On Civility

[Blacky]

Hime Themis I'm one of the involved parties or as you accused me of being a "prepubescent" something or other. If you would like to discuss the situation in further detail visit the MK boards and drop me a PM. Because right now to anybody who has any semblance of understanding of the situation you come off as being completely and utterly ignorant, and short of actually crossing the OOC line and explaining why I can't help you understand.

Furthermore in the future it's probably not a good idea to make a thread like this when you aren't privy to the details of the situation. Also just to adumbrate what others have already said this isn't a rogue attack, it was sanctioned by both alliances and we're just clearing up a ghost on their AA.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Blacky

[Tequila Mockingbird]

i trust the order will do what it can to serve these rogues justice

[Goldie]

We should never abandon our values because you never know when the original synthesis of those values will find them and then we will have to explain why we abandoned them in the first place.

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1327641360' post='2907950']
You posted, in an OOC forum, about how anybody taking part in acts you find offensive is clearly immature and prepubescent. Am I personally offended by this? No, I think it's funny. Primarily because your words are so hypocritical. Your way of protesting perceived OOC attacks is by making further OOC attacks, quite a vicious cycle, is it not?

Still, I can't help but feel you greatly misunderstand the situation as a whole, casting a negative light upon our feelings and reactions. I would once again urge taking this to a slightly more private area to discuss it further. I'd be happy to debate this with you via IRC, or you can post publicly in the restaurant if you still want your ~callout~ to be visible to general public.
[/quote]


[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1327641772' post='2907952']
Themis, you're a hell of a nice guy, but I've got to agree with Zoom on this one. There are those of us who feel that our sympathies were manipulated; more, there are those who feel that the actual efforts they put forth were done as a result of statements given in poor faith. They have the right to know if such is the case.
[/quote]

Gentle Persons

I understand your concerns and had any of you challenged my in private I would have been able to let you know of my own concerns. Those were expressed weeks ago to the appropriate individuals IN PRIVATE. I have posted similar concerns before and as I clearly stated this is not the first nor the last time this kind of posting will occur. I am not singling out this particular set of posts but rather the alarming trend of RL OOC attacks that is not helpful or productive to THIS world. You feel manipulated feel free to state that directly and privately to those you feel have hurt you. When YOU take it public expect those of us who disagree with this sort of attack to respond as you have in public. There is never a need for this and I do not feel that is a matter of opinion it is a matter of courtesy that we seem to ignore because we are hidden behind an electronic shield to our own identity.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Artigo]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327641800' post='2907955']
Good Artigo

You are a firm fighter and while I may not agree with your particular posting style I do believe your insult may be somewhat misplaced.

Number of Soldiers Lost in All Wars.847,267 Attacking + 2,131,414 Defending = 2,978,681 Casualties Casualty Rank:Ranked #675 of 15,130 Nations (4.46%)
These sad losses did not come about by paper cuts.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis
[/quote]

When was the last time you declared an offensive war?

[SirWilliam]

You certainly could have gone about making your point in a more construction manner (as ill-informed as it's purported to be), but to each his own.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1327641806' post='2907957']
Hime Themis I'm one of the involved parties or as you accused me of being a "prepubescent" something or other. If you would like to discuss the situation in further detail visit the MK boards and drop me a PM. Because right now to anybody who has any semblance of understanding of the situation you come off as being completely and utterly ignorant, and short of actually crossing the OOC line and explaining why I can't help you understand.

Furthermore in the future it's probably not a good idea to make a thread like this when you aren't privy to the details of the situation. Also just to adumbrate what others have already said this isn't a rogue attack, it was sanctioned by both alliances and we're just clearing up a ghost on their AA.
[/quote]

Well said.

I think it should be noted--again--that when Hoo and Kaitlyn decided to include the CN community on this issue, the issue became the community's business. There is no saying, "This is not your business!" Had they chosen to exclude the CN community from this affair, then any exploration of it would have constituted a crossing of the proverbial line; indeed, there probably would have been none. However, the community [b]was[/b] included, and now many of us are unhappy that we may have been given statements in poor faith, statements that aroused us to give our sympathies and, in some cases, actual efforts to help.

