MHA: request for explanation

[Augustus Autumn]

Trial? Name me one other alliance that gives trials to none members? You can't because there isn't one, only members get trials, and she isn't one. A person who has no right to access our forum, accessed our forum. We took this information to the relivent people and ask to ZI her, they agreed.

I think the question here is about the severity of the sentence, not that she accessed your alliance's forums at any time.

End of story, anything else is her trying to get more attention, and if this sounds bad, sorry, but its no-one else's buissness, the only reason you even know about it, is that Emily came on here to get sympathy and attention.

I respectfully disagree - this matter has become one of public record due to what might be termed the mishandling of a former member of your alliance. As for her motivations for making this thread I'm sure it might be agreeable to attach some other words such as "frustration" and "vindication". Only she can speak to her motivations - anything else goes back to the practice of perception of intent.

Personally I think most of you are just sturing, if it was happening in your alliance you would agree with what we are doing, but because its not, you want to troll and take shots at us, and when this happens to your alliances i'll remember this moment and remind you of what you have been saying.

Please do remember my conduct, though do take note of who my views represent. At no point has my interest been the degradation of your alliance's standing within the wider community. Rather, my interest is in seeing the facts of this case being laid bare and a clarification of the reasoning behind such harsh treatment of a former member of your alliance for what appears to be a well-motivated mistake.

As for what I would have done in similar circumstances, I disagree entirely with the overall approach taken here. Should you be interested in a discussion on this topic you know where to find me.

[emily]

OK - temporary ceasefire?

The direction this thread has gone is just a mud slinging contest. and at least one side has run out of mud so is using its own excrement. That can never be good.

This was not the intention of this request for a trial. But rereading the responses posted, any basic psychologist would tell you there quickly ran out of other direction it could take.

I am not anti-MHA or anti-Myth, this issue was never about that it is and remains about this:

Saw a 4 page long OOC hate campaign by MHA gov against a gentle and lovely former member.

So privately advised MHA gov to take it down before it was leaked any further and caused more distress to the chap involved. But looking back, perhaps that was the exact intention of the thread in the first place.

No secrecy about what I'd seen, no hostile intent, no passing details to other people. Just pointing out that this is not how the MHA i know and loved used to behave, and trying to protect a dear friend.

If that's a crime then I'll take ZI for that! But I would still like a trial.

Please do not presume to know my mind better than I do in determining my true intentions. They were and remain exactly as stated. I have sold all my infra to help you reach your precious ZI. By losing the infra i have fought for something I believe in far more and have maintained by integrity and moral honor.

Now it is time MHA took a good look at what it has become, and tries to salvage any vestiges of the same.

Keep your ban on #MHA and your forums if you like, you should know that they can only ever serve to make me more determined to bypass them. the only real way to settle an argument with someone who feels wronged 9even if you do not feel they are wronged) is to make some attempt at reconciliation.

Clearly you are too overwhelmed by hate to do this at the present time. I will not reroll, I remain proud to be emily, You will know where to find me when you are ready....

[scutterbug]

OK - temporary ceasefire?

The direction this thread has gone is just a mud slinging contest. and at least one side has run out of mud so is using its own excrement. That can never be good.

This was not the intention of this request for a trial. But rereading the responses posted, any basic psychologist would tell you there quickly ran out of other direction it could take.

I am not anti-MHA or anti-Myth, this issue was never about that it is and remains about this:

Please do not presume to know my mind better than I do in determining my true intentions. They were and remain exactly as stated. I have sold all my infra to help you reach your precious ZI. By losing the infra i have fought for something I believe in far more and have maintained by integrity and moral honor.

Now it is time MHA took a good look at what it has become, and tries to salvage any vestiges of the same.

Keep your ban on #MHA and your forums if you like, you should know that they can only ever serve to make me more determined to bypass them. the only real way to settle an argument with someone who feels wronged 9even if you do not feel they are wronged) is to make some attempt at reconciliation.

