Next Great War

[Branimir]

Your OOC persona can share opinions with your IC persona, can it not?

What we have here is basically another IC area in its fullest.

I had my doubts this forum would ever lived up to what is supposed to be.

Anyway, Ill play my character and try to rip on yours in the IC areas. OOCly, I do not know you and am not to be bothered in such context with just continuing the IC. Then, just drop the pretext of the forum we are in so I will know in what I am in for.

Cheers.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Branimir

[Branimir]

Double, my apologies--- wanted to edit, hit the reply button

Edited March 12, 2009 by Branimir

[Blacky]

lol

We're the only ones doing anything and you accuse us of sucking the life out of the game?

Sponge, claiming you're the only ones doing anything is wrong. Some of us are still rebuilding (maybe if the game design made that a little easier it would help and mind you a large group of people are constantly petitioning for it to be so. But since threads in the suggestion forums require mod approval they never see the light of day) So while some of us are rebuilding others are waiting. You can not circumvent this process with willpower alone.

tl;dr

all we can do is sit and wait

[theArrowheadian]

Unlike you I have faith in the players of the game.

I quote this because I find that hard to even have that. If by faith you mean, no desire or fear of changing the status quo then yes, I'd agree. I've lost faith in this community, I now turn and look to tyrants and wait for their actions.

[j0shua]

It's never going to happen. )):

what? an allince is now ganging up on me! (would that cause a great war?)

[theArrowheadian]

what? an allince is now ganging up on me! (would that cause a great war?)

No.

[D34th]

Use Vox as excuse to people do not post on forums and excuse to current status quo of game is the worst argument I saw in this forums since HoT was banned.

:lol:

[BamaBuc]

While GTT is wrong, he does raise one interesting idea: That Vox may actually be preventing a split in the hegemony. I've heard it said that Vox is self-defeating because it unites the world against it. Sponge and everyone else arguing with GTT, your thoughts on that?

-Bama

[King Srqt]

While GTT is wrong, he does raise one interesting idea: That Vox may actually be preventing a split in the hegemony. I've heard it said that Vox is self-defeating because it unites the world against it. Sponge and everyone else arguing with GTT, your thoughts on that?

-Bama

The only thing I think that may have had that type of effect was the "bastion" leak since I believe the leak of that info did a lot of harm to the formation of that bloc.

Edited March 12, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Margrave]

While GTT is wrong, he does raise one interesting idea: That Vox may actually be preventing a split in the hegemony. I've heard it said that Vox is self-defeating because it unites the world against it. Sponge and everyone else arguing with GTT, your thoughts on that?

-Bama

How does that even make sense? I don't see how Vox is a uniting organization; it has its stated enemies. The only reason there is "Unity" against it is a bunch of alliances wanted to bandwagon in favor of NPO. How many of those alliances have no real political interest and no real interest in Vox only they know, but I think its a safe bet to say they really don't care.

[BamaBuc]

The only thing I think that may have had that type of effect as the "bastion" leak since I believe the leak of that info did a lot of harm to the formation of that bloc.

True, but I'm referring more in the general sense. As long as the "power cluster" has the common enemy of Vox opposing them at every turn (while never posing a sufficient enough threat to actually destroy the cluster), they'll be less likely to fight among themselves. But yes, Bastion is a very good example of that. In fact, Sponge's Tattler has probably done more to hurt Vox's cause than anything.

-Bama

[ChairmanHal]

To all those "woe is me the community is dying" people: It's dying so well it's back over 30k nations.

Honestly, get off of it.

To those of you who say there will never be another "Great War", some of you still think we've not fought GW IV. Please. As for the rest of you, your ignorance of Planet Bob history is showing.

Events behind the scenes unfold in their own time and while it is fun to speculate what certain moves coming to the surface mean, the realities of the behind the scenes stuff take us closer to large wars than most all of you realize.

The only thing that can be said for certain is: there will be blood. Perhaps sooner, perhaps later, but it will happen.

[Margrave]

True, but I'm referring more in the general sense. As long as the "power cluster" has the common enemy of Vox opposing them at every turn (while never posing a sufficient enough threat to actually destroy the cluster), they'll be less likely to fight among themselves. But yes, Bastion is a very good example of that. In fact, Sponge's Tattler has probably done more to hurt Vox's cause than anything.

-Bama

I disagree (Other than the Bastion leak, which was a bad idea).

Also, Mary is on the thread, perhaps sanity has arrived?

