A Dark Templar Announcement

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297878831' post='2635763']
TIO is (partly?) at peace now...

White peace.

Care to explain what other terms there were offered then? As far as I can see no one had any intention of offering terms other then white peace as long as the war didn't expand.
[/quote]

ahhh so, basically since LoSS stated it would not leave until TIO got peace (which i don't know your sources but from what i heard, there was no offer to TIO when LoSS refused the peace offer from CSN), CSN wanted to continue with their opportunistic attack on LoSS without any chance of anyone else helping LoSS out.

heh. so it seems that CSN is simply pissed off that their own opportunistic attack on LoSS ended up with them losing more than they gained and that is why they want reps from DT. thanks for clearing that up.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1297854705' post='2635540']
The crux of the matter, whether or not it makes sense for DT to declare this late, is that LoSS [i]requested[/i] help, which is why DT entered. DT did not enter cos they had an issue against Legacy or CSN. Pinning DT down with exorbitant reps does not justify anything nor does it make any sense.
[/quote]


That's the great part about a request, you can turn it down if its a bad idea.

[quote name='The Great One' timestamp='1297860515' post='2635570']
When at war if you offer terms, no matter if there is a chance of them being accepted the only thing that matters is you have offered terms. Now the defending alliance cannot call in allies without being opportunisitc bandwagoners. So from now on the moment war is declared everyone should offer peace terms and the other side cannot bring in allies anymore!

Come up with something new. At the moment what you are arguing is so idiotic I don't understand how even you guys can try to argue it.
[/quote]

Oh yea, no chance white peace would be accepted, the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE term it is. If LoSS didn't want white peace that's seriously their problem not anybody elses.

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1297861446' post='2635577']
Aren't you in GOD, not CSN?
[/quote]

Shocking! Members of a bloc consult each other on major decisions! What is the world coming to?

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Supa_Troop3r' timestamp='1297869071' post='2635657']
Why do you people keep saying LoSS had a standing offer of white peace. They declinded white peace until all of their allies left their fronts.Goose has even stated on these forums that LoSS didn't have a white peace offer. Do we have to post logs to prove everything?
[/quote]

Because it's much easier to argue against a strawman than it is to argue against reality.

[Wu Tang Clan]

If I read right, both govt members of LoSS and CSN have established that white peace was NOT offered, and there were some terms involved. I'd go back and quote, but I really don't want to.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1297874737' post='2635718']
After reading enough to feel that I understand the current situation, here are my two cents on the issue. DT was being opportunistic when deciding to attack Legacy, for better or worse that was a strategic move. DT did use an optional defense clause to enter into the conflict, for better or worse that is kind of the point of the treaty, they have the option (and to be honest ODP's shouldn't be looked at so negatively, if more alliances signed these than MDP's we would not see so many people ignoring obligations to allies). CSN is being completely unreasonable, alright I'll give you that Legacy is a protectorate of theirs, and I'll give you that they want to defend their protectorates interest, however if the tech was destine for Legacy this would be a completely different issue, the fact as I understand it is, CSN wants 40K tech for themselves. CSN doesn't really have any basis for imposing reps other than simply because they want to, which is their right. This issue boils down to a battle of wills, DT's against CSN's. Its just to bad that DT's allies not involved in this conflict are not willing to defend DT.
[/quote]
I think you need to read even more of this thread before posting your comments. DT being opportunistic

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297876725' post='2635748']
To be honest I think it was LoSS who were being unreasonable at first, but it seems DT will be held accountable for choosing to go along with it.
[/quote]
[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297881212' post='2635776']
That's the great part about a request, you can turn it down if its a bad idea.
[/quote]
I dont see how it a bad idea unless DT was fully informed of the LoSS-TIO situation and the impending peace talks/offer. However you spin it, laying any blame on DT for assisting allies is stupid.