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1327642318' post='2907964']
When was the last time you declared an offensive war?
[/quote]

Only an elephant has a sharp enough memory to remember the last time the great Madam Hime Themis rode to war.

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='Blacky' timestamp='1327641806' post='2907957']
Hime Themis I'm one of the involved parties or as you accused me of being a "prepubescent" something or other. If you would like to discuss the situation in further detail visit the MK boards and drop me a PM. Because right now to anybody who has any semblance of understanding of the situation you come off as being completely and utterly ignorant, and short of actually crossing the OOC line and explaining why I can't help you understand.

Furthermore in the future it's probably not a good idea to make a thread like this when you aren't privy to the details of the situation. Also just to adumbrate what others have already said this isn't a rogue attack, it was sanctioned by both alliances and we're just clearing up a ghost on their AA.
[/quote]

Good Blacky

It is also possible I know far more than you do. It is still an OOC attack which really has no place on Digiterra. As for your ghost claim since you switched AAs twice today I find that argument for your attacks in game on one involved directly in the RL incident to be ingenious.

Do you all really wish to discuss the level of posting that embassies are subject too on the MK forums. This is simply a spillage to the normal Digiterran forums and that really has no value to Digiterra. Your own forums feel free to run as you wish but try to keep these forums at a slightly more elevated level.
I also note zero PMs to me so if you really wanted to discuss this in private you could have done so but instead you came to this thread which named no -one to defend your actions for the masses.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[uaciaut]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327641800' post='2907955']
Number of Soldiers Lost in All Wars.847,267 Attacking + 2,131,414 Defending = 2,978,681 Casualties Casualty Rank:Ranked #675 of 15,130 Nations (4.46%)
These sad losses did not come about by paper cuts.
[/quote]

It came with being rogued on so many times because staying forever in peace mode would be impossible, lol. Nice try though.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

You blame us for not messaging you?

You're the one remaining ignorant and looking like a fool.

Continue as you will.


also, lol jacapo

[Seerow]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327642276' post='2907963']
Gentle Persons

I understand your concerns and had any of you challenged my in private I would have been able to let you know of my own concerns. Those were expressed weeks ago to the appropriate individuals IN PRIVATE. I have posted similar concerns before and as I clearly stated this is not the first nor the last time this kind of posting will occur. I am not singling out this particular set of posts but rather the alarming trend of RL OOC attacks that is not helpful or productive to THIS world. You feel manipulated feel free to state that directly and privately to those you feel have hurt you. When YOU take it public expect those of us who disagree with this sort of attack to respond as you have in public. There is never a need for this and I do not feel that is a matter of opinion it is a matter of courtesy that we seem to ignore because we are hidden behind an electronic shield to our own identity.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis
[/quote]


Understand this then, Hime Themis. I agree with you in principle, that OOC and IC should be kept separate. I have no intention of letting anyone from this game intrude on my real life, but on the other hand I also do not bring my real life into this game.

In this case however, as Crymson pointed out, we have strong reason to believe we were manipulated emotionally, and something like that will garner a backlash. If you bring your real life into the game based on a lie, and get caught on it, you can surely expect consequences.

Trying to turn it around on us and lump this scenario in with other OOC incidents in the past is being disingenuous and as others have indicated, shows a lack of understanding of the situation. However if you wish to continue beating your chest publicly condemning us, go right ahead. Anyone who wishes to take the time to understand better is welcome to visit the MK forums or IRC to discuss this with us.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1327642577' post='2907970']
Well said.

I think it should be noted--again--that when Hoo and Kaitlyn decided to include the CN community on this issue, the issue became the community's business. There is no saying, "This is not your business!" Had they chosen to exclude the CN community from this affair, then any exploration of it would have constituted a crossing of the proverbial line; indeed, there probably would have been none. However, the community [b]was[/b] included, and now many of us are unhappy that we may have been given statements in poor faith, statements that aroused us to give our sympathies and, in some cases, actual efforts to help.
[/quote]

The thread being stickied gives all the credence in the world to this point. This was a CN-wide issue, with efforts made to reach as many CN-ers as possible through the sticky-thread.