Clearly you are too overwhelmed by hate to do this at the present time. I will not reroll, I remain proud to be emily, You will know where to find me when you are ready....

So whlst you claim to want to be left alone your openly admitted you will attempt to bypass our bans placed on you as we are leaving you alone. Thats smart!

[Sylveste]

Once again, why do we need to give un-relivent people information on why we do what we've done? The alliance she was(is) in was informed, given the relivent information, and if they'd have disagreed with our actions or with our conclusions would have asked for a different options. she knows what she's done, admitted to doing it, anything else is just whining and shot taking.

IF we'd have started this topic maybe you'd have a point, but as we didn't, and the dession had already been taken days ago, and only when the reality of ZI had set in did she make this topic.

[WorkingClassRuler]

No.

This thread has only further proved your dishonesty and malicious intent. I find it laughable therefore that you started this public mud slinging and hated, and yet try to call a ceasefire because we are "overwhelmed with hate".

Honestly, once I may have invested time in your lies and !@#$%^&*, but now we wash our hands of you.

Enjoy ZI.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[Augustus Autumn]

Once again, why do we need to give un-relivent people information on why we do what we've done? The alliance she was(is) in was informed, given the relivent information, and if they'd have disagreed with our actions or with our conclusions would have asked for a different options. she knows what she's done, admitted to doing it, anything else is just whining and shot taking.

IF we'd have started this topic maybe you'd have a point, but as we didn't, and the dession had already been taken days ago, and only when the reality of ZI had set in did she make this topic.

I'm disheartened to discover that you find the wider community of the Cyberverse to be "un-relivent", especially considering the vehemence of your response which seems to indicate that my opinions are very relevant to you at this time.

Since it seems that my motives have again been misunderstood, I shall clarify in simpler terms: I think Emily got a bum deal. Nothing is being shown to prove otherwise aside from emotionally charged posts, unproven claims and a series of personal attacks on her. I will admit to having a second motivation: a desire to see the truth of this whole thing come out.

If Emily is being taken to Zero-Infrastructure because she annoyed your alliance, hurt some feelings and generally acted inappropriately that's fine - if an example is being made here that's also fine. Trying to obfuscate this behind grand statements about laws being upheld, codes being broken and the like just tends to come off as a blatant ploy which is insulting to everyone involved. Like I said, there is a truth here. Best to have it out and be done with it if some sort of recovery of public perception is to be accomplished.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[tryagainplss]

MHA ROCKS!!!

MHA RULES!!!

i clearly dont know what's going on

Edited June 29, 2009 by tryagainplss

[WorkingClassRuler]

I'm disheartened to discover that you find the wider community of the Cyberverse to be "un-relivent", especially considering the vehemence of your response which seems to indicate that my opinions are very relevant to you at this time.

Since it seems that my motives have again been misunderstood, I shall clarify in simpler terms: I think Emily got a bum deal. Nothing is being shown to prove otherwise aside from emotionally charged posts, unproven claims and a series of personal attacks on her. I will admit to having a second motivation: a desire to see the truth of this whole thing come out.

If Emily is being taken to Zero-Infrastructure because she annoyed your alliance, hurt some feelings and generally acted inappropriately that's fine - if an example is being made here that's also fine. Trying to obfuscate this behind grand statements about laws being upheld, codes being broken and the like just tends to come off as a blatant ploy which is insulting to everyone involved. Like I said, there is a truth here. Best to have it out and be done with it if some sort of recovery of public perception is to be accomplished.

While I don't think Sylveste's post was entirely necessary, he does make a good point in that Emily brought all this nonsense to the public, when we had already settled it via private channels. Her intentions were to only sling mud at MHA and clearly lie about her own actions, which she has dutifully done repeatedly in this thread and indeed on this page.

I respect your desire for truth but I do hope that you've been keeping an objective mind. Just look at Emily's last post, she clearly indicates that she wishes to subvert our forum security once again, saying our IRC and forum ban only makes her "more determined" to violate our security once more. Are you not seeing the same posts that I am seeing? Did you not see her admission of GUILT over spying, and the clear amount of evidence we have provided that further proves her espionage?

