Announcement from Non Grata

[Monster]

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1335755970' post='2960989']
I love how people are treating this as some significant move when NG still has treaties with most of the alliances in PB. Redundancy for the win!

And for heaven's sake, everyone and their brother knows that Umbrella has no idea what to do when it comes to their treaties, why are we discussing it here?
[/quote]

Only two. GOONS and FOK.

Keep in mind this is essentially a severing of ties with VE. They're still treatied to 2/3rds of DH. Umb and NG have never gotten along, but that's irrelevant because of the MK and GOONS treaties.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[NationRuler]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335758405' post='2960999']
Only two. GOONS and FOK.

Keep in mind this is essentially a severing of ties with VE. They're still treatied to 2/3rds of DH.
[/quote]

:negative:

'Facts' not entirely accurate

Edit: Actually they are! That was a confusing "they're". My apologies.

Edited April 30, 2012 by NationRuler

[Monster]

[quote name='NationRuler' timestamp='1335758590' post='2961000']
:negative:

'Facts' not entirely accurate
[/quote]

Where exactly? I edited anyway. I know Umb doesn't like NG and vice versa, but given they're treatied to your two closest allies I don't really it see it as being a huge difference other than the fact that they may not get direct support. I guess that does make a difference if NG gets into some raid situation, but MK and GOONS will back them up anyway. That's why it's DH/C&G now.

Though, given that Umb on NG is a possibility now, albeit a remote one, I wouldn't know who to root for tbh.

edit: nvm

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[trimm]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335758405' post='2960999']
Only two. GOONS and FOK.

Keep in mind this is essentially a severing of ties with VE. They're still treatied to 2/3rds of DH. Umb and NG have never gotten along, but that's irrelevant because of the MK and GOONS treaties.
[/quote]

But, due to those treaties, NG is still tied pretty strongly to PB, especially given their statements in this thread about following said treaties. So, NG will still probably roll with PB in most cases, it will just take a little longer. So again I ask, what exactly has changed here?

[Monster]

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1335760825' post='2961013']
But, due to those treaties, NG is still tied pretty strongly to PB, especially given their statements in this thread about following said treaties. So, NG will still probably roll with PB in most cases, it will just take a little longer. So again I ask, what exactly has changed here?
[/quote]

Okay, prior to this, there were three MK treaty partners in Pandora's Box, now there are only two. Given one of the issues was the treaties that VE holds extraneous to the bloc and the fact that there were complaints about FOK's conduct in the last war because of their external treaties, it makes it a lot less obvious as to what PB will do given there's no majority now.


Here's what the PB treaty says:

[quote]Each signatory which has outside treaties agrees that those treaties will not chain to PB, and that PB will not chain to any outside treaty. Should a signatory find itself obligated to act because of an outside treaty, a vote will take place determining PB's course of action. The window for voting concerning war is 24 hours. Votes not cast within this time-frame are considered nulled. Should the vote pass with 66% in favor, defense becomes mandatory for each signatory. Should the vote fail with less than 66% in favor, defense becomes voluntary for each signatory. Offense is always voluntary and a vote is not required.[/quote]

There is no way to make a 66% vote or even a simple majority in favor of x, y, or z at this point with only four signatories when two alliances aren't going along with stuff.


GOD and R&R are fundamentally opposed to MK/NG and vice versa, so it will come to a head at some point.


The main change is that MK has lost its grip on PB, more or less.

I have previously described Non Grata as a martial and diplomatic arm of the Mushroom Kingdom given that was Ardus' take, so this all makes sense.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[King Wally]

Once the Grey Council gets the green light to finalise its membership into PB you're all screwed... one vote to swing them anyway they want hey... the neutral-pocalypse is begining!!!

[img]http://theworldofhowey.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/endisnear.jpg[/img]

[Azaghul]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335748369' post='2960949']the misadventures of its non-allies
[/quote]
Usually a "misadventure" means that something is a failure, and our coalition was very successful. MHA/Sparta's indirect defense of Polar and on a broader level SF, would be better described as a misadventure.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Azaghul

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1335763347' post='2961031']
Usually a "misadventure" means that something is a failure, and our coalition was very successful. MHA/Sparta's indirect defense of Polar and on a broader level SF, would be better described as a misadventure.
[/quote]

Actually, if you want to debate it I'd argue your endeavor was too successful.

