Announcement from Non Grata

[Goldie]

Roq, there really is no questioning Sparta's lack of commitment for their allies (our enemies are beating the crap out of our blocmates, let's hit BAPS and Olympus!), their general unwillingness to fight (hiding nations in peace mode has been their M.O. for years), and the general sad way they carried themselves in the war (making enemies of old friends, cancelling ODN, etc).

I know it is politically expedient for you to defend them, but stop.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335763930' post='2961039']
by the ungreatfulness of someone like Crymson[/quote]
Why are people worried about how greatful Crymson is to their alliance? Its Crymson for Johan sakes.

The fact he can show up and rile you folks up is pretty hilarious.

[Stewie]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335768842' post='2961069']
Given both MK and Non Grata wanted Umbrella to drop MHA, I don't think that's the case. 1337 Guy's impassioned appeal to Johnny made it very clear MK wanted to reduce MHA to rubble. zoom also went to Umbrella's forums to demand a downgrade at minimum.

[/quote]

Nowhere in our embassy with Umbrella does it demand a MHA downgrade

EDIT: Looking through our QnA, it was Dylan Carter who was talking about PB as a whole working out several downgrades/cancellations.
EDIT 2: Think I found where you were talking about. Doesn't look like "demanding" a downgrade

Edited April 30, 2012 by Stewie

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Roquentin']
"FARK'S PREEMPT WAS REALLY BAD SO WE'RE GOING TO PREEMPT MHA DESPITE THE FACT THAT MHA'S OFFENSIVE CAPACITY IS KNOWN TO BE LIMITED" seriously.

Both of you are equally patronizing and condescending, so I'm not surprised in the least.
[/quote]

A) I have been pushing for someone to call me condescending for months. Thanks!

B) You are absolutely right, we should always underestimate rivals and never overestimate their capacity to cause harm, particularly when we receive intel to the end that our allies are in danger. Good job on trying to simplify it, but you weren't quite there.

[Monster]

I mean, given your status as an MK toadie, you shouldn't be surprised. Peas in a pod.

The grave MHA threat must be stopped regardless of the accuracy of our intel! "Preempts are only bad if it's Fark attacking NPO"


[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1335793853' post='2961131']
Roq, there really is no questioning Sparta's lack of commitment for their allies (our enemies are beating the crap out of our blocmates, let's hit BAPS and Olympus!), their general unwillingness to fight (hiding nations in peace mode has been their M.O. for years), and the general sad way they carried themselves in the war (making enemies of old friends, cancelling ODN, etc).

I know it is politically expedient for you to defend them, but stop.
[/quote]


How about no? It was only requested that they hit BAPS/Oly. I know facts aren't a big deal in the corner of the world VE has chosen to inhabit, but lol. The "old friends" you describe made them into enemies and I've described the vast list of offenses on the part of your corner.

I can't really say for years since you're describing the bad performance in Karma, which lead to a purge. In BiPolar, Sparta's help was appreciated. I mean I feel pretty sorry for the fact that they ever spent any soldiers on MK and Athens because it's turned out to have been a horrendous mistake.


Honestly, goldie, like I said cancelling ODN was the right thing to do. I wasn't really surprised.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[Mr Vicarious]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1335793853' post='2961131']
Roq, there really is no questioning Sparta's lack of commitment for their allies (our enemies are beating the crap out of our blocmates, let's hit BAPS and Olympus!), their general unwillingness to fight (hiding nations in peace mode has been their M.O. for years), and the general sad way they carried themselves in the war (making enemies of old friends, cancelling ODN, etc).

I know it is politically expedient for you to defend them, but stop.
[/quote]


As Sparta's ally, I think I'm in a pretty good position to allay any fears you might have about their commitment to allies. It's a non-issue, especially when they are treated as equals by said allies. You don't hear us complaining about their dedication in the previous war, do you?

[Monster]

[quote name='Mr Vicarious' timestamp='1335799939' post='2961163']
As Sparta's ally, I think I'm in a pretty good position to allay any fears you might have about their commitment to allies. It's a non-issue, especially when they are treated as equals by said allies. You don't hear us complaining about their dedication in the previous war, do you?
[/quote]

Yeah, well, Mr. Vicarious a lot of people like Mssrs. such as Rush Sykes seem to have the inside scoop and say Fark was really upset with Sparta. I think you're the actual authority, though.