It is not a simple matter of "being annoying", it is a systematic history of lying, dishonesty, and fabrication of so-called information to suit whatever her aim may be. But her ZI order, has we have clearly stated repeatedly, is because she spied on our alliance, admitted to it, and is now being punished for it. All the other !@#$ she has done is merely window dressing to that fact, but it sure as hell goes towards her motive and our inability to trust a single lie-infested, manipulative thing she says.

And no, I don't care about recovery of public perception. I know we have done the right thing, that's all that matters.

[Sylveste]

If Emily is being taken to Zero-Infrastructure because she annoyed your alliance, hurt some feelings and generally acted inappropriately that's fine - if an example is being made here that's also fine.

Emily is the only one going on about codes (which when she left no longer applied to her), and its not about hurt feelings, she spied, and unless (like i've said before, accessing alliances member areas that your no longer a part of, and have no right to is now allowable if your not doing it for overt reasons, if this is so can every alliance now please send me user accounts for there member forums, i'm not going to look at your forums for any other reason than i think you might be saying nasty things about people). Is the main reason she's being ZI'd, all the other stuff is just icing on the cake so to speak.

[wickedj]

If Myth is involved, he is clearly to be blamed

[Augustus Autumn]

While I don't think Sylveste's post was entirely necessary, he does make a good point in that Emily brought all this nonsense to the public, when we had already settled it via private channels. Her intentions were to only sling mud at MHA and clearly lie about her own actions, which she has dutifully done repeatedly in this thread and indeed on this page.

I respect your desire for truth but I do hope that you've been keeping an objective mind. Just look at Emily's last post, she clearly indicates that she wishes to subvert our forum security once again, saying our IRC and forum ban only makes her "more determined" to violate our security once more. Are you not seeing the same posts that I am seeing? Did you not see her admission of GUILT over spying, and the clear amount of evidence we have provided that further proves her espionage?

I think what needs to be illustrated here isn't that she's admitted to engaging in unauthorized access of your alliance's forums but how the sentence against her go passed. In other instances, the offender has found a method of accessing secured information, made copies of that information and then seen fit to distribute that information. In this case the progression seems to be the offender being provided with information, gaining access to confirm the information and then proceeding to inform your alliance's government about not only her possession of this information but also advising them of the possible danger that it might have been released already.

It is not a simple matter of "being annoying", it is a systematic history of lying, dishonesty, and fabrication of so-called information to suit whatever her aim may be. But her ZI order, has we have clearly stated repeatedly, is because she spied on our alliance, admitted to it, and is now being punished for it. All the other !@#$ she has done is merely window dressing to that fact, but it sure as hell goes towards her motive and our inability to trust a single lie-infested, manipulative thing she says.

At heart, I don't agree with the ruling leveled against her but I respect that you're pulling down the "window dressing" as it were. At the end of the day it's not for me to dictate ethical policy to a sovereign alliance - I just tend to be persistent in my questions until things get down to the bare minimum.

And no, I don't care about recovery of public perception. I know we have done the right thing, that's all that matters.

I respect your convictions on this, for what it's worth. Thank you for tolerating my nagging and continued uninvited opinions.

[tryagainplss]

If Myth is involved, he is clearly to be blamed

We Dont Know That.

[tristram]

They've never been found.

We believe a long-time member had been framed. Whether it was an admin or who it was, it can't be for certain.

Either way, I don't see the relevance.

Just wanted to point out here a small fib... on someones part

16:09 <Crushtania> emily was the spy!

16:09 <tristram> and mind giving me the IP so that i can cross check it on my boards?

16:09 <tristram> for vox?

16:09 <Crushtania> oh no

16:09 <Crushtania> that was someone else

16:09 <Crushtania> we got rid of him

16:09 <tristram> ZI them too?

