Never bring an Umbrella to a gun fight

[JoshuaR]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358634193' post='3080276']
Yeah, within 4 minutes. That is some speed. One would thing that someone so efficient, and dedicated to Blood in Blood out would also stagger.
How else to get the Blood out part right.
[/quote]
It only requires six nukes.

I also don't remember if puppets signed the Yo Momma version of BIBO or not. But in that one you get hit with seven days of PMs containing Yo Momma jokes. The horror.

Also, in case people don't remember. Kowalski, a beloved Umbrellan and signatory of BIBO, left us for our good ally in VE. He was hit and nuked.

[Chief Savage Man]

Staggers are for protracted conflicts where the intent is to ground a particular nation into dust.

BIBO is not about completely destroying one of our own. That would just be dumb.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358632847' post='3080257']
I like when you quote me.. then parrot what I have said all along. I dont know how many more times I can say it... I would have done exactly what you did in the current political setup. One year ago, you woulda done nothing, I have no problem with any of this. Just stop with the "we were aggrieved!" nonsense. Many of your allies have abandoned that and embraced the truth... follow suit.
[/quote]

Except I'm not parroting you at all.

What you're saying is that it's Ai or its allies fault that Umbrella can no longer get away with being complete my idols. Umbrella can no longer wantonly engage in CB-less wars with its allies or get away with what it attempted to here. This is a political reality that you would be better suited addressing towards Umbrella, and not the holders of a CB you admit is completely valid.

[Amossio]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1358632314' post='3080246']
BIBO needs to die.. and no alliance should be permitted to use it. To me it simply is slot filling by another name and I pray Admin steps on it eventually and everyone who has ever confessed to utilizing it.
[/quote]

you're going to force us to change our policies?why don't you just give us a viceroy like the good old days heh

Edited January 19, 2013 by Amossio

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1358626439' post='3080174']
Too bad AI hasn't made the effort we have repeatedly in the past. Instead they issue threats, complain and throw a fit. They made practically no effort in working with Umbrella because it was their intent to escalate a situation that should have been resolved otherwise. But yeah AI would have been right if it weren't for their refusal to even try it.
[/quote]

Except you forget that Umb never tried either. You would have a point if Umb had gone to Ai first, but that never happened. Thus, you whole point is moot. Again, since Puppets rogued Ai and not Umb, then the onus is on Umb to initiate any talks not on Ai. Instead, Umb said "This is our internal policy so $%&@ you Ai and do something about it". So, given that attitude, Ai did something about it.

Now we get to listen to GOONs and Deinos whine about this and somehow blame Ai over the stuff that Umbrella did.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1358634456' post='3080282']
Except I'm not parroting you at all.

What you're saying is that it's Ai or its allies fault that Umbrella can no longer get away with being complete my idols. Umbrella can no longer wantonly engage in CB-less wars with its allies or get away with what it attempted to here. This is a political reality that you would be better suited addressing towards Umbrella, and not the holders of a CB you admit is completely valid.
[/quote]

You have just shown that you have not read my posts at all.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358629111' post='3080215']


Lets be perfectly clear.... I have no problem with this CB... with this war.. if I were AI, id have done EXACTLY the same thing. But, my friend, when you went a round of wars as AI did , without DoWing MK... or hitting the lone guy on FOK... or DoWing Dark Templar for doing EXACTLY this same thing.... you cannot run in on the moral high ground and claim outrage. I maintained from day 1.... and Brehon and a few others can attest to this... after the 1st rounds incident, AI should have announced that they considered his slots their slots. However, when you ignore something one week, then act on it a 2nd week, when a completely different party is the violator, it does NOT give you a moral high ground, it gives you what everyone knew everyone was waiting on.. something that would fly with their allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]

Reminds me how GOONS !@#$ themselves at the thought of fighting DT. DT must be an awesome military force.

[danizduhman]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1358634409' post='3080280']
It only requires six nukes.

Also, in case people don't remember. Kowalski, a beloved Umbrellan and signatory of BIBO, left us for our good ally in VE. He was hit and nuked.
[/quote]
Truth.

[acrux]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1358631339' post='3080235']
lol, puppets tried to be the first to respond to that thread. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
[/quote]

[quote][img]http://i46.tinypic.com/24fk8qv.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Do you realize who Raman Mew-Mew is... you just stomped on NPO...