You probably should have taken a lot less credit and did a lot less jumping up and down about the stars aligning in your favor and merely being the ones to describe the constellations to the masses. The point is that the term misadventure applies for Umbrella. They did not gain anything from the action and yet still lost -- as evidenced by the ungreatfulness of someone like Crymson and other allied and non-allied entitties -- or the simple fact they also lost direct allies -- valued or not-- in the process. There was nothing to gain from their perspective -- unless you count seeing Fark's upper tier demolished by someone's hands other than their own. Appeasing Non Grata has seemingly not been high on their list of "things to do," as of late, and really it was really just an awkward exhibition of either political indifference or willing subservience to those whom quite openly exhibit a degree of jealousy and/or untrust towards them as evidenced by the painful realization that Umbrella did not do more to impale themselves on others spears for causes they did not champion.

As for MHA/Sparta's defense of their treaty partners -- It's really hard to take you seriously if you didn't think the writing was on the wall. What would you have them do? Make your job easier so you can pick them off later individually?

It's not like after your failed attempt to get Sparta to flip sides you didn't just openly trash them because they stood in the way of your objective when days earlier you were singing them praises of the utmost.

You know this already so I'll just tip my hat for making me write out what you already know.

Edited more: Redundancy

Edited April 30, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Monster]

But Myth, there's no jealousy and distrust because I mean it's not like MK didn't go out of the way to highlight their loss of 250k tech in the previous war.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335763930' post='2961039']As for MHA/Sparta's defense of their treaty partners -- It's really hard to take you seriously if you didn't think the writing was on the wall. What would you have them do? Make your job easier so you can pick them off later individually? [/quote]
The writing was on the wall for FARK. Not for MHA and Sparta. MHA was mildly disliked by many for being a bloated alliance that didn't really deserve the #1 spot, but the amount of intense dislike was low. Sparta was never a target, at least among MK and as far as I know our allies (I can't speak for others such as NPO.)

Do I blame them for supporting their allies? No. After all MK once did the same thing in a worse situation.

I'm just pointing out how your use of "misadventure" is misapplied, as you said "the misadventures of its non-allies".

[quote]It's not like after your failed attempt to get Sparta to flip sides you didn't just openly trash them because they stood in the way of your objective when days earlier you were singing them praises of the utmost.[/quote]
I don't remember people trashing them after they didn't want to switch sides and voiced their commitment to go down with the XX ship and prove that they aren't an alliance that always just jumped onto the winning side. MK in general, and some others, respected them for their commitment despite it not being in our interests.

Many of us still had a high opinion of them until, instead of accepting their chosen fate and going into the war bravely and with their heads held high, whined incessantly (especially to ODN/Umbrella that they weren't supporting them), cancelled on ODN, and hid a large number of their nations in peace mode.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Azaghul

[Monster]

ODN deserved to be cancelled on for preempting Sparta's ally. JA did facilitate it, but it was a !@#$ move nonetheless.

As for pm nations, it was always Sparta's plan to up their involvement, especially if they weren't countered. I had discussions with Luka about when I was still in Umbrella, since it appeared they might be ignored until they withdrew more nations from peace mode. Silent Spectre's lack of activity during the war which was an issue with milcom overall prevented any action before everyone started attacking them. It has already been revealed the would-be plan was to hit GATO, which would have made more sense than hitting the more connected alliances that attacked Fark, given those alliances were overdeployed in 1 v 3 style configurations. Once they were countered, they made their decision to tell AO and TTK to stay out despite having offers of assistance.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1335765505' post='2961054']
The writing was on the wall for FARK. Not for MHA and Sparta. MHA was mildly disliked by many for being a bloated alliance that didn't really deserve the #1 spot, but the amount of intense dislike was low. Sparta was never a target, at least among MK and as far as I know our allies (I can't speak for others such as NPO.)

Do I blame them for supporting their allies? No. After all MK once did the same thing in a worse situation.