16:10 <Crushtania> unfortunately we can't touch him due to a peace agreement

[Haflinger]

Clicking a link is worse than logging in to someone else's account to look at private areas?

Sigh.

sethb was accused of taking action to deliberately conceal a Blackstone spy's identity from NPO.

I'm still a bit curious as to what constitutes leaving in bad faith.

However, this whole incident reminds me more of the Chickenzilla & VE "spying" incident than anything else, which I also didn't think was spying. If people give other people their forum passwords, well, they're being foolish, it's true.

But the last thing a spy of any sort would do is contact the government she was spying on and inform them that she had access to their forums.

Given Myth's history, though, Emily choosing to approach him was also foolish. He doesn't exactly fit the description of "most understanding person in MHA."

[crushtania]

Just wanted to point out here a small fib... on someones part

16:09 <Crushtania> emily was the spy!

16:09 <tristram> and mind giving me the IP so that i can cross check it on my boards?

16:09 <tristram> for vox?

16:09 <Crushtania> oh no

16:09 <Crushtania> that was someone else

16:09 <Crushtania> we got rid of him

16:09 <tristram> ZI them too?

16:10 <Crushtania> unfortunately we can't touch him due to a peace agreement

Yes, post the crazy out of context and vague logs to get the conspiracy theories happening. I don't tell foreign, un-treatied nationals sensitive information. Nor does anyone else. Its just how I (and everyone else) rolls.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Crushtania

[WorkingClassRuler]

I think what needs to be illustrated here isn't that she's admitted to engaging in unauthorized access of your alliance's forums but how the sentence against her go passed. In other instances, the offender has found a method of accessing secured information, made copies of that information and then seen fit to distribute that information. In this case the progression seems to be the offender being provided with information, gaining access to confirm the information and then proceeding to inform your alliance's government about not only her possession of this information but also advising them of the possible danger that it might have been released already.

The first part would be another lie on Emily's behalf and perpetuated by people who have little knowledge of the event itself. In the previous incident referred to, if the member in question had been a spy, we would have ZI'ed them all the same. There's no double standards here. In that incident, the member in question was a victim of a hacked forum account, and we trusted his innocence on the basis of that member being 100% trustworthy and honest with no prior history of ANY misconduct. The member in question was innocent, we do not ZI the innocent.

In this instance, however, the nation is guilty and confessed to the crime. As stated;

1) Upon request, she did not provide evidence to support her claim of receiving screenshots. She still has not provided anything, either in public or in private.

2) We discovered that she indeed had access herself to our forums. We do not believe she received screenshots and then magically remembered that she had access to our forums via another member's account, and then used to that just to prove the screenshots were legit.

3) She had ample opportunity to take the screenshots herself and claim afterwards that the timeline was reversed.

4) Even if she did receive these screenshots, surely anyone would simply pass on this evidence to the MHA Government - but instead she accessed our forums illegally and committed an act of espionage, using these supposed Screenshots as motivation. She has admitted to accessing our forums illegally..

5) When queried about why she accessed our forum, she admitted she in fact only did it to see if anything was being said about her, not to prove the legitimacy of the shots. This only further invalidates her accessing our forums and shows further lying on her behalf.

6) She has bragged repeatedly about being a spy since being discovered

7) She has claimed repeatedly that MHA gov knew about her other account, this is a lie.

8) She has made this thread to distort the truth and attempt to circumvent punishment.

9) She has now claimed that she will attempt to violate our security once more, in this very thread.

Honestly, would you believe a word she has said after she has done all this to our alliance in the past few days?

These are the facts as we know them, I have no intention or motivation to lie about these events. As an alliance, we are fairly easy going, we don't hand out ZI sentences lightly. Emily's actions show that she has committed an act of Espionage on our alliance, and repeatedly lied and distorted the facts to circumvent punishment for her crimes. She has admitted to spying, we're punishing her for spying. We have zero trust in any of the deceitful lies she has made.