Edited January 19, 2013 by acrux

[Branimir]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1358634409' post='3080280'] Kowalski, a beloved Umbrellan and signatory of BIBO, left us for our good ally in VE. He was hit and nuked.[/quote]
Good ally being key words here (also no rogue!). But the practice in case of non allies, because it goes against common norm established during now 7 years when dealing with rogue nations, can be (and in this case obviously is) not accepted especially under circumstances it took place (mainly speed fallowed with no stagger).

Hence, the war.
[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1358634418' post='3080281']BIBO is not about completely destroying one of our own. That would just be dumb.[/quote]
Well, then its not really "BIBO" then. You should rename it to something more appropriate. But of course, that is open to personal understanding of the phrase. Thanks for the clarification though. Your own did managed to start a war, as he wished (referring to his comment in his "DoW" thread).

Edited January 19, 2013 by Branimir

[Omniscient1]

It's also funny watching DH supporters argue over a CB.

[the rebel]

Well atleast Umbrella finally get to actually fight in a war, thought it would stop them complaining.... Looking through this thread I was wrong.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358635004' post='3080293']
Good ally being key words here. But the practice in case of non allies, because it goes against common norm established during now 7 years, can be (and in this case obviously is) not accepted especially under circumstances it took place (mainly speed fallowed with no stagger).

Hence, the war.[/quote]How so? Umbrella hits BIBO targets hard. They even hit a good ally's member for BIBO after they let Umbrella. If anything this shows that the policy of BIBO is not waived depending on the alliance of the BIBO target or the situation surrounding them, but that is shows that BIBO targets will be hit, regardless of the situations surrounding them.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358635004' post='3080293']
Well, then its not really "BIBO" then. You should rename it to something more appropriate. But of course, that is open to personal understanding of the phrase. Thanks for the clarification though. Your own did managed to start a war, as he wished (referring to his comment in his "DoW" thread).
[/quote]
No, BIBO is the hitting of people who left Umbrella who signed the BIBO agreement.

Stop acting like Umbrella did some uber dastardly thing here. Umbrella is utilizing BIBO, the same as they always have. It just so happens that AI took offense to this one specific instance of BIBO and brought their friends to the yard for the fight.

Thats all it is. This is as good a CB as any, but don't try to claim BIBO is some uber evil thing or that you have gobs of high ground here, because you don't. THis is just another war, nothing more, nothing less. You found the excuse you were looking for, and you took it to start the war that everyone has wanted for months now.

Its ok, you don't need ot be some justice crusade riding to war against the evils of BIBO. Its ok for this to be just another war and not some crusade where the justice league must ride out to destroy the evils of BIBO and save the princess.

[danizduhman]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1358635363' post='3080298']
How so? Umbrella hits BIBO targets hard. They even hit a good ally's member for BIBO after they let Umbrella. If anything this shows that the policy of BIBO is not waived depending on the alliance of the BIBO target or the situation surrounding them, but that is shows that BIBO targets will be hit, regardless of the situations surrounding them.


No, BIBO is the hitting of people who left Umbrella who signed the BIBO agreement.

Stop acting like Umbrella did some uber dastardly thing here. Umbrella is utilizing BIBO, the same as they always have. It just so happens that AI took offense to this one specific instance of BIBO and brought their friends to the yard for the fight.

Thats all it is. This is as good a CB as any, but don't try to claim BIBO is some uber evil thing or that you have gobs of high ground here, because you don't. THis is just another war, nothing more, nothing less. You found the excuse you were looking for, and you took it to start the war that everyone has wanted for months now.

Its ok, you don't need ot be some justice crusade riding to war against the evils of BIBO. Its ok for this to be just another war and not some crusade where the justice league must ride out to destroy the evils of BIBO and save the princess.
[/quote]

I miss you Caliph

[jraenar]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1358635117' post='3080296']
Well atleast Umbrella finally get to actually fight in a war, thought it would stop them complaining.... Looking through this thread I was wrong.
[/quote]
You expect them to give up an opportunity to be offended? Hard to cultivate a feeling of superiority that way.

[acrux]

Those who have never been in umbrella dont understand BIBO, clearly. It's you know that kind of 'loyal at all costs I will protect the umbrella dedication and if I shall leave I'm not scared to lose my ever so precious pixels that 99% in thie game are' agreements.

We have even BIBO members who left because they thought the grass may be greener on the other side only to come back and realize they just had to water the lawn here because in honesty, with bias I'm sure.. umbrella is probably one of the best communites in game.

