Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[HellAngel]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297107188' post='2624352']
We both know that TOP interest to back us in bi-polar has nothing to do with you supporting our ideals, but with the fact that you wanted to destroy CnG. So do both of us a favor and cut the crap.
[/quote]

You sir, have no idea. Can you remember all those TOP nations joining Polaris before our intervention? Yeah they symathized with you. That gives you a hint what we entered for, but of course, because it suits your politcal agenda, you are now going to spew that point over and over again, although you perfectly well know that it's untrue.

I cant blame you though, if i was you i would take every chance i could get to take a stab at TOP. Because we will be coming for you, and its not gonna get pretty, mylady.

[Crymson]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297106010' post='2624316']
We keep our self-respect, you sold yourselves to kiss the feet of those in power. Who won?

I pity you if the only meaning of success for your is be a puppet in some curbstomp, I'm more than happy of be in Polaris right now, the amount of enemies we made just shows that we stood for something. Pixels come and go, but self-respect is like virginity, once you lost it is impossible to get it back.
[/quote]

Keep reaching, D34th. Maybe someday you'll be tall enough to ride that rollercoaster. But not today.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Crymson

[uaciaut]

Let the world laugh i say.

[Timberland]

[quote name='kencojenko' timestamp='1297106539' post='2624334']
I find it hilarious that we're now seen as MK lapdogs.

It's much more of a 'You scratch my back, i'll scratch yours' situation. They want our help beating someone they hate, i'm sure they'll be glad to return the favor down the line...

Also, i'm infatuated with Archon's shiny behind.
[/quote]

Archon does have a nice apple bottom

[Volgan]

TOP on the same side as the ODN.

The world turned upside down. I'm afraid! am I about to wake up from even crappier form of the matrix?

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='Richard Rahl' timestamp='1297104373' post='2624288']
If coming in on an MDP equals following someone else, then hasn't every alliance, including your own, that has come in on an MDP "followed someone else?"
[/quote]
I didn’t raise any objection, not that I could even if I had any, concerning this war. My initial post contained something like “An expected declaration and decision.”. My remark was along the lines, that TOP had some opportunities to become a healthy power pole in CN politics, but for some reason they skipped most of them following alliances like Gre, FOK, even NPO. Concerning the current situation, I believe that siding with MK was a logical move and they are not yet ready to claim their position, hence my remark “we will see”.

I have to add, since you stated something about an MDP, that when you declare following someone that has started an aggressive war there is no way to present it as a Defensive move, so please let’s stop the MDP propaganda . Does it matters? No, is it a technicality? Yes, should people stop bending the truth so obviously? Yes please…it will make the OWF a better place.
[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297102162' post='2624214']
It's not our fault that your government chooses to keep its membership very uninformed.
[/quote]
I don’t say that your stance towards Pacifica is unjustified, after all people perceive differently the same incidences, so you can never be sure what someone think is reality, and this may be applied both ways[i]([OOC] Kurosawa’s Rashomon present this concept in a brilliant way[OOC]). [/i]What I say is that it is an exaggeration and a bit rude to state that we threw you under the bus in the Karma war, since you got out of the war unaffected, while we had to survive several months of war and some heavy reparations. The analogy is Polaris stating that you threw them under the bus in the BiPolar war, or maybe FOK stating it.

Also I hope Bodvar Jarl will start posting more.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Balkan Banania' timestamp='1297108836' post='2624390']
I don’t say that your stance towards Pacifica is unjustified, after all people perceive differently the same incidences, so you can never be sure what someone think is reality, and this may be applied both ways[i]([OOC] Kurosawa’s Rashomon present this concept in a brilliant way[OOC]). [/i]What I say is that it is an exaggeration and a bit rude to state that we threw you under the bus in the Karma war, since you got out of the war unaffected, while we had to survive several months of war and some heavy reparations. The analogy is Polaris stating that you threw them under the bus in the BiPolar war, or maybe FOK stating it.
[/quote]

I've never seen anyone in TOP accuse you of "throwing us under the bus." If anyone said it, I imagine it was in the sense of you putting us in a horrible position, with treaties on both sides, in the interests of declaring war over a tiny issue that could have easily been stepped away from.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1297100202' post='2624183']
(Psst, it was ML who attacked us first)
[/quote]

Kinda like how TPF attacked you first too, by hitting your MDoAP partner, after you hit their MADP partner, which by your [i]logic[/i] was not an attack on them?

