RoK is no longer SuperFriendly

[Penkala]

[quote name='KaitlinK' timestamp='1300384906' post='2667880']
See you should probably bring dumb ass statements like this to me as opposed to Hoo. Ragnarok was not going to choose one frind over another and no matter how hard you you hold tight to that foolish belief it still wont be true.
I have a deep love for the alliances that make up SF but we are not going to tolerate ultimatums. I was pressed for an answer right this second regardless of the fact that we had repeatedly stated that we are not making any FA decisions right now. We were told that we HAD to choose one or the other and we refused to make that choice. We did not choose Polar over SF, we instead chose to leave a bloc that contained an alliance that cannot handle being told no.
[/quote]

You chose Polar over SF [i]multiple[/i] times. Remember when CSN was told to "$%&@ off" because you were busy making sure Polar wouldn't get rolled? I sure do. Listen, plenty of stuff has happened. In a bloc that's had conflicting treaties quite often, it was bound to. Please don't point blame at one alliance and act as if you hadn't done plenty of !@#$%^&* yourself. It's really quite annoying. Now you're gone and the bloc is stronger than ever. I wish you had taken my suggestion and just left it at that.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Penkala

[Monster]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1300492308' post='2669576']
Perhaps we had good reason during Karma's latter stages? It really depends on the alliance on what their opinion was on it. Not that it matters anymore.
[/quote]

Not really. It just created future problems. My theory is people who were on the Karma side didn't hold on to it because rolling TOP was an important goal after.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1300500797' post='2669714']
This is possibly the stupidest thing you've ever typed. You have no idea if they chose polar over SF? Well lets see, what side of the war did they enter? They decided to support Polar spying while siding against their own bloc in a war and then left the bloc before the war was over. Gee I wonder which they valued more.[/quote]

They know if they chose Polar over SF. Not me, not you, not anyone else. They defended an ally who was directly attacked. That isn't "choosing" anything, that is simply defending an ally.*

As far as I know, RoK hasn't made any FA decisions aside from this one. Should they decide to drop Polar, I will await your personal apology.

[quote]I think I was out of gov at by the time you resigned, but If I wasn't, feel free to take this as my official position.

Rok is/was !@#$@#$ retarded. You have/had your collective heads so far up Polar's ass if you spit it comes out their mouth. If you'd ever asked me about my opinion on you resigning after BiPolar I'd have questioned your sanity.[/quote]

If I had valued Polar over SF, I would simply say so. Again, I led the alliance at the time and know full well what we did and why. You are a disgruntled member of VE who has [b]no idea[/b] why we did the things we did and are only speculating. You are spouting opinions, and I am countering with facts. The SF bloc was more important than the Polar treaty during my reign as Emperor. SF knew that and so did Polar.

[quote]The two bits you bolded don't address my arguments at all, in fact one of them makes mine for me. They attacked a SuperFriend. More than once in their history, GOD and BiPolar were no means isolated incidents.

So once again I say; While Polar has a long history of shooting AT SuperFriends they've never once sided with SuperFriends on the field of battle. This is rather telling of how they view the relationship in my opinion no matter what sweet words their diplomats whisper in your ear.[/quote]

The statement in bold actually decimated everything you said and everything that you continue to say. Had I valued Polar over SF, I wouldn't have canceled on them when they attacked GOD. Had I valued Polar more than SF, I wouldn't have bothered to speak with anyone else before we re-signed with them.

Again, and this is important, every alliance we spoke with was perfectly fine with re-signing that treaty. They looked at RoK signing with Polar as a boon to our power sphere and good strategy. Once again, we were actually encouraged to do so at the time.

I understand that you're mad at RoK and you have every right to be. They screwed VE and SF over completely. When they gave you the impression that they were staying out, they should have done so instead of up and declaring, I'd be pretty pissed at them as well if I were you. However, that doesn't mean that you need to go back in time and start !@#$ting on a long time friendship by re-writing history and painting previous reigns in a bad light ... especially in regard to leadership who always viewed VE as a near and dear friend.


*Though I do maintain that they should not have defended said ally after implying that they would not do so. Given what I have read, RoK should not have been involved in this war at all.