I'm just pointing out how your use of "misadventure" is misapplied.[/quote]

I'm just going to write off your argument that MHA and Sparta should have betrayed their new blocmates and/or long-time allies for the squeaky clean sure-to-not-stab-your-back Mushroom Kingdom as absurd.

Proof positive being your reaction to Sparta declining your offer -- leaving aside the fact they entertained it for another time.


[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1335765505' post='2961054']
I don't remember people trashing them after they didn't want to switch sides and voiced their commitment to go down with the XX ship and prove that they aren't an alliance that always just jumped onto the winning side. MK in general, and some others, respected them for their commitment despite it not being in our interests.[/quote]

You're either lying or being intentionally dishonest.

Edited April 30, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Monster]

The myopic mentality that Umbrella and MK share is probably the thing they have most in common. "You're not allowed to be mad at us even if we screwed you over."

[Azaghul]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335765904' post='2961057']
I'm just going to write off your argument that MHA and Sparta should have betrayed their new blocmates and/or long-time allies for the squeaky clean sure-to-not-stab-your-back Mushroom Kingdom as absurd.[/quote]
That's not my argument. I don't blame them for supporting the allies that they did. But that doesn't change the fact that they chose the side that was likely to lose. Or that there was "writing on the wall" that they would be "next". For their block because of FARK, but not so much for Sparta and MHA specifically.

[quote]Proof positive being your reaction to Sparta declining your offer -- leaving aside the fact they entertained it for another time.

You're either lying or being intentionally dishonest.
[/quote]
Do you have any substantive evidence of us "openly trashing them" before the war? As MK high gov, I think I know more about what we were saying to and about them than you do.

[Monster]

Given both MK and Non Grata wanted Umbrella to drop MHA, I don't think that's the case. 1337 Guy's impassioned appeal to Johnny made it very clear MK wanted to reduce MHA to rubble. zoom also went to Umbrella's forums to demand a downgrade at minimum.

Let's just say MK was more successful than zoom.

I agree Fark made a lot of enemies in the Pandora's Box/Doomhouse sector since they weren't very smart in the Pandoran War and there were legitimate grievances. Even some people in Sparta recognized this and that distrust between Umbrella and Fark would hurt them, but to say extreme negative sentiment was limited to Fark is inaccurate.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1335768667' post='2961068']
That's not my argument. I don't blame them for supporting the allies that they did. But that doesn't change the fact that they chose the side that was likely to lose. Or that there was "writing on the wall" that they would be "next". For their block because of FARK, but not so much for Sparta and MHA specifically. [/QUOTE]

The tangental argument that because MHA and Sparta had the opportunity to betray their "real," allies (if you will,) to delay an eventual rolling given everything else going on and even your own words indicating at least a minimal of disdain for either entity is something that could be held against them is a joke. That their other allies had a problem with them supporting their allies is really just nonsense. It would be just as absurd as holding it against STA for defending Polar if you had offered to not attack them in the endeavor.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1335768667' post='2961068']
Do you have any substantive evidence of us "openly trashing them" before the war? As MK high gov, I think I know more about what we were saying to and about them than you do.
[/quote]
Yes. There were a couple threads where the soreness spewed over. This is not including the actual DoW threads where they were slammed for defending their allies and not capitulating to your requests (demands.)

I'm not going to go get them and list them per post and/or irc log for you as you're more than capable of finding them yourself, but if you're truly interested I'm sure Sparta's higher gov would be more than happy to confirm my iteration here in query for you.
But you're not really interested in that. I am however interested in who you're trying to fool with your argument.

[Monster]

Oh right, I guess I should mention I unintentionally gave the smoking gun that lead to the downgrade on MHA even though JA and mrcalkin and co. had been actively pushing it for a while because I told JA Myth was whitneys, and then JA turned it over to Ardus, who turned it over to bros. I was upset since I had no intentions of outing Myth in a general sense since he was leaking intel and I didn't want it to stop. The only issue I took with his posting was me having too much confidence in Umbrella to not fulfill his prophecies. I was given the excuse that all the ips ended up being leaked anyway when I voiced my discontent of how my info was used.