Anyway, I wonder how it would have played out if NG had left PB prior to the war.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1335793887' post='2961132']
Why are people worried about how greatful Crymson is to their alliance? Its Crymson for Johan sakes.

The fact he can show up and rile you folks up is pretty hilarious.
[/quote]

Why? Because his point of view is not unshared among the multiple people Umbrella went out of their way to help in the past war.


[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335728889' post='2960833']
[img]http://i.mediatakeout.com/avatars/1288297569-1658-stewie-griffingif.jpg[/img]

How dare you, Umbrella. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif[/img]

Your political maneuvering was completely insufficient!
Fighting someone elses battles was not enough. You should have been pre-empting your direct allies instead of attacking their MDoAP partners through optional aggression treaties while ignoring mutual and optional defense treaties with your other allies. And Fark, man! Fark! Don't get me started on how you absconded here! I mean come on -- downgrading and ignoring treaties just to grease the wheels aside -- what's the extra step in being on Fark a whole week before you're completely out of range? I just don't get why you wouldn't want to do this for us.

In fact, you should have been doing the upper tier work for your non-allies. I get that this really is none of your concern at all and you probably have no business in it whatsoever, but why not just grind your own upper tier down for our gain? It is totally in your best interest to be subservient to the will of your non-allies, and let's face it: Who wants to have to read a bunch of posts attempting to justify why you should be doing our work for us? You might as well just do it, because we're going to be ungreatful ingrates either way.

You have some nerve.

Also -- I am really saddened by the departure of Non Grata from PB. Just crocodile tears.
[/quote]


Azaghul says it wasn't a misadventure for Umbrella.
[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1335763930' post='2961039']
Actually, if you want to debate it I'd argue your endeavor was too successful.

You probably should have taken a lot less credit and did a lot less jumping up and down about the stars aligning in your favor and merely being the ones to describe the constellations to the masses. The point is that the term misadventure applies for Umbrella. They did not gain anything from the action and yet still lost -- as evidenced by the ungreatfulness of someone like Crymson and other allied and non-allied entitties -- or the simple fact they also lost direct allies -- valued or not-- in the process. There was nothing to gain from their perspective -- unless you count seeing Fark's upper tier demolished by someone's hands other than their own. Appeasing Non Grata has seemingly not been high on their list of "things to do," as of late, and really it was really just an awkward exhibition of either political indifference or willing subservience to those whom quite openly exhibit a degree of jealousy and/or untrust towards them as evidenced by the painful realization that Umbrella did not do more to impale themselves on others spears for causes they did not champion.

As for MHA/Sparta's defense of their treaty partners -- It's really hard to take you seriously if you didn't think the writing was on the wall. What would you have them do? Make your job easier so you can pick them off later individually?

It's not like after your failed attempt to get Sparta to flip sides you didn't just openly trash them because they stood in the way of your objective when days earlier you were singing them praises of the utmost.

You know this already so I'll just tip my hat for making me write out what you already know.

Edited more: Redundancy
[/quote]



Also Roq : I never leaked any information other than a private gut feeling -- one that unfortunately turned out to be spot on.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335799540' post='2961162']
I mean, given your status as an MK toadie, you shouldn't be surprised. Peas in a pod.
[/quote]

Did you really just call GATO an MK toadie? [i]Really[/i]?

Edited April 30, 2012 by Ayatollah Bromeini

[Monster]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1335800603' post='2961168']
Did you really just call GATO an MK toadie? [i]Really[/i]?
[/quote]

Yes, I keep hearing about how Leet Guy is the best and how GATO loves MK. The MADP bloc GATO is in makes it an easy conclusion to reach. I've heard some people in GATO were upset with the MHA reps situation or whatever and wanted to leave C&G over it, so if either that's false or it never came fruition, pretty much yes. Minor disagreements that don't lead to anything are kind of meh. Not sure why this is surprising since I've identified DH/C&G as the core earlier in this thread that involves NG leaving and making the PB part of the DH/PB/C&G thing questionable.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335800235' post='2961164']
Yeah, well, Mr. Vicarious a lot of people like Mssrs. such as Rush Sykes seem to have the inside scoop and say Fark was really upset with Sparta. I think you're the actual authority, though.