[Penkala]

[quote]However, that doesn't mean that you need to go back in time and start !@#$ting on a long time friendship by re-writing history and painting previous reigns in a bad light ... especially in regard to leadership who always viewed VE as a near and dear friend.
[/quote]

Kait's already started pointing fingers, so it's a bit late for that. *shrug*

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300501512' post='2669724']
Not really. It just created future problems. My theory is people who were on the Karma side didn't hold on to it because rolling TOP was an important goal after.
[/quote]
meh. It doesn't matter at this point

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300503658' post='2669759']
Kait's already started pointing fingers, so it's a bit late for that. *shrug*
[/quote]


Then stay in the present and point back. I'll be damned if anyone is going to try and tell me why we did anything or where our loyalties were.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1300503870' post='2669763']
Then stay in the present and point back. I'll be damned if anyone is going to try and tell me why we did anything or where our loyalties were.
[/quote]

RoK made it quite clear where their loyalties were, to be quite honest. Like I said: This isn't the first time RoK chose Polar over SF. *shrug*

Besides, my point is: There's no need to burn the bridges. But if that's RoK wants to do, then by all means, consider it done.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Penkala

[Xiphosis]

[quote]Furthermore, the bloc (as well as VE) were consulted before re-signing and could have blocked the treaty before it was signed[/quote]

It's true, but [and this became a significant problem after you stepped down] circumstances change and that was used against us in the arguments that followed. "But you approved it!" Yeah? Well that was a year or more ago, and I approved it [i]on condition of x y and z[/i] which the generation that stepped up in your absence seemed to conveniently forget.

[quote]As far as I know, RoK hasn't made any FA decisions aside from this one.[/quote]

They have. This was one of the reasons for the argument that led to their leaving.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1300504342' post='2669768']
It's true, but [and this became a significant problem after you stepped down] circumstances change and that was used against us in the arguments that followed. "But you approved it!" Yeah? Well that was a year or more ago, and I approved it [i]on condition of x y and z[/i] which the generation that stepped up in your absence seemed to conveniently forget.[/quote]

That is all fine and good and I understand what you're saying, Xiph. My issue is with Typo and Penkala insinuating that [b]I[/b] held the Polar treaty above the SF bloc and that that has always been the case.

[Xiphosis]

Yeah, I hear you. It's just hard feelings, and it'll fade.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1300504518' post='2669771']
That is all fine and good and I understand what you're saying, Xiph. My issue is with Typo and Penkala insinuating that [b]I[/b] held the Polar treaty above the SF bloc and that that has always been the case.
[/quote]

No, you didn't. The people after you did.

[quote]Yeah, I hear you. It's just hard feelings, and it'll fade. [/quote]

No hard feelings. I like Hoo and don't blame him for anything that's happened. RoK, though.. well, it's just hard to believe that I'll be getting over what they've done. And for me to say that... given how much I used to like RoK, well... that says enough about their actions as of recently.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Penkala

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300504877' post='2669775']
No, you didn't. The people after you did.
[/quote]

Then why on earth are you arguing with me?

[Penkala]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1300504984' post='2669777']
Then why on earth are you arguing with me?
[/quote]

I guess I'm not.

[EViL0nE]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1300484780' post='2669396']
Wait, wait, [b]wait[/b]. Are you saying that [b]I[/b] chose Polar over SF?

For starters, the treaty was dropped during Bi-Polar and not after. They chose to hit a SuperFriend when they didn't have to. That isn't acceptable and they were therefore dropped without hesitation.

Despite their actions, we did remain friends and eventually a treaty was discussed. We went to VE, \m/, and GOD before making a decision and not only were all three fine with it, some of those alliances actually encouraged it. The new Polar leadership was one we trusted and the treaty signing was considered "strategically sound".

You are free to your opinions in regard to recent history, but don't sit here and complain about a treaty that [b]no one[/b] had a problem with when it was signed. There was no resistance. Zero. We gave veto power to our allies over this treaty and no one felt strongly enough against it to do so.

Care to explain how we "have a history" of choosing Polar over SF now? Do you have an real examples?

I eagerly await your response.
[/quote]
There were two different statements in my orignal post, so I'll give you that maybe it should have been made more clear.
My first argument is with you saying Polar suffered anything from RoK for attacking an SF alliance. They didn't. Not having a treaty when idle isn't really losing anything if the next time a treaty would be needed, it's there. I don't care if GOD/m/VE all said go ahead and do it, it doesn't change that you saying Polar suffered anything for their actions is silly.
My second statement was that it doesn't matter if RoK chose Polar over SF or not. It's done and RoK will move into their currently desired sphere and we will continue our path.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1300508061' post='2669820']
My second statement was that it doesn't matter if RoK chose Polar over SF or not. It's done and RoK will move into their currently desired sphere and we will continue our path.
[/quote]

With respect, right now you dont know what Ragnarok will or will not be doing. As had been said by our last delegate, we were waiting for the war to end before we made any calls regarding FA. At this time, i am sure the government of Ragnarok is in the process of doing exactly that. I just hope that when such calls do get made, both you and i are not going "well.. thats... yeah.. what?"