If you want to go by that logic of "an attack on my allies is an attack on me", or some variation of such, by hitting NPO, you (and GOONS) hit TPF, and by launching attacks against them when they did not enter a state of war against you, ML can't consider that an attack against them?

I wish that you'd think these things through a little more.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297103671' post='2624269']
I suppose if you're unable or unwilling to participate in semi-intelligent discourse (where you make some effort at making sense and backing up what you say instead of just posting whatever comes to mind), then sure.

/me shrugs.
[/quote]

Perhaps it is that you and I have different meanings of what constitutes "semi-intelligent discourse". Or perhaps I've got no interest in listening to what you might have to say about it, however if thats what you want, I'll take the time to make my thoughts clear.

I have not read the entirety of this thread, nor do I have any desire to do so at any time in the future. I fully expected TOP to enter, I expected nothing less from the onset of this war. I really don't think this move surprised anybody.

I do not challenge the logic of their entry, although I do find it funny how TOP chose not to, as your leader put it, "slaughter" one of the "NPO vassal states/meatsheilds" as was promised in the GOONS recognition of hositility. I suppose that proved to be an empty threat.

While I see no fault in the manner in which TOP has entered this war, I hold a strong dislike for them, Crymson would probably tell me that I look for every possible reason to dislike them while looking for every excuse to ignore the offenses of the opposition, but frankly, Crymson's theories have not provoked any change in my philosophy in the past nor have they been cause for me to re-evaluate my stance, so when that statement from him does come, I'll be sure to ignore it.

My grievance with TOP is that they are opportunistic and that they have loyalty to nothing but victory. This is an alliance that rode along with NPO throughout the history of the Initiative and the Continuum, conveniently backed out of Q mere days before the Karma war began, and proceeded to enter on the winning side of that war via an optional treaty. This is an alliance that attempted to seize power by pre-empting the C&G bloc, and when that failed, fell into the old "if you can't beat them, join them" style of play and became best buddies with MK. Aside from the failed TOP-CnG war effort, TOP has been a tag along for their entire existence.

TOP does not innovate power, they do not build power, they attach themselves to it and ride as long as they feel that it is convenient to do so. Crymson's comments paint a very clear picture to me.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297105194' post='2624304']
We're back in a good position with solid allies and a good bit of military power, and your alliance is stomped-upon pariah. Who won?
[/quote]

I would assume that Crymson does not appreciate the glory of the battle, only the glory of the victory. I've been around this world for over four and a half years now, and perhaps I'm a bad luck charm, but at no point have I been on the winning side of an alliance war. I do not know the glory of victory, but I know he glory of battle very well, and I fight and die beside those that I love, and I'm fine with that. TOP on the other hand, loves only victory, and they'll be your friend as long as you are able to give it to them. Once your time in the spotlight is up, history would tell us that more likely then not, they'll be moving on to those who take control after your on your way down.

And you know, history has a weird way of repeating itself.

[Simon De Montfort]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297107188' post='2624352']
We both know that TOP interest to back us in bi-polar has nothing to do with you supporting our ideals, but with the fact that you wanted to destroy CnG. So do both of us a favor and cut the crap.
[/quote]
Wow just wow. You have no clue what you're talking about. Several people in TOP, myself included, supported Polar's cause in that war and pushed for TOP to intervene on the side of Polar. Chal and others even left TOP to join Polar because they supported your side. The difference between TOP and Polar was that we were willing to leave our past behind but you guys couldn't.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1297109157' post='2624399']

And you know, history has a weird way of repeating itself.
[/quote]
Kinda like how NpO got rolled 2 years ago and now they're getting rolled again?