At heart, I don't agree with the ruling leveled against her but I respect that you're pulling down the "window dressing" as it were. At the end of the day it's not for me to dictate ethical policy to a sovereign alliance - I just tend to be persistent in my questions until things get down to the bare minimum. I respect your convictions on this, for what it's worth. Thank you for tolerating my nagging and continued uninvited opinions.

No worries

Edited June 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[tristram]

Yes, post the crazy out of context and vague logs to get the conspiracy theories happening. I don't tell foreign, un-treatied nationals sensitive information. Nor does anyone else. Its just how I (and everyone else) rolls.

How is that out of context lol, its from yesterday, and it you completely contradicting myth

[WorkingClassRuler]

How is that out of context lol, its from yesterday, and it you completely contradicting myth

It's also completely irrelevant to Emily's situation. The member being accused by Emily of being a Vox spy is not a Vox spy and innocent - unlike Emily. So it has no bearing on this discussion.

[tristram]

It's also completely irrelevant to Emily's situation. The member being accused by Emily of being a Vox spy is not a Vox spy and innocent - unlike Emily. So it has no bearing on this discussion.

Righto WCR.

[Ada069]

i was bored. i made a Picture-tation of the supposed happenings.

i have no life

Just a quick question to MHA.

Did you ever attempt in anyway to investigate Emily's claim of someone sending her Screenshots??

btw anything missing from image let me know

Edited June 29, 2009 by Ada069

[scutterbug]

I response to ada <3 the pic.

We cant investigate those claims as she always refused to provide who gave her the screenies or the screenshots themselves. Bit hard to investigate without any evidence.

Edited June 29, 2009 by scutterbug

[WorkingClassRuler]

"Thread is made with supposed OOC Charter (sic?) attacks" is incorrect. We didn't OOC attack one's Charter or, indeed, their Character. Though I would find it highly ironic that Emily would claim we have OOC attacked anyone, when in fact it's the other way around.

As to the second part; Myth asked for proof and Scutter and Sorum tried to investigate the truth from her directly. At no stage has she provided evidence of being sent screenshots (as opposed to taking them herself) or even the supposed screenshots themselves. She has had ample opportunity to do so in private over the past 3 days, and still has not done so. She has also failed to do so in this thread as well. Her repeated failure to provide proof when first questioned and even now, places her claim in complete doubt IMHO and given her history of lying, I believe her claim to be yet another fabrication.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[emily]

In this instance, however, the nation is guilty and confessed to the crime. As stated;

1) Upon request, she did not provide evidence to support her claim of receiving screenshots. She still has not provided anything, either in public or in private.

2) We discovered that she indeed had access herself to our forums. We do not believe she received screenshots and then magically remembered that she had access to our forums via another member's account, and then used to that just to prove the screenshots were legit.

3) She had ample opportunity to take the screenshots herself and claim afterwards that the timeline was reversed.

4) Even if she did receive these screenshots, surely anyone would simply pass on this evidence to the MHA Government - but instead she accessed our forums illegally and committed an act of espionage, using these supposed Screenshots as motivation. She has admitted to accessing our forums illegally..

5) When queried about why she accessed our forum, she admitted she in fact only did it to see if anything was being said about her, not to prove the legitimacy of the shots. This only further invalidates her accessing our forums and shows further lying on her behalf.

6) She has bragged repeatedly about being a spy since being discovered

7) She has claimed repeatedly that MHA gov knew about her other account, this is a lie.

8) She has made this thread to distort the truth and attempt to circumvent punishment.

9) She has now claimed that she will attempt to violate our security once more, in this very thread.

1) Upon request, she did not provide evidence to support her claim of receiving screenshots. She still has not provided anything, either in public or in private.

FALSE: This was never requested, I did however, go through with crush the method of placing a document in someones view then deleting it.

2) We discovered that she indeed had access herself to our forums. We do not believe she received screenshots and then magically remembered that she had access to our forums via another member's account, and then used to that just to prove the screenshots were legit.