Also I hold no regrets over trying to extract monetary aid(when I was in Sparta) in a less than "ethical" sense from Umbrella when the geniuses like JA and most of the membership were labeling me a loon/conspiracy theorist/!@#$% upon my expulsion/resignation from Umbrella, because screw you. Of course, I'd want to get even.

<Roq[Sparta]> i look forward to raken's slots too
[16:07] <Roq[Sparta]> so far out of complete scumbags I have maybe 20-30 slots
[16:07] <Roq[Sparta]> awesome
[16:08] <Roq[Sparta]> mrcalkin, raken, nfl, joshuar
[16:09] <Roq[Sparta]> and getting shiki's aid is another 6
[16:10] <Roq[Sparta]> hm who else in umbrella likes MK


The fact that Umbrella still gets a limited amount of flak despite being one of the most treacherous alliances around is depressing.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[potato]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335770645' post='2961074']
Yes. There were a couple threads where the soreness spewed over. This is not including the actual DoW threads where they were slammed for defending their allies and not capitulating to your requests (demands.)

[b]I'm not going to go get them and list them per post[/b] and/or irc log for you as you're more than capable of finding them yourself, but if you're truly interested I'm sure Sparta's higher gov would be more than happy to confirm my iteration here in query for you.
But you're not really interested in that. I am however interested in who you're trying to fool with your argument.
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=107231"]Maybe you should have.[/url] It would have saved you what little credibility you still might have.
There are nine MK commments in Sparta's DoW. Four from Banksy, two from Teh1337Guy, one from alyster, one from Denial and one from BJ. At best, those from alyster and BJ could be considered "slamming". And I'm being generous in the definition. None of those relate to defending their allies however.

But you're not really interested in that. I am however interested in who you're trying to fool with your argument.

Edited April 30, 2012 by potato

[Monster]

Teh 1337 Guy's comments can be considered representative of the Kingdom, and he went on to trash Sparta for not actually defending their allies, despite Sparta's deployment being in accordance with Fark's wishes. Hell, I personally predicted Sparta only declaring BAPS/Olympus because it made the most sense. So it was basically from him and MK, "if you weren't going to defend your allies anyway, why didn't you take the offers we gave you?"

Here's another gem:


[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1323128484' post='2864559']
It's ok, I'm sure Sparta will continue to be too scared to touch TOP.
[/quote]

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[Laslo Kenez]

In regards to Sparta, before the war-time breakdown that they had, we were very much getting along with them and actually wanted to avoid each other if at all possible (a request we did honour). From our perspective they completely flipped over a course of days from a rational and reasonable alliance, to one that claimed the Fark - NPO thing was okay and that we shouldn't expect to defend them, despite recently resigning our strange PIAT treaty with military clause and TLR signing a very pointed ODAP. Before the war, as I understood it, Sparta were expected to be "looked after" in the sense that everyone knew that they had a tough time ahead of them but that they'd developed the relationships to probably see it through. They dropped the ball horribly on that one.

It's something I spoke with Leet Guy about a bit at the time, and he was of a pretty similar mindset vis a vis Sparta and their postwar prospects.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[Monster]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1335778559' post='2961087']
In regards to Sparta, before the war-time breakdown that they had, we were very much getting along with them and actually wanted to avoid each other if at all possible (a request we did honour). From our perspective they completely flipped over a course of days from a rational and reasonable alliance, to one that claimed the Fark - NPO thing was okay and that we shouldn't expect to defend them, despite recently resigning our strange PIAT treaty with military clause and TLR signing a very pointed ODAP. Before the war, as I understood it, Sparta were expected to be "looked after" in the sense that everyone knew that they had a tough time ahead of them but that they'd developed the relationships to probably see it through. They dropped the ball horribly on that one.

It's something I spoke with Leet Guy about a bit at the time, and he was of a pretty similar mindset vis a vis Sparta and their postwar prospects.
[/quote]

It was reasonable. I mean, it's already been explored in-depth why Fark hit NPO. That's not to say Fark wasn't expecting TLR. They had planned on just not having TLR countered. On a military planning level, even if the execution wasn't good, it was a brilliant plan. It's no surprise if Sparta doesn't want relationships with people like MK, tbh. Given all of C&G's BS has been shown to have been overwrought hysterics for propaganda purposes, I don't think you have a leg to stand on at this point.


