Looks like the NPO's making it's counter strike

[The AUT]

The problem is we don't quite get what Karma's intentions are for NPO and to a much lesser extent IRON. Karma is a loose coalition comprised of many alliances who don't share much in common, the only thing they share in common is to change the landscape of CN and create a new order or none at all. Whether or not they let NPO surrender is irrelevant now, Planet Bob has changed no matter what happens. Karma has offered white peace to all those who were forced to enter through treaty obligations, not so much those who are necessarily responsible for the current paradigm on Planet Bob. So why not the NPO? Well, it could be for multiple reasons. They tried to seek peace and were offering to throw TORN under the bus. It could also be that Karma alliances want revenge, most notably CnG. There is also the crew that are on the Karma side just for treaty obligations and, whether you like to admit it or not, for the sheer fact of band wagoning and getting a chance to knock off the NPO. (By the way MHA, where is your response to GDI and their band wagoning?)

Either way, from our end, we are ready to fight as long as it takes. Some do it as an act of showing we aren't afraid to fight, some do it as this is fun to finally have a challenge. We're ready to take this into another VietFAN situation, will Karma do that? I'm not sure, it's up to them and whether or not they hold true to their word of not destroying alliances or making taxing demands on them. Some will be fueled for sheer hate for the Hegemony, some will see it as a time to move on and would like to see white peace. It all depends, and that's what makes Karma so diverse and loose. When it comes to matters of peace and other things that'll arise well after the Hegemony is defeated, how will the forces of Karma cope with one another? I know most won't stand at the gates and play bodyguards to make sure the Hegemony doesn't rise again.

So many questions that are going to be left unanswered once these wars are done and once peace is being discussed. An old era of CN is about to die and a new is about to arise. Except this time so many unanswered questions will come up and the answers to those questions won't come from one driving force, rather a culmination of powers trying to answer them all individually the best they can.

Just my take.

[mrcalkin]

... Or they plan ahead and have a plan B. (Its not like peace moders can't come during the war to give the aid)

Meh, its just because there are so many Karma guys hungry for tech. In even fights, correct peace moding usually won the war.

LOL, is anyone actually up on tech? I think I was for about 25 hours until the nukes started wasting it quick.

[Petrovich4]

As I mentioned in another thread, the alliances fighting will determine the peace terms. The pit viper is still biting and our fortitude is very strong. Sure The Hegemony might or might not pull a VietFan blah blah blah etc etc but many people fail to realize that the fortitude and willingness of most of 'our side' (friends>infra) is that we have, at one point or another, have already gone to ZI, participated in mini VietFans, fought wars for weeks or in some cases months on end, etc. If The Hegemony wants to be stubborn and fight for weeks on end, I will personally be glad to do so as well - a perpetual war is another walk in the park for us. Will it hurt? Sure, it will hurt our pixels, but that is not the sole reason we are playing this game.

GL to the NPO nations with the 1+ billion war chests that are coming out. May your wars be long and painful.

[Ejayrazz]

Criticizing NPO for Peace modes in regards of their past actions makes sense given history of some people and alliances with NPO on similar topic. Many posters as suggested earlier have been defeated decisively by NPO on perhaps more than one occasions over the past 3 years...there is obviously alot of score settling to be done. It is only logical that they point out what NPO did, however we have not seen any condition by Karma for NPO to come out of Peace mode and fight, so it will be unfair to say Karma is suggesting anything that is ditto similar to actions Karma members (Not sure about recent additions) have so openly condemned for months. However, vocally condemning NPO for their past stiff actions seems logical and rational if we look at it from their point of view. People need to understand this.

Problem with such a diverse group is you get a diverse opinion with no coherency. You'll hear people shout from disbandments to white peace and everything in between. So right now, we cannot really judge until the guns are silenced from the active battlefields, until then, so far as facts are facts, Karma has stood up to claims by some vocal people that leniency is in offering. Whether this remains the case or /ooc/ Skywalker look-alike goes the dark side (or remains as the younger skywalker) /ooc/ remains to be seen. In either case, Karma must be viciously condemned for lack of /ooc/ Star Wars References throughout the war. While we are discussing this, IRON's role in promoting LOTR must be openly hailed. Heft you have failed us in NSO. /ooc/

However, saying that peace mode tactic in war is stupid and is not 'brave' really makes one wonder if the person suggesting such has ever read a decent war guide or even understands the basic war mechanisms of the game. Its not about Bravery for NPO at this point of time nor bravado.

