Next Great War

[King Srqt]

Nation Name: I'm Voting for Kingzog

Oh you mean that guy that I, a member of Vox at the time, reported for possibly being a multi? The same report that nothing came of most likely because he wasn't a multi?

link for reference.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...c=32190&hl=

try again.

[Azaghul]

Nation Name: I'm Voting for Kingzog

There's no reason that could not just be a re-roll.

Also I find this idea that those in power are sticking together to "fight Vox" or whatever Vladimir thinks they are doing is silly and without any foundation. And if they "stifle debate" it's because the people responding to them do, which means that they would try to stifle any debate. There's a lot more debate going on on the forums, even not involving Vox, than there was before.

If people are able to use a group as insignificant in terms of statistical strength as Vox to create a common enemy and it works to keep people unified, than they could easily just have made up somewhat else to serve instead.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Azaghul

[Branimir]

I, a member of Vox at the time

Sorry for the sidetrack to come, but thread is already off, so,...no big harm.

KingSrqt if I may ask you, why did you leave Vox? Just curious.

[King Srqt]

Sorry for the sidetrack to come, but thread is already off, so,...no big harm.

KingSrqt if I may ask you, why did you leave Vox? Just curious.

A number of reasons, some I wont drag into public as they involve other people but what it all boiled down to basically was that I was not personally having fun due to the atmosphere of the alliance.

[GTTofAK]

Oh you mean that guy that I, a member of Vox at the time, reported for possibly being a multi? The same report that nothing came of most likely because he wasn't a multi?

link for reference.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...c=32190&hl=

try again.

You were one of half a dozen people that reported him. Face facts you had an anarchistic government so players were free to do what ever the hell they wished. Thats one of the reasons Vox is no longer an anarchy. When Admin proposed changing the voting requirements to make it hard for multies to vote many of your members screamed bloody murder, hmm I wonder what they were doing to help the voting effort. And when the requirements were changed Kingzogs votes dropped like a stone. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. And you can try and defend yourself all you want but that misses the point. My point was that you lost the moral high ground. You can try and argue till you are blue in the face that you werent using multies but that doesnt change the fact that most, especially the people you were trying to win over ie. our allies, believed you were. So argue all you want but you are just going to be blue in the face. It no different with your defense on the raid of the green senate. I didn’t say it violated game rules. I said it lost you the moral high ground. Game rules and morality are not the same thing.

Edited March 12, 2009 by GTTofAK

[Vladimir]

Also I find this idea that those in power are sticking together to "fight Vox" or whatever Vladimir thinks they are doing is silly and without any foundation. And if they "stifle debate" it's because the people responding to them do, which means that they would try to stifle any debate. There's a lot more debate going on on the forums, even not involving Vox, than there was before.

If people are able to use a group as insignificant in terms of statistical strength as Vox to create a common enemy and it works to keep people unified, than they could easily just have made up somewhat else to serve instead.

That is not what I was saying at all. Re-read. The first three paragraphs (as well as the link at the end) are spent outlining the reasons for more treaties and for the prolonged peace and don't mention Vox at all -- they simply don't factor into it. The salient cause is the increase in the number of alliances and what this means for strategic considerations.

I wrote a couple of paragraphs on Vox and their global implications because they were a subject of discussion. That I wrote on them doesn't imply that the world revolves around them. However, as far as they go, they act as a stifle to political debate and divergence.

[Branimir]

A number of reasons, some I wont drag into public as they involve other people but what it all boiled down to basically was that I was not personally having fun due to the atmosphere of the alliance.

I see. Thank you for the answer.

[King Srqt]

You were one of half a dozen people that reported him. Face facts you had an anarchistic government so players were free to do what ever the hell they wished. Thats one of the reasons Vox is no longer an anarchy. When Admin proposed changing the voting requirements to make it hard for multies to vote many of your members screamed bloody murder. And when the requirements were changed Kingzogs votes dropped like a stone. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. And you can try and defend yourself all you want but that misses the point. My point was that you lost the moral high ground. You can try and argue till you are blue in the face that you weren’t using multies but that doesn’t change the fact that most especially the people you were trying to win over, ie. our allies, believed you were. So argue all you want but you are just going to be blue in the face.

It no different with your defense on the raid of the green senate. I didn’t say it violated game rules. I said it lost you the moral high ground. Game rules and morality are not the same thing.