"FARK'S PREEMPT WAS REALLY BAD SO WE'RE GOING TO PREEMPT MHA DESPITE THE FACT THAT MHA'S OFFENSIVE CAPACITY IS KNOWN TO BE LIMITED" seriously.

Both of you are equally patronizing and condescending, so I'm not surprised in the least.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[Stewie]

The funny thing is that pre-war we had recieved intel that Sparta had quite frankly said that they would not support a FARK war where they supported Polar. I guess that is why FARK opened up a second front.. seriously? Who knows what they were thinking, we can but speculate.

But this is not a discussion thread for such things.


Non Grata have left Pandora's Box. Now back to your regular OWF daily babble.

[Lanore]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335778902' post='2961088']
"FARK'S PREEMPT WAS REALLY BAD SO WE'RE GOING TO PREEMPT MHA DESPITE THE FACT THAT MHA'S OFFENSIVE CAPACITY IS KNOWN TO BE LIMITED" seriously.
[/quote]

[spoiler]

So there's this big family reunion just before Christmas. Everyone is attending for the most part, except for a few. You see a war has broken out between some of our distant cousins the Avengers and the U.S.S.P .

Everyone is so happy to see each other though. We really don't get together enough, you know? We all have our own opinions of the war but we've decided to be polite for the meal and family time so things go smoothly. That us until Granddad Pacifica starts debating with a few of the youngsters about politics, as he is want to do. He states during the debate that he supports the Avengers. Well a few of the relatives are shocked but pass it off. Granddad NPO has always had vocal political beliefs. He's just an old guy now anyway.

However a few relatives are kind of hurt by this, mainly Fark and FAN. They have friends who are fighting and dying at the hands of the Avengers and they find his remarks to be very insensitive. Well after they simmer for a bit they decide to tackle granddad. Now Pap Pap Pacifica is strong for sure, be he's old, and just isn't the man he used to be. Sure enough big brother TLR and cousin NG, off of duty for a bit shortly after having joined the navy and the marines respectively, decide to jump into the fight to help out Granddad.

In short order, like most of my family reunions, everyone is fighting and screaming at each other. GATO, ODN, and MHA are sitting the fight out, watching everyone get at it. For the most part GATO/ODN/MHA have been asked to stay out of the fight by our big bro's, TLR and Fark. They say they might need help later, and that they don't want us to hurt ourselves. It's a fair assessment, since the three of us are a bit more soft around the waist compared to our relatives fighting. So we stand back and cheer from the side lines, waiting for the fight to end so we can all eat dinner.

MHA however is worried. Their Big Bros Fark and Sparta are getting beat up, and they don't know what to do. They get nervous, start wringing their hands, and looking around frantically for some form of inspiration. This is when it happens. They see a rock on the ground. They bend over to pick it up, intending to throw it at our cousin NG. GATO and ODN see MHA bend down and grab the rock, and we fear that he is going to hurt TLR. Sure it is a small rock. It will only do a limited amount of damage, but we are worried all the same.

Within the second it took him to pick it up, we played the scenario over in our heads a million times. Feuled on Adrenaline and fear, GATO balls up his fist and slams MHA in the throat with it, and then after he drops the rock, ODN tackles him. The fight continues and then all our friends get involved.

After the fight, though MHA, Fark, and RnR were cool about it, Sparta took it personally. You see he'd had a crush on ODN for a while. He felt hurt and betrayed that ODN, one of his best friends, would fight with MHA, his other best friend. ODN and GATO tried to explain that we felt we had to. We even, in several different occasions apologized for various areas we thought went wrong. But Sparta holds onto the grudge even though we never wanted to fight at all.

Now everyone feels like crap except for certain groups in the family that support each other, and nobody will talk to one another. In a year or so I guess we will all forgive and have another family reunion around Christmas, because that is how it seems to work.