NPO had accepted Peace terms before the war even started, NPO made a rational choice and given their situation, turtling and Peace-moding is probably the best strategy they are using until Karma offers them the old terms or most probably new much harsher terms.

Until then it is most wise to save as many pixels as possible and also go in with occasional blitzes. Not every alliance has a perceived threshold of taking alot of pixel damage. This statement can go both ways given the agenda of this topic. Kindly keep that in mind.

Look at IRON, people are grinding for most casualty counts -.- It is a culture rational mind does not understands.

Absolutely correct, which people need to understand basic principles of military planning in times of war as it relates to peace mode and proper issuing of 'waves'. I am against the NPO in this conflict, as I am to IRON, but I refuse to make short jabs in attempt to discredit them by illogical means, such as advocating them as moronic imbeciles for being in peace mode for obvious reasonings. Now, if you wish to portray a sincere conveyance of the NPO being 'moronic imbeciles' by logical means, well this is a different subject at hand, though I would approach it differently myself.

Mogar took jabs at Grämlins for Syz being in peace mode, he has the right to do this as a basic human right, as I have the basic right to tell him he is wrong in many regards. Honestly, if you send in every combatant first wave, this move speaks for itself as to your alliance's warring abilities.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Venizelos]

This peace mode taunting is really ridiculous. The guys in there, the ones with half a brain, understand some nations stay in peace mode to recover, some to bring aid later, some to bring recovery aid after war and others to come as a second wave.

While I can see this as a tactic to get them to come out, I hope none of you believe what you are saying.

where were you complaining when GATO was forced to come out of peace mode? i didn't hear anyone complaining then.

Criticizing NPO for Peace modes in regards of their past actions makes sense given history of some people and alliances with NPO on similar topic. Many posters as suggested earlier have been defeated decisively by NPO on perhaps more than one occasions over the past 3 years...there is obviously alot of score settling to be done. It is only logical that they point out what NPO did, however we have not seen any condition by Karma for NPO to come out of Peace mode and fight, so it will be unfair to say Karma is suggesting anything that is ditto similar to actions Karma members (Not sure about recent additions) have so openly condemned for months. However, vocally condemning NPO for their past stiff actions seems logical and rational if we look at it from their point of view. People need to understand this.

if people on your side don't understand that you calling alliances that make smart uses of peace mode cowards, and then running to peace mode when you are attacked, is laughable, and us pointing it out is calling you out on your lie, then you have a much bigger problem than i thought

Problem with such a diverse group is you get a diverse opinion with no coherency. You'll hear people shout from disbandments to white peace and everything in between. So right now, we cannot really judge until the guns are silenced from the active battlefields, until then, so far as facts are facts, Karma has stood up to claims by some vocal people that leniency is in offering. Whether this remains the case or /ooc/ Skywalker look-alike goes the dark side (or remains as the younger skywalker) /ooc/ remains to be seen. In either case, Karma must be viciously condemned for lack of /ooc/ Star Wars References throughout the war. While we are discussing this, IRON's role in promoting LOTR must be openly hailed. Heft you have failed us in NSO. /ooc/

However, saying that peace mode tactic in war is stupid and is not 'brave' really makes one wonder if the person suggesting such has ever read a decent war guide or even understands the basic war mechanisms of the game. Its not about Bravery for NPO at this point of time nor bravado.

obviously they have some sort of plan for those nations, but since NPO is where you go for safety, since the normal members are treated like crap, it won't be surprising if half of them stay in peace mode for fear of losing pixels and mask it saying they are just waiting to give rebuilding aid.

and again most of the complains on peace mode have to do with what NPO said about peace moders in earlier conflicts.

NPO had accepted Peace terms before the war even started, NPO made a rational choice and given their situation, turtling and Peace-moding is probably the best strategy they are using until Karma offers them the old terms or most probably new much harsher terms.

