caligula Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Then show it because quite frankly the majority of people out here have no reason to take you at your word about this. The "you do not know everything" line is not enough to dismiss everyone's concerns. What exactly is the concern here? That ZI is not a justifieable punishment for spying? I don't see how our alliances word doesn't amount to the word of someone who has admitted spying, and went through the means of accessing another members account without their permission to do so. I think that's for another thread. Edited June 28, 2009 by caligula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinite Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I am not saying she handled this correctly I am saying that her intent was very clearly not malicious and that you're reaction shows that you are more concerned with administering punishment as dictated by some obscure code of unwritten rules and regulations than with reacting fairly. I don't think that's very clear at all. There is clearly strong tensions between emily and current MHA gov. This happens a lot with ex members. If such a member came back and looked at private forums, I would be angry too. She wasn't there for punch and pie. Her relationship with MHA is clearly not that benign as this thread shows. She shouldn't have been accessing their private boards. All parties involved are better than this. This was a poor move emily. Nothing good happens here. I think the less posted here the better for the parties involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 What exactly is the concern here?That ZI is not a justifieable punishment for spying? I think that's for another thread. I am pretty sure whether or not your punishment to emily for her actions is pretty appropriate for this thread. The concern is whether or not your punishment to emily is justified. That was a pretty good evasion attempt though, I am sure you will be a pro at it in no time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Dammit, Tokugawa ninja'ed my post while I was eating dinner. He pretty much covered my assessment of this, however; yes, it was unauthorized access of another member's account, but intent makes the difference. I mean, after all, intent makes all the difference between manslaughter and murder, or attempted murder and assault. Yeah, Emily really shouldn't have gone on the forums, and if she had leaked screens she should have gone right to MHA gov without using the other account to "double check." But it's not like she was trying to harm MHA by doing so, so give her a round of wars and be done with it at that, ZI is a little much for what amounts to a simple mistake in judgement. EDIT: Spelling. Edited June 28, 2009 by Locke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Glaucon Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Did you miss the part where you then kept sending queries to me with various threats, harassments and false accusations against MHA gov? Im sure that covers ur harrasment What you posted isn't nearly harassment, unless you have NPO-thin skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall Jaxon Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Does this mean I'm no longer MHA's favorite spy? Edited June 28, 2009 by Stonewall Jaxon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 If you fly off the handle at this I don't see why you didn't back up NPO against OV considering that offense was far worse than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caligula Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) lol. Just when you thought it was safe to go to the OWF and not see at opic without the NPO or a reference. I'm sure there'll be an announcement sometime. Until our Triums can get together, being aussies, not much else can be said. I can only respectuflly disagree until they release information they deem necessary. Edited June 28, 2009 by caligula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiabelly Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 It makes sense, unfortunately there's too much information missing for you to form a fully correct opinion. Not your fault of course.Emily isn't being attacked because she raised concerns about a thread, that was done via IRC under the name of emily. I fail to see how what she did was required in order for her to raise concerns about the thread, and that is the issue here. I didn't see you or anyone deny that you were a Vox spy. If this was the case, do you not see any irony or feel hypocritical about your insisting she should be ZI'ed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 This is the VERB definition that you are all discussing. The act of spying.spy   /spaɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [spahy] Show IPA ,noun, plural spies, verb, spied, spy⋅ing. –verb (used without object) 5. to observe secretively or furtively with hostile intent (often fol. by on or upon). I don't see any hostile intent. However, I would not be appreciative of someone looking at NATO business without authorization so I understand why MHA is upset about this situation. Is that more blackmail i see, digging deeper and deeper? I don't see any blackmail going on, just someone trying to put their side out there, and the other furtively trying to stop them from doing so. What part of, caught and confessed spy did you miss? Its upto us how we deal with spies. For the record that pacifican comment was pathetic also. Said thread emily likes to bring up also contained no OOC trashing it was all IC and we are all allowed our opinions. In all honesty, while it is up to you to deal with spies how you see fit, we have seen time and time again that the world watches how alliances deal with them. I wish everyone luck in this matter, hopefully a conclusion can be reached soon so that all parties can walk away from this mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o ya baby Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 One round of war is more than enough of a punishment for this. ZI is just flexing nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believland Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 So... Emily logged onto another Hitchhiker's forum account to look at something that she wouldn't be able to see on her account then took screenshots of it, and showed the gov't of MHA. So she was ZIed for spying. Am I right so far? I'm just lost with