Anyway, I wonder how it would have played out if NG had left PB prior to the war.
[/quote]

How the .... did I even get brought into this?

[Monster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1335801130' post='2961172']
How the .... did I even get brought into this?
[/quote]

Here, you said that people within Fark were saying that they were upset with Sparta's behavior during the war. Simple. I don't really want to have to find the logs, unless you're going to actually deny it.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335801199' post='2961173']
Here, you said that people within Fark were saying that they were upset with Sparta's behavior during the war. Simple. I don't really want to have to find the logs, unless you're going to actually deny it.
[/quote]

Why would I deny something? I have (had) friends in Fark , during and after the war (some are no longer there) who were less than happy with Sparta sitting safe while Fark burnt. But, its not relevant to this thread, and certainly was no reason for me to be mentioned by you.. yet again.

[Monster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1335801337' post='2961174']
Why would I deny something? I have (had) friends in Fark , during and after the war (some are no longer there) who were less than happy with Sparta sitting safe while Fark burnt. But, its not relevant to this thread, and certainly was no reason for me to be mentioned by you.. yet again.
[/quote]

Well, I didn't bring up Fark being upset with Sparta, goldie did. Your mention is a result of that. Don't treat it as completely out of the blue. The fact that some people lend credence to that claim is the issue since it becomes a widespread belief if it's not contested. That's all.

You're right though, it's kind of a digression at this point.

The original thing this line of discussion comes from is the claim that Umbrella didn't do enough for the war NG wanted.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335801406' post='2961175']
Well, I didn't bring up Fark being upset with Sparta, goldie did. Your mention is a result of that. Don't treat it as completely out of the blue. The fact that some people lend credence to that claim is the issue since it becomes a widespread belief if it's not contested. That's all.

You're right though, it's kind of a digression at this point.

The original thing this line of discussion comes from is the claim that Umbrella didn't do enough for the war NG wanted.
[/quote]

As I look at Goldie's post, I see no mention of Fark being unhappy. Or any other Sparta ally being unhappy. I see Goldie (correctly so, IMO) pointing out that Sparta displayed to their allies exactly what kind of commitment they have to them. One Fark member then stood up and said that Fark was perfectly ok with Sparta, and then somehow, you made the genius connection that Goldie said Fark was unhappy. Tongue-in-cheek recognition that Sparta chose safety over their allies is not a specific decree of any ally being ticked about it, but is a commentary on how those in VE may view Sparta's actions.

[Atanatar]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335800235' post='2961164']
Yeah, well, Mr. Vicarious a lot of people like Mssrs. such as Rush Sykes seem to have the inside scoop and say Fark was really upset with Sparta. I think you're the actual authority, though.

Anyway, I wonder how it would have played out if NG had left PB prior to the war.
[/quote]


In an alliance the size of Fark, you're going to find a massive disparity of opinion and thought between members. I would not be surprised to find a number of our members dissatisfied with one thing or another of the war, no matter what.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335801406' post='2961175']
Well, I didn't bring up Fark being upset with Sparta, goldie did. Your mention is a result of that. Don't treat it as completely out of the blue. The fact that some people lend credence to that claim is the issue since it becomes a widespread belief if it's not contested. That's all.

You're right though, it's kind of a digression at this point.

The original thing this line of discussion comes from is the claim that Umbrella didn't do enough for the war NG wanted.
[/quote]

To be honest, Umbrella did seem to be bouncing around the battlefield a bit during the war. I would hasten to add that at least they [i]fought[/i], other alliances I noted didn't even really show up, and not just because it would have turned the Jenga stack into slag.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1335801708' post='2961176']
As I look at Goldie's post, I see no mention of Fark being unhappy. Or any other Sparta ally being unhappy. I see Goldie (correctly so, IMO) pointing out that Sparta displayed to their allies exactly what kind of commitment they have to them. One Fark member then stood up and said that Fark was perfectly ok with Sparta, and then somehow, you made the genius connection that Goldie said Fark was unhappy. Tongue-in-cheek recognition that Sparta chose safety over their allies is not a specific decree of any ally being ticked about it, but is a commentary on how those in VE may view Sparta's actions.
[/quote]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335799540' post='2961162']
I mean, given your status as an MK toadie, you shouldn't be surprised. Peas in a pod.

