoking a neutral alliance, in the knowledge their allies give them sufficient force to bully and act as they please.

Have you actually looked at our two alliances? TDO is quite a bit bigger than us. Please do study up a bit before you post, sir.

[Neo Uruk]

Let it go or declare on NSO yourselves. There certainly has to be something more interesting than posting from people who sit there.

[Nizzle]

Have you actually looked at our two alliances? TDO is quite a bit bigger than us. Please do study up a bit before you post, sir.

Two alliances?

I think it would be better served to look at TDO vs. Frostbite. No?

[Heracles the Great]

Or it means we don't want people attacking our friends. That's a weird and new concept.

Perhaps your friends shouldn't go trampling on the sovereignty of other alliances if they don't want to get attacked

[Heracles the Great]

To those continuing to spout about this being a cause for war you can either put up or shut up for all I care. I believe this thread has run it's course. The same tired faces keep posting the same tired lines in hopes of the same tired responses. It has started to bore me.

So then you are refusing to conceed to TDO's demands? Or was that concession of regret to the way the world reacted to your actions the closest you could come to mustering an apology?

[jesterxo]

Don't forget the Terra-Cotta pact. (everyone forgets that one).

[x Tela x]

I promise if TDO recruited from NSO's ranks, they'd be getting rolled. The opposite is not true, because as the recruiting PM says, neutrals don't have the stones to retaliate. Neutral doesn't mean coward, contrary to popular belief.

[Corinan]

Two alliances?

I think it would be better served to look at TDO vs. Frostbite. No?

I'm pretty certain that TDO has allies. Am I mistaken? I've seen plenty of posturing and puffed up chests from people that I assumed to be their allies. Was I wrong?

[cookavich]

Seeing as TDO perceived the actions of NSO as aggressive acts that breached their sovereignty, they would be defending themselves if they retaliated. It is up to them to decide what form of retaliation is warrented should the NSO fail to conceed to their demands. The NpO would have a hard time spinning their way into the battle as they'd either be going in via an oA, meaning they condone the actions commited by the NSO (despite many saying otherwise) or through a oD since it's obvious that the NSO would have brought it upon themselves.

But go ahead and try to spin your web of propoganda so that TDO are the evil juggernaut and the NpO is protecting it's poor lil friend who is continously bullied by the horrible neutrals...

Few would actually see such a war as defensive in nature. I've never seen someone declare a defensive war for something that wasn't an actual attack. Either way, lets keep the hypothetical out of the discussion. If worst comes to worst, you'll find out what the NpO's stance on the matter is.

I've already stated that I think the NSO is in the wrong, and of course I don't appreciate TDO for making a sticky situation for my ally... but by all mean continue with your mischaracterization of what I'm saying.

Edited July 3, 2009 by cookavich

[Heracles the Great]

I'm pretty certain that TDO has allies. Am I mistaken? I've seen plenty of posturing and puffed up chests from people that I assumed to be their allies. Was I wrong?

So one must be an ally to express their opinion (or distaste) for a crime commited? You're logic is profound...

[ChairmanHal]

I never once agreed nor disagreed that what NSO did was right. I am arguing TDO's handling of the situation in that they did not get in direct contact with NSO's leader before bringing this here. If Ivan had blown them off in a PM, then by all means this would be the best option left to deal with the issue, save a DoW.

You're almost there...

Had TDO's only attempts at contacting NSO been a single PM to his nation that he hadn't responded to 24 hours later, then the "but I simply don't check my nation every day" defense would have merit. It would have further merit if we were talking about some peon of a nation leader that was inexperienced and barely remembers the URL of his alliance's web site, let alone visits on a daily basis.

But part of the pleasure of being Ivan Moldavi is that people look up and respect you just for being Ivan Moldavi (they may also fear you, but that's another story). With that comes the burden of being held to a higher standard of behavior and further the burden of command.

Bottom line, Ivan Moldavi doesn't get to even appear to be avoiding communications with an alliance that may have a serious issue with NSO. The recruiting effort was clearly planned and organized in advance and would therefore have to have government approval. Ivan has not so far as I know denied even once knowing that this recruiting push among neutral alliances existed. Therefore, he had to know he would be getting contacted at some point by an irate TDO member and would have been expecting it.

Back to the cell phone that "wasn't there". PMs and lower government officials have this lovely feature that allows them to detect the source of incoming messages and allows you as an alliance leader to avoid getting the message for a while. That's important, whether you are dodging the 6th small alliance leader this week looking for a protectorate (true story) or hoping that the poaching your alliance is conducting bears some fruit before you have to shut down the operation.