Until then it is most wise to save as many pixels as possible and also go in with occasional blitzes. Not every alliance has a perceived threshold of taking alot of pixel damage. This statement can go both ways given the agenda of this topic. Kindly keep that in mind.

Look at IRON, people are grinding for most casualty counts -.- It is a culture rational mind does not understands.

yeah yeah, keep whining about how NPO didn't have a chance for peace. NPO gave up peace the second they attacked OV, and imo it was a mistake that they were approached the next day.

and shah... peace moding... and turtling... from IRON? have you forgotten the post bay made about how anyone peace moding without orders or anyone turtling will be considered a coward by bay and a traitor to the alliance? the alliances who run around calling people cowards are now following the same tactics themselves?

what a surprise.

[Ejayrazz]

where were you complaining when GATO was forced to come out of peace mode? i didn't hear anyone complaining then.

Right, so not raising concerns again would be yet another mistake. Let them be hypocrites, not us.

if people on your side don't understand that you calling alliances that make smart uses of peace mode cowards, and then running to peace mode when you are attacked, is laughable, and us pointing it out is calling you out on your lie, then you have a much bigger problem than i thought

So we'll do what they did to us? Laughing at them for peace mode? Let their hypocrisy show if you truly feel it exists, but do know you're insulting those on YOUR side by insulting those who use peace mode as a strategical measure.

obviously they have some sort of plan for those nations, but since NPO is where you go for safety, since the normal members are treated like crap, it won't be surprising if half of them stay in peace mode for fear of losing pixels and mask it saying they are just waiting to give rebuilding aid.

and again most of the complains on peace mode have to do with what NPO said about peace moders in earlier conflicts.

Assumptions are bad. You do not know their strategical planning as of late. Yes, I agree, NPO members can be treated poorly, but making countless assumptions about those members, instead of leadership, is a fallacy. Time will tell the true answer.

yeah yeah, keep whining about how NPO didn't have a chance for peace. NPO gave up peace the second they attacked OV, and imo it was a mistake that they were approached the next day.

Agreed, peace terms shouldn't have been discussed so early.

and shah... peace moding... and turtling... from IRON? have you forgotten the post bay made about how anyone peace moding without orders or anyone turtling will be considered a coward by bay and a traitor to the alliance? the alliances who run around calling people cowards are now following the same tactics themselves?

what a surprise.

I do not believe he spoke about peacing against said orders, but rather spoke clearly about military tactics and the usage of, as you put it, 'peace moding'. There is a difference mate between careful coordination and peace usage and eternally staying in peace mode as a coward. As I said, time will tell. Do remember, we are on the same side of this conflict at hand (the war), so this is coming from a Karma perspective, but in my opinion, a more understanding approach.

[R&R-Viking]

words

The force is strong with this one.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Forcing nations to come out of peace mode, or face PZI or even ZI for the alliance, making Peace mode nations pay bulk of the reps just because they were in peace mode on orders of their alliance leadership to stay in peace mode. Not just threatening these consequences, but actively enforcing them, amounted to nothing but removing a tactic from the opposition's arsenal in future conflicts by setting a harsh example today. That is how the NPO has operated in the past. I can understand why people taunt them today on them being in peace mode. It would not be too far fetched to imagine that there are indeed some that would wish to visit the same consequences to the NPO. being in peace mode is a legitimate tactic of warfare in this realm. It is however the cause of losing your rear due to excessive mirth when NPO does it after the treatment meted out to the likes of GATO et.al by NPO in the past. One almost wishes for an encore in reverse.

It is not a matter of being as bad or as good as your opposition. It is a matter of the whiplash, the recoil from a long period of being under the Francoist boot so as to speak. Toiling day and night to build your alliance, gathering members, setting up a place for them to gather and talk, plan, grow. Everything come to naught when the blue and black and gold came knocking. Our way or the highway to hell, was it not?

As for lenient or harsh terms for the NPO and other alliances at war with Karma today, those bridges would be crossed as and when they are reached. There is no carte blanche term goodie bag, to reach in and hand out same terms to everyone. There is also no list of terms for any particular alliance, to the best of my knowledge. All the world at large has to go by right now is the past of these alliances under question and the love the rest of the cyberverse has for them.