The grave MHA threat must be stopped regardless of the accuracy of our intel! "Preempts are only bad...[\quote]

Let's stop right here, because once again you are working on false pretenses. The pre-empt was wrong because we had a relationship with NPO encouraging defense. It was not some objective wrong (others may differ) but it 'wronged' CnG. Our pre-empt was the right thing FOR US to do because of the situation and context. Again, others may differ.The important thing is we did what was right and responded to what wronged us.

Your first point is meaningless tripe I am bored of debating.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[Monster]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1335802143' post='2961181']
Couldn't have said it better myself.
[/quote]

The implication is that Sparta not showing commitment to their allies assumes sort of discontent amongst them. That's all. I'm not going to get into this further since it really is digressing.


I dunno Laslo, the spin between objective wrong and wrong in a specific sense is one you didn't clarify until now. Thanks for that. Fair enough, I guess. I don't really want to argue in circles, either.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335802697' post='2961186']
The implication is that Sparta not showing commitment to their allies assumes sort of discontent amongst them. That's all. I'm not going to get into this further since it really is digressing.


I dunno Laslo, the spin between objective wrong and wrong in a specific sense is one you didn't clarify until now.
[/quote]

Well, I think thats how we approached it with Sparta months ago. Regardless, it is what I expect of any alliance. We have our values, our allies and friends know em, and we stuck to them.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335802697' post='2961186']
The implication is that Sparta not showing commitment to their allies assumes sort of discontent amongst them. That's all. I'm not going to get into this further since it really is digressing.


I dunno Laslo, the spin between objective wrong and wrong in a specific sense is one you didn't clarify until now. Thanks for that. Fair enough, I guess. I don't really want to argue in circles, either.
[/quote]

Come now Roq, it's a pretty color they picked out to paper over their differences and they spent many hours picking it out. Don't go spoiling it by suggesting that it's only paper, it's impolite. Clearly all for forgiven, just ask them.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1335799540' post='2961162']
"Preempts are only bad if it's Fark attacking NPO"[/quote]

That is just begging to be made into a sig.

[Brehon]

[quote name='Atanatar' timestamp='1335801870' post='2961179']
In an alliance the size of Fark, you're going to find a massive disparity of opinion and thought between members. I would not be surprised to find a number of our members dissatisfied with one thing or another of the war, no matter what.
[/quote]

Logic has entered this thread. Everyone needs to use it accordingly and directly as they talk about what they "heard" and all that.

Edit: Am I really the only person left that doesn't see the FARK attack as a pre-empt? Seeing as it was my alliance that was attacked, how about I get to say if it was or wasn't? Guess what... it wasn't. It was just an attack.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Brehon

[Monster]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1335811824' post='2961214']
Logic has entered this thread. Everyone needs to use it accordingly and directly as they talk about what they "heard" and all that.

Edit: Am I really the only person left that doesn't see the FARK attack as a pre-empt? Seeing as it was my alliance that was attacked, how about I get to say if it was or wasn't? Guess what... it wasn't. It was just an attack.
[/quote]

Depends on what you mean, if you mean an attack within the context of the global war given the side NPO had chosen then, yes, but I just use preempt because that's what's it's called for the most part.

I don't really think preempts are immoral and the stigma with them is just a general attitude within the community against aggressive acts in general. It's rocking the boat and people don't like it. They never do.

[quote]A preemptive war is a war that is commenced in an attempt to repel or defeat a perceived offensive or invasion, or to gain a strategic advantage in an impending (allegedly unavoidable) war before that threat materializes. It is a war which preemptively 'breaks the peace'. [/quote]

Edited April 30, 2012 by Roquentin