I was actually the only one who reported him. I reported him after DerekJones called that particular nation out in public and I PMd him to ask if he had any proof other than the nation name and to ask why the nation hadn't been reported (I checked the report forum before sending the PM) he responded by saying he assumed someone else had reported him and that is when I filed the report. If you can find evidence to support your claim as I did mine feel free to provide it otherwise I will just take your baseless accusations of cheating for what they are.

The moral high ground and the perceived moral high ground are not the same thing and I assure you at that point in time Vox had no interest in winning over your allies.

Edited March 12, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Azaghul]

That is not what I was saying at all. Re-read. The first three paragraphs (as well as the link at the end) are spent outlining the reasons for more treaties and for the prolonged peace and don't mention Vox at all -- they simply don't factor into it. The salient cause is the increase in the number of alliances and what this means for strategic considerations.

I wrote a couple of paragraphs on Vox and their global implications because they were a subject of discussion. That I wrote on them doesn't imply that the world revolves around them. However, as far as they go, they act as a stifle to political debate and divergence.

And I was disagreeing your last sentence and assertions about Vox.

Without Vox and the NpO drama last summer, there had been little going on the forums since the UJW except for some senseless trolling of GPA for a while by people looking for a mass tech raid (not a real war).

[Vilien]

You were one of half a dozen people that reported him. Face facts you had an anarchistic government so players were free to do what ever the hell they wished. Thats one of the reasons Vox is no longer an anarchy. When Admin proposed changing the voting requirements to make it hard for multies to vote many of your members screamed bloody murder, hmm I wonder what they were doing to help the voting effort. And when the requirements were changed Kingzogs votes dropped like a stone. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. And you can try and defend yourself all you want but that misses the point. My point was that you lost the moral high ground. You can try and argue till you are blue in the face that you werent using multies but that doesnt change the fact that most, especially the people you were trying to win over ie. our allies, believed you were. So argue all you want but you are just going to be blue in the face. It no different with your defense on the raid of the green senate. I didn’t say it violated game rules. I said it lost you the moral high ground. Game rules and morality are not the same thing.

The moral high ground? You lost the goddamn moral high ground when you killed half a dozen alliances.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Vilien

[Raider]

You were one of half a dozen people that reported him. Face facts you had an anarchistic government so players were free to do what ever the hell they wished. Thats one of the reasons Vox is no longer an anarchy. When Admin proposed changing the voting requirements to make it hard for multies to vote many of your members screamed bloody murder, hmm I wonder what they were doing to help the voting effort. And when the requirements were changed Kingzogs votes dropped like a stone. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. And you can try and defend yourself all you want but that misses the point. My point was that you lost the moral high ground. You can try and argue till you are blue in the face that you werent using multies but that doesnt change the fact that most, especially the people you were trying to win over ie. our allies, believed you were. So argue all you want but you are just going to be blue in the face. It no different with your defense on the raid of the green senate. I didn’t say it violated game rules. I said it lost you the moral high ground. Game rules and morality are not the same thing.

Get your facts right. The Admin changed two things: that nations in peace mode can't be voted as senators and that a nation must be on a team for 15 days to vote for senators. I don't know where this multi rumor came from. Vox Populi never made any effort to use multis. I know, I was I member at the time. What we did was PM the entire (or nearly) red team. They voted for the Vox Populi senator.

[Vladimir]

And I was disagreeing your last sentence and assertions about Vox.

Without Vox and the NpO drama last summer, there had been little going on the forums since the UJW except for some senseless trolling of GPA for a while by people looking for a mass tech raid (not a real war).

Notwithstanding your unrelated position on the GPA, I fail to see where you disagreed with what I said. You simply asserted that there has been no true 'great war' since the UJW. My post wasn't denying that, it was an explanation of why it was the case. Moreover, if I am saying that Vox act as a disincentive to things happening on the forum, then arguing that nothing happens on the forum except Vox's fillibustering isn't actually contradicting me -- it's just supporting a premise that my point stands either with or without.

[Minilla Island]

Folks;

There will be a major war probably next year. But, what is needed is a trigger. I can say, I miss people like HeroOfTime. They caused a lot of mischief on the boards. That is what triggers fights. Problem is that too many people are afraid of doing anything except saying "Hail, your name here" or other canned saying because they are afraid of getting reported, and that is a big problem. Too many people play the "I'm telling Mommy" game in order to get someone burned for utter nonsense. With something such as this over your head, you'd have to be a fool to play troll.

[Mirreille]

I understand what Vox was trying to do post GWIV but they really lost the moral high ground rather quickly with IRC raids, multies voting for senate, the green Senate fiasco, etc. When it became clear that their path wasn't going to succede they should have backed off and let the game take a different path. Because as it stands now we have been on this path for a year and it sucks.