God I hate family reunions. [/spoiler]

[Stewie]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1335785700' post='2961100']
[spoiler]

So there's this big family reunion just before Christmas. Everyone is attending for the most part, except for a few. You see a war has broken out between some of our distant cousins the Avengers and the U.S.S.P .

Everyone is so happy to see each other though. We really don't get together enough, you know? We all have our own opinions of the war but we've decided to be polite for the meal and family time so things go smoothly. That us until Granddad Pacifica starts debating with a few of the youngsters about politics, as he is want to do. He states during the debate that he supports the Avengers. Well a few of the relatives are shocked but pass it off. Granddad NPO has always had vocal political beliefs. He's just an old guy now anyway.

However a few relatives are kind of hurt by this, mainly Fark and FAN. They have friends who are fighting and dying at the hands of the Avengers and they find his remarks to be very insensitive. Well after they simmer for a bit they decide to tackle granddad. Now Pap Pap Pacifica is strong for sure, be he's old, and just isn't the man he used to be. Sure enough big brother TLR and cousin NG, off of duty for a bit shortly after having joined the navy and the marines respectively, decide to jump into the fight to help out Granddad.

In short order, like most of my family reunions, everyone is fighting and screaming at each other. GATO, ODN, and MHA are sitting the fight out, watching everyone get at it. For the most part GATO/ODN/MHA have been asked to stay out of the fight by our big bro's, TLR and Fark. They say they might need help later, and that they don't want us to hurt ourselves. It's a fair assessment, since the three of us are a bit more soft around the waist compared to our relatives fighting. So we stand back and cheer from the side lines, waiting for the fight to end so we can all eat dinner.

MHA however is worried. Their Big Bros Fark and Sparta are getting beat up, and they don't know what to do. They get nervous, start wringing their hands, and looking around frantically for some form of inspiration. This is when it happens. They see a rock on the ground. They bend over to pick it up, intending to throw it at our cousin NG. GATO and ODN see MHA bend down and grab the rock, and we fear that he is going to hurt TLR. Sure it is a small rock. It will only do a limited amount of damage, but we are worried all the same.

Within the second it took him to pick it up, we played the scenario over in our heads a million times. Feuled on Adrenaline and fear, GATO balls up his fist and slams MHA in the throat with it, and then after he drops the rock, ODN tackles him. The fight continues and then all our friends get involved.

After the fight, though MHA, Fark, and RnR were cool about it, Sparta took it personally. You see he'd had a crush on ODN for a while. He felt hurt and betrayed that ODN, one of his best friends, would fight with MHA, his other best friend. ODN and GATO tried to explain that we felt we had to. We even, in several different occasions apologized for various areas we thought went wrong. But Sparta holds onto the grudge even though we never wanted to fight at all.

Now everyone feels like crap except for certain groups in the family that support each other, and nobody will talk to one another. In a year or so I guess we will all forgive and have another family reunion around Christmas, because that is how it seems to work.

God I hate family reunions. [/spoiler]
[/quote]

Haha, That's actually awesome. Nice work Lanore.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335765685' post='2961055']
[b]ODN deserved to be cancelled on for preempting Sparta's ally. JA did facilitate it, but it was a !@#$ move nonetheless.[/b]

As for pm nations, it was always Sparta's plan to up their involvement, especially if they weren't countered. I had discussions with Luka about when I was still in Umbrella, since it appeared they might be ignored until they withdrew more nations from peace mode. Silent Spectre's lack of activity during the war which was an issue with milcom overall prevented any action before everyone started attacking them.[b] It has already been revealed the would-be plan was to hit GATO,[/b] which would have made more sense than hitting the more connected alliances that attacked Fark, given those alliances were overdeployed in 1 v 3 style configurations. Once they were countered, they made their decision to tell AO and TTK to stay out despite having offers of assistance.
[/quote]


The 2 bolded sections make me smile alot. Sparta cried to ODN for actually DOING what Sparta had planned to do. For actually DOING what SilentSpectre tried to do with regards to MK... but ODN deserved to cancelled on, and Sparta did not deserve to get &%^* on. Too funny.