[sammykhalifa]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1297881512' post='2635780']
If I read right, both govt members of LoSS and CSN have established that white peace was NOT offered, and there were some terms involved. I'd go back and quote, but I really don't want to.
[/quote]

Perhaps, but it seems pretty clear that peace would not be far off. From a LoSS perspective, at least to an outsider, expanding and complicating the war by calling in an ally (if that's what happened) seems to not be in their best interest.

But anyhow, I promised myself that I wouldn't get into all of this but oh well.

[Coloradia]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297881212' post='2635776']
Oh yea, no chance white peace would be accepted, the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE term it is. If LoSS didn't want white peace that's seriously their problem not anybody elses.
[/quote]
LoSS said they weren't leaving while their ally was still in the fight. Therefore white peace or OVER 9,000 tech, terms didn't matter, LoSS was staying in it. So what were you saying again?

/me pats TypoNinja on the head. Come again when you're actually ready.

[raasaa]

[quote name='sammykhalifa' timestamp='1297881870' post='2635784']
Perhaps, but it seems pretty clear that peace would not be far off. From a LoSS perspective, at least to an outsider, expanding and complicating the war by calling in an ally (if that's what happened) seems to not be in their best interest.
[/quote]
So, based on what you just said.....why is DT being punished for something LoSS did/didnt do ???

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='sammykhalifa' timestamp='1297881870' post='2635784']
Perhaps, but it seems pretty clear that peace would not be far off. From a LoSS perspective, at least to an outsider, expanding and complicating the war by calling in an ally (if that's what happened) seems to not be in their best interest.

But anyhow, I promised myself that I wouldn't get into all of this but oh well.
[/quote]

Again, where is this proof that LoSS or even TIO knew peace for TIO would be a week away? I would wager a bet that if LoSS knew that TIO was going to achieve white peace a week later, they would not have asked DT to come in. So i am guessing that no one had any actual definitive timeframe as to when TIO was going to achieve peace, least of all LoSS. This means that peace for TIO could have been a week later or a month later for all anyone, at the time DT was asked to help, knew.

It appears the new argument against DT is that peace for TIO was known ahead of time and therefore DT was never needed. Again, i am going to wager that this is yet another fallacy on the part of those defending CSN as most of the time, peace is only known a day ahead of time at most. which means knowing a full week ahead of the peace is damn near impossible.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='HeRo1' timestamp='1297836836' post='2635344']
I bet everyone knows who would win the worst PR move of the year..

/me points to CSN
[/quote]
I be everyone knows who would win worst military coordination of the year...

/me points to LoSS

and yes that means worse than THL and TGE.

[Co God Ben]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1297882199' post='2635791']
Again, where is this proof that LoSS or even TIO knew peace for TIO would be a week away? [b]I would wager a bet that if LoSS knew that TIO was going to achieve white peace a week later, they would not have asked DT to come in[/b]. So i am guessing that no one had any actual definitive timeframe as to when TIO was going to achieve peace, least of all LoSS. This means that peace for TIO could have been a week later or a month later for all anyone, at the time DT was asked to help, knew.

It appears the new argument against DT is that peace for TIO was known ahead of time and therefore DT was never needed. Again, i am going to wager that this is yet another fallacy on the part of those defending CSN as most of the time, peace is only known a day ahead of time at most. which means knowing a full week ahead of the peace is damn near impossible.
[/quote]
This man speaks the truth.


CSN offered LoSS peace when LOSS wasn't leaving until TIO was out. It's very simple. We weren't looking to leave. We wanted some help with Legacy, which DT provided. About a week later, TIO left, right before which iirc CSN demanded these extortionary terms. This is why LOSS is still in this war. We're just waiting on CSN to agree to white peace. They indicated they will eliminate the terms eventually, so I guess it's just waiting on when they're ready.

[Sam Winters]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1297883050' post='2635804']
I be everyone knows who would win worst military coordination of the year...

/me points to LoSS

and yes that means worse than THL and TGE.
[/quote]

Pray tell, what are you basing that on? besides us being on different sides of a war caused by CSN?