[GTTofAK]

How does that even make sense? I don't see how Vox is a uniting organization; it has its stated enemies. The only reason there is "Unity" against it is a bunch of alliances wanted to bandwagon in favor of NPO. How many of those alliances have no real political interest and no real interest in Vox only they know, but I think its a safe bet to say they really don't care.

There is only so much room for antagonists Margrave. I think we can all say that the NPO vs. Vox phase of this game has been a complete and total failure. Now we just need it to become an abject failure so the game can move on.

[Proxian Empire]

What's this? You expect the CoaLUEtion/League/AEGIS to re-form and fight NPO not once but TWICE sometime this year? I think you overestimate the power of the CoaLUEtion/League/AEGIS, since we would need them to have a GW4 then a GW5.

[GTTofAK]

To all those "woe is me the community is dying" people: It's dying so well it's back over 30k nations.

Honestly, get off of it.

To those of you who say there will never be another "Great War", some of you still think we've not fought GW IV. Please. As for the rest of you, your ignorance of Planet Bob history is showing.

Events behind the scenes unfold in their own time and while it is fun to speculate what certain moves coming to the surface mean, the realities of the behind the scenes stuff take us closer to large wars than most all of you realize.

The only thing that can be said for certain is: there will be blood. Perhaps sooner, perhaps later, but it will happen.

Yeah behind the scenes. It didn't use to always be totally behind the scenes. The degradation of the forums into a 24/7 Vox gripe fest have made the interludes between war an absolute hell. Which makes the game for the average player stink. But then agian I'm just a soldier which in the modern game with so many micro alliances might be the rarity. It seems there are so many alliances with so many government positions that government positions are like Boxing title belts.

Edited March 12, 2009 by GTTofAK

[D34th]

While GTT is wrong, he does raise one interesting idea: That Vox may actually be preventing a split in the hegemony. I've heard it said that Vox is self-defeating because it unites the world against it. Sponge and everyone else arguing with GTT, your thoughts on that?

-Bama

While I think that Vox and their Tattler, TWiP and spies make Q and Citadel leaders think twice before throw diplomacy away or leave their blocs, they aren't important enough to unite people when a serious drama come out, those leaders will not say "You fooled me but I'll forgive you because we need stay together against Vox."

[Carter]

In eleventy years

[King Srqt]

Yeah behind the scenes. It didn't use to always be totally behind the scenes. The degradation of the forums into a 24/7 Vox gripe fest have made the interludes between war an absolute hell. Which makes the game for the average player stink. But then agian I'm just a soldier which in the modern game with so many micro alliances might be the rarity. It seems there are so many alliances with so many government positions that government positions are like Boxing title belts.

I would talk to your own alliance and close allies about that then since they are the ones who like to throw out Vox as a red herring against anyone who dares criticize them and who tend to be the ones who bring Vox up in nearly every thread that is made regardless of their relevance to the topic.

Edited March 12, 2009 by KingSrqt

[jackyseto123]

Summer time, when the Government lets the dogs(kids) out and we all have a fun time dealing with incompetent bigots, raiders, and Leaders, thus ending to competent Leaders becoming 'ole giant bigots and rollin' on sum haytaz.

One of them bigots best be connected to Legion because I'm Nuclear and GEEEYET SUM.

[Vladimir]

I really can't understand how the idealistic claptrap continues to persist in the face of, what seems to me, such blatantly obvious facts.

Take it from someone who has been in the war room since Bob popped into existence: the lack of a great war is not down to 'kids these days' being cowards or signing too many treaties or anything like that -- indeed, most of the kids these days are the same as kids those days. This is nothing but an attempt to put an intellectual face on the 'MORAL DECAY!' diatribes that Soviestan used to find in its right-wing tabloids (prior to the Free Press Initiative that shut them down).

It is also nothing that we haven't heard before. Post-GPW the treaty web was a subject of central discussion, and the cold war supposedly had no possible end -- and contrary to the selective use of charts, the web was pretty much 'everyone but the Orders' until we built the Initiative and slowly developed a counter-bloc (which even then was linked to the other side). Then post-GW3 everyone said a variant of the same thing, 'all the powers are allied, history has ended!' When history was pointed out the rebuttal was again the same as today, with claims of a new global paradigm, and that things haven't gone 'this far' before. Of course, as history demonstrates it was all complete tosh. Yet every epoch we come back to exactly the same thing, no matter how many times it's proven wrong. Every epoch is the last epoch, every new global system is the static unmovable object that the previous one wasn't. Yawn. The inability of the international community to conceive of the world's ever-changing nature never gets old.