[HellAngel]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1297109157' post='2624399']

My grievance with TOP is that they are opportunistic and that they have loyalty to nothing but victory. This is an alliance that rode along with NPO throughout the history of the Initiative and the Continuum, conveniently backed out of Q mere days before the Karma war began, and proceeded to enter on the winning side of that war via an optional treaty. This is an alliance that attempted to seize power by pre-empting the C&G bloc, and when that failed, fell into the old "if you can't beat them, join them" style of play and became best buddies with MK. Aside from the failed TOP-CnG war effort, TOP has been a tag along for their entire existence.

[/quote]

There was NPO and IRON on one side of the war and whole Citadel plus allies on the other. Thats not an easy decision to make and i find it ridiculous to hold a grudge over it, but you are of course, free to do so.

Im not gonna go into the MK thing again, go back and read my post earlier. We can go back and forth about what you think TOP did there for years, we are not gonna change each others opinion.

Edited February 7, 2011 by HellAngel

[ROMMELHSQ]

I have realized from NpO that the biggest winner in this game was GGA!!!

[Richard Rahl]

[quote name='Balkan Banania' timestamp='1297108836' post='2624390']
I didn’t raise any objection, not that I could even if I had any, concerning this war. My initial post contained something like “An expected declaration and decision.”. My remark was along the lines, that TOP had some opportunities to become a healthy power pole in CN politics, but for some reason they skipped most of them following alliances like Gre, FOK, even NPO. Concerning the current situation, I believe that siding with MK was a logical move and they are not yet ready to claim their position, hence my remark “we will see”.[/quote]

Fair enough, although I contend that TOP never followed FOK anywhere. And if people want to think that we blindly follow MK and have no political power, well that's fine by me. Having enemies, or potential enemies, underestimate you is always for the best.

[quote]
I have to add, since you stated something about an MDP, that when you declare following someone that has started an aggressive war there is no way to present it as a Defensive move, so please let’s stop the MDP propaganda . Does it matters? No, is it a technicality? Yes, should people stop bending the truth so obviously? Yes please…it will make the OWF a better place.[/quote]

Was MK the aggressor against NPO? Of course. I don't think any TOPper is denying that. But if someone attacks our ally, regardless of why, and we come to help them, that is defense. There's no other way to look at that. BTW this is something that nearly every alliance that has fought a war, especially the NPO, has said before. If this action is not considered defense, then why do MDPs even exist?

NPO beat down MK long ago, MK beats down NPO now. So are you saying that since NPO started it before, MK is thus defending themselves because NPO was the original aggressor? How long does that original aggression last and when does a followup become a new act of aggression?

I get where you are coming from, I just don't think it is correct to say that we aren't defending someone that is being hit by someone else.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1297096391' post='2624087']
Seriously Pacifica, thats the best your propaganda department can come up with?
[/quote]
There is no "propaganda department" besides Media, which I'm not in, and whatever it is that Sir Paul does, who I am not. What I did was independently bring up the events of Bipolar. TOP is so incredibly [i]fixated[/i] on Polaris's betrayal that they are completely ignoring the fact that there are alliances that stood beside them. Alliances who probably would have done so again in different circumstances. And this is how they are repaid?
[quote name='Crispy99' timestamp='1297102453' post='2624227']
Let's ignore the fact that we were thrust into that position
[/quote]
I'm fairly certain you were not forced to enter the war in the manner that you did.