By the way, how is Peace Mode after 1 week of war?

I count 105 nations in Legacy, but only see 26 outgoing attacks on LOSS. Awesome.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Sam Winters

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Sam Winters' timestamp='1297883545' post='2635809']
Pray tell, what are you basing that on? besides us being on different sides of a war caused by CSN?
[/quote]
Um...the war? If you havent read the thread yet, DT wants out because LoSS is so bad, not because they are tired of war, not because they are losing NS, because LoSS has been nothing short of awful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion however and if you think youve done fine or the odds are the cause for this, I respect your thoughts.

[Sam Winters]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1297883736' post='2635811']
Um...the war? If you havent read the thread yet, DT wants out because LoSS is so bad, not because they are tired of war, not because they are losing NS, because LoSS has been nothing short of awful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion however and if you think youve done fine or the odds are the cause for this, I respect your thoughts.
[/quote]

I've spoken to Titan. I know his reasoning.

Still doesn't change the fact that we have twice the outgoing wars compared to incoming from the 4 alliances that declared on us. Why don't you tell me how many wars there are between LOSS and Legacy? I can - the highest out of all of your allies. The least? The Brain. The least for their size? CSN. 14 attacks from CSN. There are almost double that from Legacy and the same from RnR who have nations boycotting the front.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Sam Winters' timestamp='1297884153' post='2635817']
I've spoken to Titan. I know his reasoning.

Still doesn't change the fact that we have twice the outgoing wars compared to incoming from the 4 alliances that declared on us. Why don't you tell me how many wars there are between LOSS and Legacy? I can - the highest out of all of your allies. The least? The Brain. The least for their size? CSN. 14 attacks from CSN. There are almost double that from Legacy and the same from RnR who have nations boycotting the front.
[/quote]

Well it's not exactly easy to get wars on you. You have hordes of lil nations and we have very few

[Alekhine]

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1297873947' post='2635710']
I'm confused. If there was no offer of white peace what did they decline, exactly?
[/quote]


[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297878831' post='2635763']
TIO is (partly?) at peace now...

White peace.

Care to explain what other terms there were offered then? As far as I can see no one had any intention of offering terms other then white peace as long as the war didn't expand.
[/quote]

The terms we were offered included some apology haikus and some other nonsense from The Brain. I don't think we would have accepted those terms even if we were considering leaving the war without TIO, which we weren't seriously considering.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1297880606' post='2635771']
I keep seeing this. Why does that matter? [...]
[/quote]
As far as I can tell it only serves as a point to reinforce the argument that it was an opportunistic attack.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1297880677' post='2635773'][...]
[/quote]
I seriously have no clue why CSN wants reps. I don't have access to that kind of stuff these days, I'm simply commenting on what I can see.

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1297881862' post='2635783']
I dont see how it a bad idea unless DT was fully informed of the LoSS-TIO situation and the impending peace talks/offer. However you spin it, laying any blame on DT for assisting allies is stupid.
[/quote]
The one thing I'm saying is that if there was a white peace offer for TIO and LoSS at that point in time, it was a stupid decision to voluntarily join in this war. That's about the extent to which I believe DT can be 'blamed' here.

And if they joined without communicating with LoSS, then what does this say about them being 'allies' here? Isn't it logical for allies to talk to each other and jointly decide on which path to take?

[quote name='Alekhine' timestamp='1297884386' post='2635820']
The terms we were offered included some apology haikus and some other nonsense from The Brain. I don't think we would have accepted those terms even if we were considering leaving the war without TIO, which we weren't seriously considering.
[/quote]
Well alright, but that means no reps, which was what people hinted at.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Tromp

[Sam Winters]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1297884345' post='2635819']
Well it's not exactly easy to get wars on you. You have hordes of lil nations and we have very few
[/quote]


Funny, I see most of your AA as in range of a lot of our nations. You could attack today! (Well, not you in PM for the last 2 or so weeks, but you get my point). There's at least 20 or so Legacy nations in my range. And I have 3 defensive slots...