Umbrella has never tried to duck a war, what happened was everyone ducked umbrella. Umbrella will only beat itself after the years of being 'beyond dangerous' and rolling into years of boredom since no one would come and play. CN will/hasn't/didn't beat umbrella... the game coming down in numbers, wars, excitement is/will be the only reason umbrella ever takes a true 'loss'

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1358634086' post='3080274']
We did not have anything to do with the first stagger being blown.
[/quote]

I apologize for my mistake then. Forgot that it was Timmeh, some dude from FOK (this is the one I thought was Umb instead) and a member of DT.

As for everything else, the only real issue I see, is why did Umb not go to Ai from the very beginning (ie before the first set of slots were blown) to discuss coordination against Puppets? If Umb saw Puppets as a rogue to Umbrella, then it would only make sense to go to Ai and begin discussions. From what I can tell and have heard, this never happened. Instead, Umb did not consider Puppets a rogue until after he got out of PM, in which point his slots were taken within seconds of his coming out of PM. I understand that Umb is active but that is just ridiculous to believe anyone is that active. I could understand Lusitan (around 4 minutes after he left PM) but the others that were within seconds of his leaving, that would mean that he had to have coordinated with them and they would have to have been set to declare war (ie on the screen) the moment he left to make it that fast, particularly with custom sayings. This is due to the feeling that I doubt they sat around for a while just refreshing Puppet's nation waiting for him to come out of PM.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1358631609' post='3080238']
You don't understand BIBO then. BIBO has been applied to signatories of it who have left Umbrella. I didn't sign it so I didn't get BIBO'd when I left Umbrella, but if you look at the past numerous other nations have gotten hit over BIBO.

BIBO may or may not have been used in this particular case to "steal" Puppet's war slots from AI, but it is not something that was just made up for this singular purpose.
[/quote]

Oh I understand it and never cared for it. I also know when I see it being used as an excuse. Regardless, Umbrella custom doesn't trump AI's right to puppet's defensive slots, particularly when an obvious nuke rogue was going in for another round.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1358601921' post='3079867']


I think he meant your other allies in C&G.
[/quote]

If my allies in CnG decide to defend Umbrella I can find no fault in that either. I think any alliance here would defend an ally if there was a shred of doubt in the CB. There's a shred so I'm good to give the benefit of that doubt. I'm not really being critical of any of my allies actions here.

[Chief Savage Man]

The reemergence of the term 'nuke rogue' gives me great hope for the future.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1358634418' post='3080281']
Staggers are for protracted conflicts where the intent is to ground a particular nation into dust.

BIBO is not about completely destroying one of our own. That would just be dumb.
[/quote]

Except I thought that Puppets was a rogue and thus no longer considered to be part of Umbrella? So either you are mistaken in the belief that BIBO considers Puppets to be part of Umbrella, or you are mistaken in your phrasing. Otherwise, this would be seen as Umbrella basically sanctioning Puppets going rogue on Ai and would be contradictory to previous statements about Umb considering Puppets to be a rogue.

Staggers are not only for grounding a nation to dust. It is used to ensure a nation does not hit PM so that it can be hurt to the point of surrendering and ending a war. If the nation wishes to fight on, then that is on the nation. You are only considering one aspect of the use of a stagger.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1358635363' post='3080298']Umbrella hits BIBO targets hard. [/quote]
But doesn't stagger. Big problem for targeted alliances and why your definition of hard is not satisfactory for them in case of dedicated big warchest rogue attack on them
[quote]but that is shows that BIBO targets will be hit, regardless of the situations surrounding them.[/quote]
Yes, the inflexibility which is in this case and under this circumstances a serious problem.
[quote]Stop acting like Umbrella did some uber dastardly thing here. [/quote]
Where have I done that? You must have misunderstood me.

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1358634086' post='3080274']
puppets is a rogue. He left Umbrella. That's all part of why we hit him. His words are not our words. When he says that this was [b]planned[/b], he means it was [b]planned by him[/b]. He told us he was done with CN if there wasn't a war by Christmas. There wasn't. So he went about his plan of quitting the game, and that plan entailed hitting various nations that he didn't like or something. He also planned to escape to PM for another round. Either he asked the raider nations to attack him, or he posted on IRC about how he was a rogue, or by his declaration of war in Alliance Announcements, he made himself a target for raiders and anyone that could find a slot on him. He planned this. His plan worked.

You guys are attempting to blame Umbrella for the first round of attacks where not a single Umbrella member hit puppets. He was hit by nations on FOK, MK Applicant, and DT. After being hit, puppets' plan seems to have been to escape to PM, like many rogues before him. He succeeded in this, he rebought nuclear weapons. He came out, and he attacked more people. He then spent his warchest purchasing infrastructure to have more of a tactical advantage in these wars.