[Leet Guy]

MK fighting NPO - "We didn't give them a second chance"
MK and TOP becoming friends after BiPolar - "You're not supposed to get a second chance"

This is why I don't bother sifting through all the !@#$%^&* here, enjoy burning NADC and whoever the hell those other alliances are.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1297109651' post='2624416']
There is no "propaganda department" besides Media, which I'm not in, and whatever it is that Sir Paul does, who I am not. What I did was independently bring up the events of Bipolar. TOP is so incredibly [i]fixated[/i] on Polaris's betrayal that they are completely ignoring the fact that there are alliances that stood beside them. Alliances who probably would have done so again in different circumstances. And this is how they are repaid?

[/quote]

And they do that by attacking our allies... ?

[Richard Rahl]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1297109157' post='2624399']
TOP on the other hand, loves only victory, and they'll be your friend as long as you are able to give it to them.
[/quote]

You're right, we only treaty people who bring us victory. That's why we are no longer allied to IRON...That's why we have no treaties with Argent or OMFG or TSO or VOC. Unless you've been a member of an alliance, you have no idea what they love or what they stand for. You're just an outsider looking in.

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1297109651' post='2624416']
There is no "propaganda department" besides Media, which I'm not in, and whatever it is that Sir Paul does, who I am not. What I did was independently bring up the events of Bipolar. TOP is so incredibly [i]fixated[/i] on Polaris's betrayal that they are completely ignoring the fact that there are alliances that stood beside them. Alliances who probably would have done so again in different circumstances. And this is how they are repaid?

I'm fairly certain you were not forced to enter the war in the manner that you did.
[/quote]

This is funny to hear from an NPOer. NPO would probably have had TOP stand by them again if they didn't spit in TOP's face during karma. But according to you, we must never attack anyone we have previously been in a coalition with. Something the NPO has never ever done. Unholy alliance indeed.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Richard Rahl' timestamp='1297110032' post='2624420']
This is funny to hear from an NPOer. NPO would probably have had TOP stand by them again if they didn't spit in TOP's face during karma. But according to you, we must never attack anyone we have previously been in a coalition with. Something the NPO has never ever done. Unholy alliance indeed.
[/quote]

The start of Karma was, sadly, not in the least the first instance in which that the NPO had decided to completely ignore TOP's interests. It was, rather, the first instance of such that we decided not to tolerate.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Crymson

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1297098759' post='2624153']
Wow and I thought you couldnt post anything dumber than before thanks for showing me anything is possible.
[/quote]
Oh Bud, your expectations of people are far far too high again.

[RailForge]

At least you guys in NADC, TSI, 64Digits and SNAFU can probably work out a deal with your TOP attackers to not nuke you so you can go on nuking MK.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='RailForge' timestamp='1297113163' post='2624465']
At least you guys in NADC, TSI, 64Digits and SNAFU can probably work out a deal with your TOP attackers to not nuke you so you can go on nuking MK.
[/quote]
Deal was already worked out. All nukes are to be directed at MK.

[Richard Rahl]

[quote name='RailForge' timestamp='1297113163' post='2624465']
At least you guys in NADC, TSI, 64Digits and SNAFU can probably work out a deal with your TOP attackers to not nuke you so you can go on nuking MK.
[/quote]

What are we amateurs? Deal was worked out before we ever went to war.

[Gobb]

[quote name='Weirdgus' timestamp='1297100381' post='2624187']
Actually, it was MK who attacked TPF members, without a formal DoW first. ML was the one who decided to respect their defensive clause with TPF and come defend their ally. So again it was MK who effectively attacked ML.

Thank you, come again.
[/quote]
No, it doesn't work like that.

[Aloop]

I gotta lol at that Railforge.

Good to see TOP had it planned in advance this time.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Aloop

[Weirdgus]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' timestamp='1297115597' post='2624508']
No, it doesn't work like that.
[/quote]

It doesn't work like that? MK didn't even have the decency to actually post a declaration of war before attacking TPF and you're trying to convince me that MK itself needed "defensive protection" from their allies in ToP?

Trying to convince me that white is actually black, much?