[Coursca]

Wow, Venizelos...just wow.

[MercyFallout]

LOL, is anyone actually up on tech? I think I was for about 25 hours until the nukes started wasting it quick.

*cough*

iFOK is up on tech, NS, infra, land, and just about everything else. >__>

@Ejay, some of the smaller alliances have MUCH more to gain by bumrushing everything in the first wave than holding some back as a theoretical second wave. Chances are, smaller alliances won't have the opportunity for a second wave when fighting a much larger alliance.

[Darknight6]

Ok I guess I should say me peace however I doubt any of you will listen to it because most you aren't going to like it...

I hear a lot of "They did it to us, so we should be able to return the favor." Now I understand that Karma isn't threating NPO to come out of peace mode on penalty of Perma-ZI or anything such as what they did. However even goading them about their keeping nations in peace mode is putting you on the same level as them. We all know NPO did a lot of evil things to a lot of alliance that never deserved it, but even though we know that we must still go about this war honorably. Even though NPO did things that were less than honorable that does not give the rest of Planet bob the right to do those things, that just means that Planet Bob must stand up against them for such wrong doings. Whether you believe this or not I know exactly how you all feel in this war better than you will ever know! You ask why go to such great lengths to help these people out when they never did any such thing for us, but remember why you do all this is because you have the duty and the honor to show the rest of Planet Bob how wars should be fought!

Ok I am done qo on with you with your thread now!

[shahenshah]

snap

May I ask you what is your criteria about selecting the alliances to punish, I always wondered how that bridge will be crossed. As I understand, right now the criteria is the alliances that are fighting Karma and not the alliances that stood with NPO for months if not years while it did what it did. Would that be a correct assumption?

Edited May 2, 2009 by shahenshah

[Bill Wallace]

Where has anyone said that NPO should have white peace? They need to be punished, but by using the same methods that NPO did to their victims you are destroying any moral high-ground in one move, and any chance that we could have a better world at the end of this will be gone.

Again, I'm not speaking officially for my alliance, but I can assure you that a lot of Viridians are not fighting NPO because we have the "moral high-ground". Most of us could care less about the morality of this fight. We fight because our brothers and sisters in OV were wronged by the NPO and we've decided that we're not going to look the other way any longer.

And as for the idea of a "better world" - who's to say what constitutes a better world? I do believe though that most people feel that a world without NPO tyranny is as you put it, "a better world".

Edited May 2, 2009 by Bill Wallace

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

May I ask you what is your criteria about selecting the alliances to punish, I always wondered how that bridge will be crossed. As I understand, right now the criteria is the alliances that are fighting Karma and not the alliances that stood with NPO for months if not years while it did what it did. Would that be a correct assumption?

Not having said anything about seeking to punish any alliance, I can however understand how it might be a conclusion one may draw from my saying not all alliances would get the same kind of terms. The reality of the matter is, as I said earlier, terms for different alliances may vary. I also did say that there is no list, of particular alliances and terms mentioned against their names, to the best of my knowledge. That means there is no horrible fate pre-ordained for any alliance as of now.

As to the other part of your query, about the difference between those that stand with NPO now, and those that once stood with NPO, there is not much to say, is there? One could always throw up the Coke versus Pepsi sig and make a fuss, or one could just say that some folks finally broke free and did what they have been wanting to do for a while now.

Grämlins for one made it rather clean in the document they published, their ways and means document on waging war and doing stuff in general, I forget what it was called. Way before the current war. That, and previously their behaviour immediately in the aftermath of the BLEU-Continuum War, was to me the begining of them actually doing something to distance themselves from their erstwhile associations with the people that did things in a way that Grämlins were uncomfortable with [please note, this is my opinion and I do not purport to speak for the Grämlins in any capacity].

There have since been others that have sought to and have distanced themselves from that which they did not aprove of anymore. They do, I presume, have an option to stop being considered opressive by association. I believe they excercised that option. I will chalk it down to realization and awakening that being a mute observer of your friend's attrocities is being almost as bad as your attrocious friend. In an ideal world, the tyrant himself would have awoken and seen what he had become and would have ceased to be a tyrant. But then the world is far from ideal.