Now, as that implies, to say that we've jumped through all these hoops before isn't to say that things haven't changed over time. Treaties have indeed become more prevalent. Great wars have indeed spaced themselves out more. But there are rather simple explanations to this that don't depend on the vulgar appeal to the personalities of 'great men'. Treaties are more because there are many times more alliances. How many alliances were deemed important enough to make it onto that global GW2-era chart? 19? 19 alliances wouldn't buy you the start of a coalition these days, never mind both sides of a global war. And not only do more alliances necessarily mean an exponential growth in treaties by the sheer mathematics, but they also demand an increase in diplomacy, since alliances have less relative power and rely more on allies. The Order (or an alliance like it) could no longer waltz across the globe taking out its enemies as we did pre-GPW when we owned half the global strength -- the Unjust Pact and the antics of Electron Sponge proved this beyond doubt. And this in turn provides us with a real reason for the increasingly greater spaces seen between great wars -- simply put it becomes harder for counter-hegemonic blocs to form as a result of the disincentives in place.

As far as Vox goes (and I hesitate to get into this debate, but since my name was mentioned relating to the subject earlier...), I agree that they act as little more than a stifle to political debate. Little can be said without them jumping in en mass with one of their tedious anti-intellectual talking points to derail proceedings, and, while I wouldn't put the status of the greater political world down to this (I'd put that down to what I outlined above), I would suggest that it plays a significant role in the general dumbing down of the forum (similar in many ways to the role that early LUE and post-war FAN played). Of course, due to their whor... loudness, they are far more of a presence than their place in the structure justifies, and this in turn means that the practical effects of their position are amplified.

I would suggest that this position is, as many have previously suggested, no more than to advance the cause of unity at the top levels that they claim to fight against, not to mention that their spying plays an important role in forcing alliances to keep information in smaller and smaller circles for security. In short, Vox act as an incentive towards everything they hate, and their vocal protests amplify this incentive over its material weight. Or in other words, if Vox wanted to advance their cause they would disband, since their existence is counter-productive. Not that I would advise this, since I think their cause is rather 'misplaced' to begin with and wouldn't want to see it advanced.

At the risk of Vox bringing up one of their handful of anti-intellectual talking points, you can read my original point in more detail here: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outwards_Spiral

Edited March 13, 2009 by Vladimir

[GTTofAK]

Let me ask this. If Vox hadnt formed do any of you actually think the world would look the same as it does today?

Personally I think that it would have been impossible for this unipolar world to hold together without Vox. If you had asked me 1 and a half years ago if a unipolar world could exist in CN for this long I would have told you that you were dreaming but I never dreamed that such an impotent antagonist would rise and hold on for so damn long. Hell GKC and Everton didn't even try and keep that kind of crap up for any lenght of time.

I understand what Vox was trying to do post GWIV but they really lost the moral high ground rather quickly with IRC raids, multies voting for senate, the green Senate fiasco, etc. When it became clear that their path wasn't going to succede they should have backed off and let the game take a different path. Because as it stands now we have been on this path for a year and it sucks.

Edited March 12, 2009 by GTTofAK

[Chickenzilla]

Let me ask this. If Vox hadnt formed do any of you actually think the world would look the same as it does today?

Personally I think that it would have been impossible for this unipolar world to hold together without Vox.

I understand what Vox was trying to do post GWIV but they really lost the moral high ground rather quickly with IRC raids, multies voting for senate, the green Senate fiasco, etc. When it became clear that their path wasn't going to sucede they should have backed off and let the game take a different path. Because as it stands now we have been on this path for a year and it sucks.

The world is not unipolar anymore. Anyone who says so is an idiot, or is trying to pretend like the tensions are not there.

[King Srqt]

Let me ask you this. If Vox hadn’t formed do any of you actually think the world would look the same as it does today?

yes, possibly a bit more boring but as a whole, yes.

I understand what Vox was trying to do post GWIV but they really lost the moral high ground rather quickly with IRC raids, multies voting for senate, the green Senate fiasco, etc. When it became clear that their path wasn't going to secede they should have backed off and let the game take a different path.

I believe there was one raid about 7 or 8 months ago, the green senate was won covertly but well within the rules and what multies? If you are going to accuse people of breaking rules you should provide proof and do it in the proper forum.

[GTTofAK]

I believe there was one raid about 7 or 8 months ago, the green senate was won covertly but well within the rules and what multies? If you are going to accuse people of breaking rules you should provide proof and do it in the proper forum.

Nation Name: I'm Voting for Kingzog