He also told us how this was his last round of war, and in that case a stagger doesn't even matter. Of course, you could blame Umbrella for being gullible and buying into a lie, if that's what it was, but you can also look at the fact that puppets bought a ton of infra after declaring his wars as evidence that he didn't care about saving a warchest for another round of war.
[/quote]

Everything that this man has said is the absolute truth. Take note of it.

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1358626967' post='3080186']
Umbrella made its desires quite clear the second time they filled Mo9P's slots and the third time over all they blew a stagger on a rogue attacking us. You seem to be of the opinion Ai should have passed the peace pipe around again after the third and most blatant incident, when Umbrella already knew full well after the first time they blew Puppets stagger that we were tired of having random people from their alliance stealing our slots on rogues.
[/quote]
[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1358627646' post='3080191']
Puppets has admitted that filling his defensive war slots the first time to get into peace mode and restock to 25 nuclear weapons was umbrellas plan. Every one of the 25 nukes he bought in peace mode then sent to Ai was Umbrellas plan. Ai was 100% entitled to attack Umbrella once the first nuke hit, but before that they filled his defensive slots again to continue the process. Any talk of this being the end of his rogue ways is just a reaction to the DoW
[/quote]

There are only so many times that I can correct you and others on this before just realizing that you have an extra chromosome to deal with.
I went rogue on December 25th. After posting my rogue/quitting/dow thread, three nations declared on me. FOK, MK Applicant, & DT. You'll notice that none of those alliances are named Umbrella.

After that single round of war, I slipped into peace mode because I could- since the raiders broke my stagger. If AI was on top of their game, I'm sure they could have slipped someone in to DoW me at update.

I then spent 12 days rebuying my nukes, and then left peace mode. Before I declared my new set of wars, I logged onto IRC and said that I was out of peace mode, and declaring in minutes. Three Umbrella members then declared on me. I proceeded to declare my wars, and blow my entire 4.5 bil warchest. As JoshuaR stated, this should be proof enough that I'm out after this round, so stop whining that the stagger was broken- it is irrelevant.

During this time, I also fed 2 AI intel spy ops per day to Doomhouse. They have most of the upper tier now.

When I say "this was the plan", I mean that this was [i]my[/i] plan, not Umbrellas. My plan was to start this war, and I succeeded. Sorry dudes, you know you all wanted it.

[Amossio]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1358634587' post='3080286']

Except you forget that Umb never tried either. You would have a point if Umb had gone to Ai first, but that never happened. Thus, you whole point is moot. Again, since Puppets rogued Ai and not Umb, then the onus is on Umb to initiate any talks not on Ai. Instead, Umb said "This is our internal policy so $%&@ you Ai and do something about it". So, given that attitude, Ai did something about it.

Now we get to listen to GOONs and Deinos whine about this and somehow blame Ai over the stuff that Umbrella did.
[/quote]

if umb had gone to AI this little charade just be postponed, the truth is NPO wants DH alongside yourselves, it was just just a matter of time in terms of acquiring the cb, whether this had been handled differently still would not change the present situation but just postpone it. The very fact that your sphere worked towards to ensure more lines drawn and extensive measures to deal with DH, umbrella in particular which plans had been drawn out months ago prove that.

Which obviously leads the current situation being handled to be pretty poor, the history over the last 6 months between both alliances is what truly led to this, we never said oh $%&@ AI either, what we said is our policies that are done through the membership needs to be exercised because is within our rights through self determination. AI could have coordinated the attacks together with umb and would have got plenty of opportunities in the future to do so. This situation was even more so an excuse taken by alliances such as yours and NPO in particular that wants DH and stated before that they wanted DH. True perhaps both sides could have handled things better, us and AI, but what I'm mainly getting at is it didn't happen because both alliances sees each other as an antagonist. Mainly because both thinks one is going to roll the other. I don't put past NPO in the slightest to have orchestrated several paths that led to the current situation, but they are good at FA, that much is undeniable.

But with all honesty docha, no matter how much arguments happen, people will only see polar opposites of what is being said, that being said I still love you dearly and will always do so

[Caliph]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1358635716' post='3080306']
Oh I understand it and never cared for it. I also know when I see it being used as an excuse. Regardless, Umbrella custom doesn't trump AI's right to puppet's defensive slots, particularly when an obvious nuke rogue was going in for another round.
[/quote]
Eh, it certainly gives Umbrella the right to some of Puppets war slots. Whether or not that trumps AI's right to them as well ... that is why the war, no?