Vox is coming on 7 months existence, so the part I bolded can't be left at their door. If you are seriously saying a handful of active posters from a tiny AA with crippled or peace mode nations has been able to control the CN forums then I think you are giving them far too much credit.

Also, people like you who keep referring to micro AAs as somehow being a part of the problem are just chasing shadows. There is no reason for the top 50-100 AAs to not simply ignore most of the small/micro AAs while conducting their business between each other. Small to Micro AAs usually only hold one or two treaties, and many of them are simply protectorates. I think the real problem is there are more AAs with more power then there were back in the early days. Vladimir's essay mentions that point, the power is no longer centralised as it was in the early days. You have 13% of all nations being nuclear armed, that is just one example of this phenomena. It is simply a lot more work to form any kind of coalition now.

[GTTofAK]

The moral high ground? You lost the goddamn moral high ground when you killed half a dozen alliances.

We don't need the moral high ground. Vox needed the moral high ground to accomplish their goals. They needed it more than anything else on planet bob and it was the first thing they lost. I knew after the IRC raids that Vox was effectively neutered.

Get your facts right. The Admin changed two things: that nations in peace mode can't be voted as senators and that a nation must be on a team for 15 days to vote for senators. I don't know where this multi rumor came from. Vox Populi never made any effort to use multis. I know, I was I member at the time. What we did was PM the entire (or nearly) red team. They voted for the Vox Populi senator.

Once again you are arguing till you are blue in the face. It doesn't matter what the reality was. It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong about your use of multies. All that matters is that people believed you were using mulites. But that aside I do find it funny that your leaderless anarchistic alliance claims to know what everybody was doing.

[GTTofAK]

Vox is coming on 7 months existence, so the part I bolded can't be left at their door. If you are seriously saying a handful of active posters from a tiny AA with crippled or peace mode nations has been able to control the CN forums then I think you are giving them far too much credit.

Also, people like you who keep referring to micro AAs as somehow being a part of the problem are just chasing shadows. There is no reason for the top 50-100 AAs to not simply ignore most of the small/micro AAs while conducting their business between each other. Small to Micro AAs usually only hold one or two treaties, and many of them are simply protectorates. I think the real problem is there are more AAs with more power then there were back in the early days. Vladimir's essay mentions that point, the power is no longer centralised as it was in the early days. You have 13% of all nations being nuclear armed, that is just one example of this phenomena. It is simply a lot more work to form any kind of coalition now.

I bolded the ironic part for you.

[Electron Sponge]

Vladimir, once again you use a thousand words to exposit on not very much.

First, you really should rethink your stance regarding post-GPW politics and discussion. There was no such conjecture over stagnation. Since you took pains to beat the younger players over the head with your vast experience you should at least do them the favor of not lying to them.

To the point of my post however - you spent a bit of time saying how Vox Populi actually stifles debate. You and I both know that's complete nonsense. You can't back up your hypothesis with anything more than some subtle name calling and aspersion casting. (Don't think that it is lost on me that you misspelled 'dumbing down' while talking about the low intellectual value of our posts, either. Way to go, Mr. Smarty Pants. You sure showed us what quality is.) Also I know for a fact that your assertion that we have advanced the cause of unity amongst the leadership of the hegemony is entirely false, because as you point out we do a bit of spying.

I'd say the fact that an Imperial Officer thinks we'd be best suited by disbanding is pretty much a raison d’être.

[Incitatus]

Some people claim that in order for a war to be a Great War it must include LUE vs NPO...but I disagree. I believe a Great War is defined by a group of alliances that have a close/same/more amount of total Nation-Strength as NPO & friends, and the two "blocs" butt heads.

Without NPO as the center piece of the war....it cannot be considered a Great War. With that said I think that there will only be one Great War that will occur in the next two years.

[Vilien]

We don't need the moral high ground. Vox needed the moral high ground to accomplish their goals. They needed it more than anything else on planet bob and it was the first thing they lost. I knew after the IRC raids that Vox was effectively neutered.

You need the moral high ground as much as you need your nukes. No amount of strength that you can currently muster is going to save you if you continue to tread upon so many people.