FALSE:You did not discover this. MHA gov were aware of it from the outset and were told about it both in my conversation with myth, and later confirmed in my conversation with scutterbug. If you bothered to read the logs provided, you will see a number of government members openly discussing forum topics with me.

3) She had ample opportunity to take the screenshots herself and claim afterwards that the timeline was reversed.

If I had dome that - why would I have not sent them to you as "proof"

4) Even if she did receive these screenshots, surely anyone would simply pass on this evidence to the MHA Government - but instead she accessed our forums illegally and committed an act of espionage, using these supposed Screenshots as motivation. She has admitted to accessing our forums illegally..

This pint has NEVER been in question.

5) When queried about why she accessed our forum, she admitted she in fact only did it to see if anything was being said about her, not to prove the legitimacy of the shots. This only further invalidates her accessing our forums and shows further lying on her behalf.

Erm - yes i did have access to your forums, as i had already used this to ease my paranoia there was no reason for me to re access your forums other than if I was telling the truth.

6) She has bragged repeatedly about being a spy since being discovered

No I have said your actions have made me more inclined to be a spy. [but I would still prefer to be persuaded not to tbh.....]

7) She has claimed repeatedly that MHA gov knew about her other account, this is a lie.

again - please read the logs provided in this thread.

8) She has made this thread to distort the truth and attempt to circumvent punishment.

Certainly not. I am the one providing the logs here, MHA is not providing anything to disprove them.

9) She has now claimed that she will attempt to violate our security once more, in this very thread.

No I have said your actions have made me more inclined to be a spy. [but I would still prefer to be persuaded not to tbh.....]

and the ceasefire argument was more of a metaphorical term than an in-game reference!

Now please - stop all the emily is evil, horrible, spying, lying lines, the logs speak for themselves.

MHA did have an OOC hate campaign going on. I did see it, i did tell MHA, you decided to ZI me.

MHA has other spies in their alliance that it choses not to ZI because quite frankly they are your pals!. I am being ZI'd because I just don't fit in!

[gfloyd2002]

In the course of her own defense in this thread, Emily has posted private logs of Triumvir-Minister discussions about extremely sensitive internal MHA issues. Any doubt about the merits of ZI ended with her behavior in this thread. It's deeply saddening to see, as I know Emily a better person that she shows here, just as MHA is too good to allow itself to get baited like this.

[Ada069]

just a quick question again (man im full of these)

Is Emily's count of using another forum account to "spy" counted in the MHA Charter? :/ i found nothing on that tbh ...~_~""

I believe the only part that i found that is meant to initiate ZI against a non MHA was this :/

Attempting to or successfully obtaining and redistributing information, guides, screen shots, or any other property deemed private in nature from the MHA to an external source

which doesn't seem to work, because she didn't Redistribute, nor was there an external source :\. there is mention of Multiple accounts through CN on the Hitch-hikers code one, but if she wasnt in MHA. none of that document applies i guess :/

im confusing myself with this lmao

just for thos who arnt familiar with the text (i know WCR defiantly is tho)

BTW before you read below, MHA doesnt Perma ZI or Enternal ZI. wiki just hasnt been updated .."

Part Q: A High External Crime includes attempting to or successfully obtaining and redistributing information, guides, screen shots, or any other property deemed private in nature from the MHA to an external source (espionage); the use of Nuclear Weapons against the MHA without prior Nuclear provocation (first-strike nuking); or any other act deemed consistent with these previous crimes.

Part R: The Act of Committing a High External Crime shall incur instant hostile action taken against the offenders, classification as an official enemy of the MHA; sentencing to Perma ZI (as described above); and any other punishment deemed necessary by the MHA Government and Court. All due care will be taken if the offender of a High External Crime is from another alliance, but due to the crime, offenders will be pursued with deadly force. Alliances willingly harboring an enemy of the MHA shall be treated as a hostile alliance.

Thanx for loving the image Scutter btw might save some people time. seeing as its back and forth along the lines