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297853085' post='2635533']
Considering the alliance in question here(dark templar)and another alliance you have as an ally have declared without treaties or supported doing so in the past, this doesn't hold water. Funny thing is, the issue comes full circle as Sparta only declared without treaties because Legacy refused to declare(defensively, said oA before, corrected) to help their ally wF because they were afraid of being countered fundamentally, and then they got countered by an NV ally anyway. Isn't that great? I thought it was funny, but I think it's in Dark Templar's interests not to overreach here and go with their original counteroffer instead of taking it off the table. I think overreaching in these cases will lead to the other side putting its back up. From the first page, you can see people saying "hey members of CSN, we know you disapprove of your gov's actions, rise up and revolt," and that usually has the opposite reaction. Even if the entirety of CSN's membership(or any alliance, really) disagreed with what the gov was doing, external forces attempting to subvert internal processes or influence them would only make them side with the government over the external forces in most cases.

It didn't really make sense for DT to declare in support of LoSS this late in the war, however.
[/quote]

One could say Legacy's cowardice had a Karma style payment.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297884557' post='2635821']
The one thing I'm saying is that if there was a white peace offer for TIO and LoSS at that point in time, it was a stupid decision to voluntarily join in this war. That's about the extent to which I believe DT can be 'blamed' here.

And if they joined without communicating with LoSS, then what does this say about them being 'allies' here? Isn't it logical for allies to talk to each other and jointly decide on which path to take?


Well alright, but that means no reps, which was what people hinted at.
[/quote]
Someone from LoSS just cleared that up....stating LoSS had no idea TIO was getting peace within a week. If they had known, they would not have asked DT to help them with Legacy.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Sam Winters' timestamp='1297884723' post='2635823']
Funny, I see most of your AA as in range of a lot of our nations. You could attack today! (Well, not you in PM for the last 2 or so weeks, but you get my point). There's at least 20 or so Legacy nations in my range. And I have 3 defensive slots...
[/quote]
Sorry, we've yet to look at anyone under 20k NS, our game revolves around 50-20k nations.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297881212' post='2635776']
Oh yea, no chance white peace would be accepted, the HORRIBLE HORRIBLE term it is. If LoSS didn't want white peace that's seriously their problem not anybody elses.
[/quote]
To my knowledge, TIO did not exit until DT was in. Once TIO exited, several days later, we approached CSN and Legacy for peace.
I'm not 100% on the dates though.

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1297883050' post='2635804']
I be everyone knows who would win worst military coordination of the year...

/me points to LoSS

and yes that means worse than THL and TGE.
[/quote]
Sarm, you're better than this petty crap.

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1297883736' post='2635811']
Um...the war? If you havent read the thread yet, DT wants out because LoSS is so bad, not because they are tired of war, not because they are losing NS, because LoSS has been nothing short of awful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion however and if you think youve done fine or the odds are the cause for this, I respect your thoughts.
[/quote]
Just because Titan said that he was frustrated with LoSS' initial coordination with us does not mean that is why we wanted to exit the war. We wanted to exit because the chain that brought us there was severed. And I am proud to say that the coordination has improved

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297884557' post='2635821']
As far as I can tell it only serves as a point to reinforce the argument that it was an opportunistic attack.
[/quote]
In a war, you generally attack those who give you the highest opportunity for success.

[Sam Winters]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1297884834' post='2635826']
Sorry, we've yet to look at anyone under 20k NS, our game revolves around 50-20k nations.
[/quote]

Oh, my bad. Didn't realize that half your alliance is useless.

Never mind then.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297884920' post='2635827']
Sarm, you're better than this petty crap.
[/quote]
I am and I realize that, but I find it hard to watch LoSS talk !@#$ at all when they have been gutted pretty bad. Anyone that knows me I'm sure will understand my reasoning and give me a pass.

[AuiNur]

Can we get an official csn response on some of this?