If people are worried about their OOC privacy being violated, they should keep their OOC away from CN. Hoo and Kait paraded their OOC around to the point where it is practically in-character to criticize them over it. I feel no sympathy. Had they kept the entirety of their OOC lives separate from their IC personas, then I would be as outraged as anyone. But they didn't, so they get no sympathy from here.

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1327642318' post='2907964']
When was the last time you declared an offensive war?
[/quote]

Good Artigo

Sorry we tend to handle our diplomacy in a slightly different manner. Our alliance tends to defend those attacked rather than declaring a preempt. Others choose a different FA path and that is just fine. Digiterra would be all the poorer if all played the diplomatic game the same way.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1327642777' post='2907974']
It came with being rogued on so many times because staying forever in peace mode would be impossible, lol. Nice try though.
[/quote]

Good Uaciaut

I see so fighting regularly is immaterial just so long as you are the one to declare war? That is not our style sorry.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327642918' post='2907980']
Good Artigo

Sorry we tend to handle our diplomacy in a slightly different manner. Our alliance tends to defend those attacked rather than declaring a preempt. Others choose a different FA path and that is just fine. Digiterra would be all the poorer if all played the diplomatic game the same way.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis
[/quote]

The one world war you actually entered you intentionally didn't declare on nations in your range DESPITE announcing the DoW.

You're not fooling anyone.

[Jgoods45]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

That's all I got out of this post.

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1327642901' post='2907978']
Understand this then, Hime Themis. I agree with you in principle, that OOC and IC should be kept separate. I have no intention of letting anyone from this game intrude on my real life, but on the other hand I also do not bring my real life into this game.

In this case however, as Crymson pointed out, we have strong reason to believe we were manipulated emotionally, and something like that will garner a backlash. If you bring your real life into the game based on a lie, and get caught on it, you can surely expect consequences.

Trying to turn it around on us and lump this scenario in with other OOC incidents in the past is being disingenuous and as others have indicated, shows a lack of understanding of the situation. However if you wish to continue beating your chest publicly condemning us, go right ahead. Anyone who wishes to take the time to understand better is welcome to visit the MK forums or IRC to discuss this with us.
[/quote]

Goood Seerow

I understand your frustration but might I suggest you all review who posted the threads about this incident. The venom is direct at those who never actually posted on these forums or your forums about the incident. As for lumping together, no it is not disingenuous. I believe now and have posted in the past that I NEVER believe that OOC attack regardless of circumstance are warranted.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Avakael]

oooookay everyone.

Hime: you don't have all the facts. I'm sorry.

Everyone else: stop freaking out and give Hime the damn facts in private. Misinformation is not helping anyone.

After these conditions are fufilled, THEN you can all decide whether or not to have your casualties vs class fight.

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1327643188' post='2907984']
The one world war you actually entered you intentionally didn't declare on nations in your range DESPITE announcing the DoW.

You're not fooling anyone.
[/quote]

Good Zoomzoomzoom

Not exactly accuarte since we were involved in TWO world wars and there were NO nations in my nation range the last ime. Howver you are correct that we do not tend to declare war often.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Crymson]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327642681' post='2907972']
It is also possible I know far more than you do. It is still an OOC attack which really has no place on Digiterra. As for your ghost claim since you switched AAs twice today I find that argument for your attacks in game on one involved directly in the RL incident to be ingenious.
[/quote]

Kaitlyn and Van Hoo chose to involve the community in this OOC matter. As such, discussion of the issue does not, in any fashion, constitute an OOC attack.

[Blacky]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327642681' post='2907972']
Good Blacky

It is also possible I know far more than you do. It is still an OOC attack which really has no place on Digiterra. As for your ghost claim since you switched AAs twice today I find that argument for your attacks in game on one involved directly in the RL incident to be ingenious.

Do you all really wish to discuss the level of posting that embassies are subject too on the MK forums. This is simply a spillage to the normal Digiterran forums and that really has no value to Digiterra. Your own forums feel free to run as you wish but try to keep these forums at a slightly more elevated level.
I also note zero PMs to me so if you really wanted to discuss this in private you could have done so but instead you came to this thread which named no -one to defend your actions for the masses.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis
[/quote]
No. It's almost impossible for you to know "far more" than I do unless you're an involved party. You continue to bring this up, though the IC actions were explained aptly, this is not a rogue attack. Also, as far as what level of value this sort of posting has on the Digiterra forum, where it has even been posted (it may never have been save for your desire for attention and continually proving your ignorance on this situation), I don't see it.