No, TDO handled the situation just fine. I don't think they'll take it any further, but that is a separate issue.

[Sal Paradise]

You have to be a thug to not like someone involving themselves in your business?

Yes. That's precisely what I said.

[jesterxo]

I'm pretty certain that TDO has allies. Am I mistaken? I've seen plenty of posturing and puffed up chests from people that I assumed to be their allies. Was I wrong?

TDO is neutral... do you know what neutral means? We don't align to anybody other then ourselves. We have no treaties, no MDPs, no reason that anyone would come to our aid.

There may be people with puffed chests, but thats more got to do with how you've gone about things.

[Heracles the Great]

Few would actually see such a war as defensive in nature. I've never seen someone declare a defensive for for something that wasn't an actual attack. Either way, lets keep the hypothetical out of the discussion. If worst comes to worst, you'll find out what the NpO's stance on the matter is.

I've already stated that I think the NSO is in the wrong, and of course I don't appreciate TDO for making a sticky situation for my ally... but by all mean continue with your mischaracterization of what I'm saying.

You don't appreciate TDO making a sticky situation for your ally? You mean them attempting back channels and being met with aggression and disdain and then being ignored so they take it to the OWF? Oh the horror... Perhaps your ally should stop committing actions that put themselves in these "sticky situations."

[Nizzle]

Few would actually see such a war as defensive in nature. I've never seen someone declare a defensive for for something that wasn't an actual attack. Either way, lets keep the hypothetical out of the discussion. If worst comes to worst, you'll find out what the NpO's stance on the matter is.

The distinction has never needed to be made, though it has been stated in previous DoWs preceding dog piles under our old regime.

I've already stated that I think the NSO is in the wrong, and of course I don't appreciate TDO for making a sticky situation for my ally... but by all mean continue with your mischaracterization of what I'm saying.

There's an interesting statement if I ever saw one. NSO is wrong, but TDO made the sticky situation.

[William Blake]

So then you are refusing to conceed to TDO's demands? Or was that concession of regret to the way the world reacted to your actions the closest you could come to mustering an apology?

I believe it was. That and the numerous posts about on going discussions between TDO and NSO. There really isn't anything new, so I guess I'd wait for some word from TDO or just assume this is finished like it appears to be.

[Torak]

Dam 45 pages and this is still going on? You guys are a bunch of war hungry !@#$%^&*.

[lonewolfe2015]

Didn't some alliance break away from NSO and attempt to poach members? And NSO immediately went to war and destroyed the alliance for doing that? Or was the war about something more than just stealing members?

[youwish959]

You're almost there...

Had TDO's only attempts at contacting NSO been a single PM to his nation that he hadn't responded to 24 hours later, then the "but I simply don't check my nation every day" defense would have merit. It would have further merit if we were talking about some peon of a nation leader that was inexperienced and barely remembers the URL of his alliance's web site, let alone visits on a daily basis.

But part of the pleasure of being Ivan Moldavi is that people look up and respect you just for being Ivan Moldavi (they may also fear you, but that's another story). With that comes the burden of being held to a higher standard of behavior and further the burden of command.

Bottom line, Ivan Moldavi doesn't get to even appear to be avoiding communications with an alliance that may have a serious issue with NSO. The recruiting effort was clearly planned and organized in advance and would therefore have to have government approval. Ivan has not so far as I know denied even once knowing that this recruiting push among neutral alliances existed. Therefore, he had to know he would be getting contacted at some point by an irate TDO member and would have been expecting it.

Back to the cell phone that "wasn't there". PMs and lower government officials have this lovely feature that allows them to detect the source of incoming messages and allows you as an alliance leader to avoid getting the message for a while. That's important, whether you are dodging the 6th small alliance leader this week looking for a protectorate (true story) or hoping that the poaching your alliance is conducting bears some fruit before you have to shut down the operation.

No, TDO handled the situation just fine. I don't think they'll take it any further, but that is a separate issue.

Or you know, Ivan was not on yesterday. TDO contacted lower government, then was in a discussion with GPA, GOP, and UJA along with dark council. Heft said the best way to contact ivan would be through pm. This was most likely a mistake on Heft's part as he didn't clarify, or maybe realize Ivan doesn't check his in game pms. Heft should have clarified that he meant a forum pm. Mistake, oh well. TDO did not try to contact Ivan until after this thread was made to smear us. THEN they sent a pm. Not before.

[Franz Ferdinand]

"Green Protection Agency and The Democratic Order, I salute you!"