[Rebel Virginia]

You were one of half a dozen people that reported him. Face facts you had an anarchistic government so players were free to do what ever the hell they wished. Thats one of the reasons Vox is no longer an anarchy. When Admin proposed changing the voting requirements to make it hard for multies to vote many of your members screamed bloody murder, hmm I wonder what they were doing to help the voting effort. And when the requirements were changed Kingzogs votes dropped like a stone. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. And you can try and defend yourself all you want but that misses the point. My point was that you lost the moral high ground. You can try and argue till you are blue in the face that you werent using multies but that doesnt change the fact that most, especially the people you were trying to win over ie. our allies, believed you were. So argue all you want but you are just going to be blue in the face. It no different with your defense on the raid of the green senate. I didn’t say it violated game rules. I said it lost you the moral high ground. Game rules and morality are not the same thing.

Actually, kingzog stayed in the senate despite the changes in senate voting. His votes began to drop after Vox members began to become apathetic and stopped messaging red nations as much as they did prior. However, he was still third in votes and could have remained in that place for many months more. However, kingzog became bored with the game and deleted. Valek deleted shortly after. That is when Vox decided to end their senate campaign and move to yellow.

Once again you are arguing till you are blue in the face. It doesn't matter what the reality was. It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong about your use of multies. All that matters is that people believed you were using mulites. But that aside I do find it funny that your leaderless anarchistic alliance claims to know what everybody was doing.

Actually, the only people who seem to believe Vox used multis are, well, you and a few other NPO and Q alliance members. Hardly a majority.

The only thing I think that may have had that type of effect was the "bastion" leak since I believe the leak of that info did a lot of harm to the formation of that bloc.

Doubtful. Vox is working with less up to date intelligence than the NPO, and have far fewer sources. Anything Vox knows about the NPO has probably already learned at least a week prior. And yes, that includes the "Bastion" bloc.

Has it escaped you that such threads use to easily reach way more than that and at times over 100 pages. No one give a damn about the forums anymore because Vox monopolizes the whole damn thing. A small group of loud forum trolls with an ax to grind that have driven off the real driving forces of the game and completely killed the drama. No one cares anymore. The major leaders avoid the forums like the plague now. There is absolutely 0 real politic going on for the masses to see. Sure there most stuff has always been handled offsite but there was a time when the forums were jumping with the real politics of the game along with the usual **** fest. Today its just the **** fest.

Uh, no. No, no, no, no, no. No.

If anything, Vox has reinvigorated the forums. I mean, ever since Vox began there has been actual discussion on politics. Before that all we had were pages upon pages of hailing, and nobody dare criticized the actions of the ruling hegemony. Things are different now. There is lively debate on the forum. That is a huge improvement over what we had before.

Now, as for the politics. Yes, you are correct. All major developments are handled off site and in private channels. It has always been that way. Perhaps there was a time when the masses could see it done, but that hasn't been for a long time. And no, Vox is not responsible for it disappearing. It began to disappear shortly after the Third Great War perhaps, but the culture of private channels really became what it is today with the formation of the Continuum. Don't blame Vox for the stagnation. Massive blocs are the cause of that.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[General Specific]

At first I was like:

I have named the destroyers of nations: comfort, plenty, and security - out of which grow a bored and slothful cynicism, in which rebellion against the world as it is, and myself as I am, are submerged in listless self-satisfaction.

But then I was like:

The people come with nets to fish for potatoes in the river, and the guards hold them back; they come in rattling cars to get the dumped oranges, but the kerosene is sprayed. And they stand still and watch the potatoes float by, listen to the screaming pigs being killed in a ditch and covered with quicklime, watch the mountains of oranges slop down to a putrefying ooze; and in the eyes of the people there is the failure; and in the eyes of the hungry there is a growing wrath. In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage.

Then I got distracted...

and remembered to ask: Is the juice worth the squeeze?

But then I LOL'd

Edited to explain that this was posted as an answer to the topic of when the next "great" war will be. Sorry if it seems too flip, but this is meant to be a serious OOC reply.

Edited March 13, 2009 by General Specific

[Nintenderek]

I opened this topic hoping to give my opinion on the next great war, and then I found out it's actually a Vox Populi topic in disguise. I don't know how it happened, but I'm just gonna leave now, because I've given my opinion on this subject in the countless threads about it before this one

[The Eye]

This is not a Vox Populi thread. Nor is it an 'X is ruining the game' thread. Let this be a warning to all participants in the thread. Further off topic posts will be dealt with more harshly.

[Starcraftmazter]

We already had a poll on this, and I feel this one is unnecessary.

[D34th]

We already had a poll on this, and I feel this one is unnecessary.

For some poll addicts of OWF polls are always necessary