[Kindom of Goon]

Where on earth has this idea that everyone from Karma thinks all wars should end with white peace come from? Its not the case and never has been. My personal issues have always been with things such as forced disbandment, gov changes, viceroys, P/EZI, eternal wars etc. All of these are terms designed to destroy or cripple alliances and I'd be very surprised and dissapointed to see any of them enforced once the war ends. This however in no way means everyone should get white peace, hold hands and dance together in a field with flowers and bunnies, if you do wrong, you'll have the suffer the consequences.

[Bob Janova]

This war is essentially about ending unfairness. The NPO has a long list of 'crimes' and so some punishment is likely to be seen as appropriate. This does not make us 'as bad as them' – what would do that would be to be acting unfairly, for example PZI for peace mode, imposing viceroys, demanding 80,000 tech (or disbandment) from a small alliance which entered due to obligations.

I appreciate that the Hegemony is trying to play the propaganda card to get a very easy peace so they can rebuild and attack us – no doubt imposing a tough peace on us if they won – but it is not accurate and I think everyone can see through it.

E: I guess I should say that we are not at war with the NPO and therefore these are simply my observations of viewpoints within Karma, not any sort of statement of the Karma position.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Ejayrazz]

*cough*

iFOK is up on tech, NS, infra, land, and just about everything else. >__>

@Ejay, some of the smaller alliances have MUCH more to gain by bumrushing everything in the first wave than holding some back as a theoretical second wave. Chances are, smaller alliances won't have the opportunity for a second wave when fighting a much larger alliance.

Depends on mitigating circumstances, allies, the current situation at hand, etc. I do agree, in some cases you are correct, but not with the NPO and this current one, though you weren't necessarily making this assertion.

[Näktergal]

This war is essentially about ending unfairness. The NPO has a long list of 'crimes' and so some punishment is likely to be seen as appropriate. This does not make us 'as bad as them' – what would do that would be to be acting unfairly, for example PZI for peace mode, imposing viceroys, demanding 80,000 tech (or disbandment) from a small alliance which entered due to obligations.

Or, to put it another way, lack of appropriate retribution is just as "unfair" as excessive retribution. If the idea is to balance the scales, dipping too far in either direction is failure.

[Israfeel]

This war is essentially about ending unfairness. The NPO has a long list of 'crimes' and so some punishment is likely to be seen as appropriate. This does not make us 'as bad as them' – what would do that would be to be acting unfairly, for example PZI for peace mode, imposing viceroys, demanding 80,000 tech (or disbandment) from a small alliance which entered due to obligations.

I appreciate that the Hegemony is trying to play the propaganda card to get a very easy peace so they can rebuild and attack us – no doubt imposing a tough peace on us if they won – but it is not accurate and I think everyone can see through it.

E: I guess I should say that we are not at war with the NPO and therefore these are simply my observations of viewpoints within Karma, not any sort of statement of the Karma position.

NPO played the game, they played it too well.

Right and wrong (fair and unfair) is always subjective.

I think we are ganna miss them.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Israfeel

[The Eye]

This thread is IC, moving to WA

[A Soviet Attack]

NPO played the game, they played it too well.

Right and wrong (fair and unfair) is always subjective.

I think we are ganna miss them.

They aren't going anywhere, are they?

[Randleman]

They aren't going anywhere, are they?

Mass migration?

I think he was inferring that NPO will no longer be a factor in the grand scheme of global politics, which I find to be untrue.

[HeinousOne]

Mass migration?

I think he was inferring that NPO will no longer be a factor in the grand scheme of global politics, which I find to be untrue.

They will be a factor, they just wont be the factor.

[Zoli]

i'm happy NPO isn't fighting us... i would be sscared...

advice to all nations fighting NPO: surrender now! good alliance term is:

1, sell 50% of your infra

2, change AA to NPO POW

This is the best you can get, do it or you will be crushed

:sarcasm:

[cncruzore85]

Does anyone really think the mass peace modes are about the NPO higher-ups hiding in peacemode until this blows over?

I mean, them dragging out a nuclear war as long as they can by doing waves to make it as painful as possible to the enemy wouldn't make sense at all.