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300415898' post='2668641']
reading this thread. it has been said over and over by both sides. that is how i would know this. just read Kaitlin's post.
[/quote]
I get all my best facts from the OWF too! I heard those jerk VEers vetoed MK out of Pandora's Box.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1300511831' post='2669878']
With respect, right now you dont know what Ragnarok will or will not be doing. As had been said by our last delegate, we were waiting for the war to end before we made any calls regarding FA. At this time, i am sure the government of Ragnarok is in the process of doing exactly that. I just hope that when such calls do get made, both you and i are not going "well.. thats... yeah.. what?"
[/quote]

I mean, I'm pretty sure the only group of people that [i]want you[/i] at this point are those people in the "desired sphere" he was talking about. You and Polar are a match made in heaven. Enjoy your new friends.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Penkala

[EViL0nE]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1300511831' post='2669878']
With respect, right now you dont know what Ragnarok will or will not be doing. As had been said by our last delegate, we were waiting for the war to end before we made any calls regarding FA. At this time, i am sure the government of Ragnarok is in the process of doing exactly that. I just hope that when such calls do get made, both you and i are not going "well.. thats... yeah.. what?"
[/quote]
Well, unless Kait's goal was to troll her way into an excuse to leave SF, she mentioned multiple alliances she wants to treaty in the conversations that lead to her leaving. Those alliances pretty much cement the FA direction of RoK.

[Valtamdraugr]

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1300546829' post='2670195']
Those alliances pretty much cement the FA direction of RoK.
[/quote]
Nothing is written in stone.

Rest assured though... we will do our best to preserve our precious pixels in any case.

p.s. It's all Hoo's fault, anyway.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Valtamdraugr' timestamp='1300555307' post='2670275']
p.s. It's all Hoo's fault, anyway.
[/quote]
This man speaks the truth. Blame everything on Hoo.

[King Wally]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1300545205' post='2670185']
I mean, I'm pretty sure the only group of people that [i]want you[/i] at this point are those people in the "desired sphere" he was talking about. You and Polar are a match made in heaven. Enjoy your new friends.
[/quote]

lol... I'm glad you are so over this Penkala maybe we should let you announce the results of our post war treaty review so you can add in a conveniant "i told you so" at the bottom.

[Darth Sexy]

All the mindless conjecture about how SF is 'done' is most amusing. The SuperFriends have seen many blocs rise and fall, yet they remain. I feel SF knows a thing or two about bloc 'success'.

Fashionably late to this party, but I would like to wish Ragnarok the best. Although our paths appear to differ, I recall many good times. These should not be ignored.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1300493575' post='2669592']
RoK didn't choose Polar over SF in this war. VE decided to declare war on NpO. Under the circumstances, RoK had to defend NpO. If the roles had been reversed and NpO had used a similar CB to declare on VE, we would have defended VE.
[/quote]
This, combined with Typo's post just after talking about Bipolar, is rather interesting. You see, in Bipolar, Polar declared on a direct Ragnarok ally with a weaker CB than we had this war ('community standards' and \m/ baiting them into it), and did you activate the MDP? No. And then Polar also attacked GOD later in the war. Did you activate the MDP? No.

So in fact we see that when given pretty much the same decision to make, when it would have involved fighting your friends Polar you stay neutral*, but when you can jump into bed with them, you do so.

(*: Yes, I'm aware that later in Bipolar you did jump in, but that was after Polar had peaced out of the main war and in fact it may well be after they switched sides entirely.)

[Penguin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300637342' post='2671110']
This, combined with Typo's post just after talking about Bipolar, is rather interesting. You see, in Bipolar, Polar declared on a direct Ragnarok ally with a weaker CB than we had this war ('community standards' and \m/ baiting them into it), and did you activate the MDP? No. And then Polar also attacked GOD later in the war. Did you activate the MDP? No.

So in fact we see that when given pretty much the same decision to make, when it would have involved fighting your friends Polar you stay neutral*, but when you can jump into bed with them, you do so.

(*: Yes, I'm aware that later in Bipolar you did jump in, but that was after Polar had peaced out of the main war and in fact it may well be after they switched sides entirely.)
[/quote]
Actually, Ragnarok joined in on the other side about 24 hours after we attacked GOD. They didn't attack Polaris directly, just like they didn't attack VE directly in this war. They even beat VE in by an hour or so.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Penguin

[Bob Janova]

Ah I had forgetten about the NEW front. But the point still remains that they didn't engage in the main front, and it's quite likely that they believed the 'it's a separate war' line that C&G were claiming about the pre-empt and didn't consider it to be fighting against you. (They didn't come in in defence of GOD, they chained in on a completely different front.)

So, um, technically wrong, but I think the essence of the point is still good