The fact that you've been continually alluding to [i]issues[/i] to which this is not the correct venue to discuss is reason enough to warrant this topic being ended. In any case, check your inbox in a few minutes on the MK forums, where I'll send you a PM if you're interested in ending your ignorance on the situation.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1327634587' post='2907853']
Gentle Persons

I dislike the pull of posting OOC and firmly believe that we should try as much as possible to maintain our IC style. However since there once again has come to Digiterra the need for some to cross the IC/OOC line by posting deliberately insulting and abusive comment about the RL people behind a truly tough and sad situation I think it may be time to once again remind our brethren that this kind of activity along with sudden rogue attacks on a nation as part of the abusive behaviour related to the RL issue that you are far beyond what is humorous or decent. Think please before you post or act. This is not the first nor last time RL will take a bite out our fellow nation leaders. Taking the opportunity, regardless of your like or dislike IC, to make fun of, insult or attack in game simply proves that you have a great deal of growing up to do. I am subject regularly to vulgar commentary and rude messages. While it is humorous how like spoiled 5 year olds some may be I have little concern that there is any useful malice attributed and put it down to large e- member envy. When it is directed, no matter how cutely covered, at a RL person I frankly despair for the continued existence of this realm.
I would ask. please direct the venom in game and remember that no matter how long it takes you to reach puberty at some point you will learn that you too have vulnerabilities you would not wish belittled and that despite the cute poem, words have a devastating impact if they did not racist, sexist or prejudiced words would have no value to those who use them.
Use that energy in your posting to add to the realm not diminish its character. When we abuse our privilege of enjoying our time on Digiterra it diminishes us all and takes us one step closer to the end. This I please ask of you.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis
[/quote]

Dearest Dame,

When it comes to the subject of right and wrong, I shall listen first to those took the time to act in the hopes of helping those most in need of such action, not an individual who has demonstrated the same misplaced priorities as those we now criticize. Furthermore your post is dishonest, nothing more than a transparent attempt to curry favor among the public by tossing petty OOC insults at the rightfully indignant. Behind the veil of sarcasm and detachment are individuals who care mightily for the well being of others, especially children, and they were misled. They have good cause to be upset.

There have been inappropriate actions in the past day or so, no doubt, and I have personally spoken out against them in defense of the delicate IC/OOC distinction. But your own conduct is no more mature than those you now spit on and no quantity of grandiose verbiage can make pleasurable the stink of your own hypocrisy. I encourage you to retreat back to the high tower and purchase another donation.

That said, I hope that all of this blows over with haste and that we may all return to applying our fullest abilities to all that which matters, none of which is here. All are held to account, and none of our actions here will change that.

Sincerely,
Ardus Cadogan, Retired

[Hime Themis]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1327643483' post='2907991']
Kaitlyn and Van Hoo chose to involve the community in this OOC matter. As such, discussion of the issue does not, in any fashion, constitute an OOC attack.
[/quote]


Good Crymson

As I have stated please look you will note that THEY never posted a thread here on any of your forums.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1327642917' post='2907979']
The thread being stickied gives all the credence in the world to this point. This was a CN-wide issue, with efforts made to reach as many CN-ers as possible through the sticky-thread.

If people are worried about their OOC privacy being violated, they should keep their OOC away from CN. Hoo and Kait paraded their OOC around to the point where it is practically in-character to criticize them over it. I feel no sympathy. Had they kept the entirety of their OOC lives separate from their IC personas, then I would be as outraged as anyone. But they didn't, so they get no sympathy from here.
[/quote]

This right here is the only reason you could even justify the scenario. Still, kicking people out of alliances for acts committed in real life is just dumb. I'm even kind of shocked that we're not giving benefit of the doubt to long standing members of our community. Either way, I'd like if we could kill this whole issue and move the hell on. It isn't any of our business anyway.