this whole black mailing story... But, MHA it sounds like it was a just reason to ZI someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Autumn Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 So... Emily logged onto another Hitchhiker's forum account to look at something that she wouldn't be able to see on her account then took screenshots of it, and showed the gov't of MHA. So she was ZIed for spying. Am I right so far? I'm just lost with this whole black mailing story... But, MHA it sounds like it was a just reason to ZI someone. Emily received the screenshots from another person and did not take them herself, according to her accounting of events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Emily received the screenshots from another person and did not take them herself, according to her accounting of events. In other words, pretty much exactly the same as what Sethb said happened with him and Blackstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 1. What I confessed to does not amount to spying. (Spy: To observe SECRETIVELY or furtively with HOSTILE intent)2. I am still entitled to a trial. I got a kick out of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I'm confused, it seems some people are arguing that Emily logged on and viewed the private forum herself and took screenshots while others are saying she just accepted information? Would anyone mind clarifying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolissar Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I think the situation is the Emily claims to have received screenshots and then logged in as another user to view the topic from which they origionated. The former by most accounts would not be spying (or so people kept saying when this war started ) while many would consider the latter an example of espionage. Myth seems to imply (his posts aren't entirely clear due an uncharacteristic deficit of grammatical clarity) that no such screenshots existed or that if they did they were taken by her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teriethien Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I think this is a case of someone being guilty of spying in a very technical sense of the word (did no damage and actually attempted to be helpful) and being subject to excessive punishment because you don't like them as a person. Which I find worthy of discussion. My feelings after the first few pages. So... Emily logged onto another Hitchhiker's forum account to look at something that she wouldn't be able to see on her account then took screenshots of it, and showed the gov't of MHA. So she was ZIed for spying. Skipping 6 pages, are we now saying that Emily was ZIed for spying on the MHA... for the MHA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Merton Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Yes, it seems that some people don't understand that Emily sent them to herself, using the account of a now-inactive member that she had once babysat for. Also, some people have repeatedly failed to understand the word OR. OR means that only one of the stated conditions needs to be true. Hostile intent is not necessary, because she was secretive by using another account to access info that she no longer has access to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crushtania Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 In my view, emily's actions were not conducted in good faith and as such a violation of MHA sovereignty. emily left the alliance in bad faith and as such does not warrant the protection of the MHA Courts system due to her non-membership. MHA member services, just like any other alliance, are reserved for the courtesy of registered, legal members. Reviewing the evidence myself, emily has not been completely forthcoming with the correct version of events; thus we must conclude without reasonable doubt a trespass has been made against MHA. The MHA, just like any other alliance, reserves the right to defend itself against acts of malice from foreign sources. We do not believe in Perma/Eternal ZI and we shall not seek it. Once the punishment has been metered out we shall allow emily to do as she wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinite Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Yes, it seems that some people don't understand that Emily sent them to herself, using the account of a now-inactive member that she had once babysat for.Also, some people have repeatedly failed to understand the word OR. OR means that only one of the stated conditions needs to be true. Hostile intent is not necessary, because she was secretive by using another account to access info that she no longer has access to. I feel spying is a term of art in CN. It gets its very own meaning here. Nobody actually knows that meaning, but it's definitely a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sethb Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 If you fly off the handle at this I don't see why you didn't back up NPO against OV considering that offense was far worse than this. Clicking a link is worse than logging in to someone else's account to look at private areas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) So you're saying we DID have the right to ZI sethb? Edited June 29, 2009 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignis Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) Also, some people have repeatedly failed to understand the word OR.OR means that only one of the stated conditions needs to be true. Hostile intent is not necessary, because she was secretive by using another account to access info that she no longer has access to. This is wrong. The "OR" in the definition of interest here ("to observe secretively or furtively with hostile intent") implies equivalence between the conjuncts "secretively" and "furtively" (which makes sense, since they are synonyms). The prepositional phrase at the end ("with hostile intent") modifies the entire syndeton ("secretively or furtively") and not either word singly. Edited June 29, 2009 by Ignis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caligula Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) Skipping 6 pages, are we now saying that Emily was ZIed for spying Fixed. I really don't see where personal feelings come into play here. Edited June 29, 2009 by caligula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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