Preemptive Warfare

[Branimir]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297028321' post='2622662']That's not actually it. The OP says that they were being held off by others[/quote]
Where, exactly?

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297028321' post='2622662']NPO's neutrality was not a certainty when we attacked.[/quote]
Your entire DoW in the way it was delivered defeats your point.

Although it really isnt my business, but you should communicate more among yourselves so that your common DoW does not mean three different things for every alliance head. Just looks silly.

Come back latter once you get your stuff straight. We will talk then. Cheers.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Branimir

[Monster]

Perhaps that's how it was interpreted but it wasn't the intent as I discussed it with Archon before it was posted. I have seen no MK government that was involved in planning confirm the interpretation you're reading.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Branimir]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297028859' post='2622674']Perhaps that's how it was interpreted but it wasn't the intent as I discussed it with Archon before it was posted.[/quote]
It is more then a matter of my interpretation, or even of people on my side.

But you should take my advice and try to talk to Archon (or someone other if he isn't active) to exactly clear things among yourselves. Because currently, collectively you are not making sense as you are jumping in each others mouths. I am saying this because it would be also easier to talk to you as the opposite side in this war, if you all were clear on why exactly you even started it.

edit: To answer your edit. The DoW pointed out, as its main reason for war, "fact" that NpO/STA are protecting NPO as they are banking on us for latter times. So hence NPO was not to enter so you DoWed us. There is little left to free interpret here.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Branimir

[Banksy]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1297029232' post='2622682']
But you should take my advice and try to talk to Archon (or someone other if he isn't active) to exactly clear things among yourselves. Because currently, collectively you are not making sense as you are jumping in each others mouths. I am saying this because it would be also easier to talk to you as the opposite side in this war, if you all were clear on why exactly you even started it.
[/quote]
Um what? No one really cares what we call it except you.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1297023461' post='2622526']
Name one?
[/quote]

Defending your direct treaty partner (NSO) who was attacked.

What's my prize?

[Branimir]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1297029436' post='2622684']Um what? No one really cares what we call it except you.[/quote]
It is not a matter of how one calls it, but is more fundamental and a matter of why one even started it.

Currently it seems you among yourselves are not exactly clear as to why you started it. Roq said how you started it out of possibility of our entrance. Archons DoW said how you started it because we were being sparred from war intentionally by NpO/STA.

If you do nor care that you collectively are not making sense, then that is your thing but it would be nice if you could come to terms among yourselves as to why you launched this attack.

edit:
[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297029820' post='2622691']
Defending your direct treaty partner (NSO) who was attacked.

What's my prize?
[/quote]
The person I quoted was clearly referring to current NpO-VE conflict. If I misunderstood that and he meant it in a broader sense, then my answer to you would be that in that specific case we were not asked to join in.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Branimir

[Monster]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1297029853' post='2622694']
It is not a matter of how one calls it, but is more fundamental and a matter of why one even started it.

Currently it seems you among yourselves are not exactly clear as to why you started it. Roq said how you started it out of possibility of our entrance. Archons DoW said how you started it because we were being sparred from war intentionally by NpO/STA.

If you do nor care that you collectively are not making sense, then that is your thing but it would be nice if you could come to terms among yourselves as to why you launched this attack.
[/quote]

Not at all. Archon's lines are about Polar/STA protecting the flagship alliance. NPO's early involvement would not have been conducive to Polar's overall war effort and holding them off made the most sense strategically or NPO would just rolled early on if they got called in.

The best strategy for the Polar side was to hold off Legion's or any possible NPO entry until more alliances that would not want to be on the same side as NPO joined them.

sorry for all the edits

Edited February 6, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Branimir]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297030449' post='2622707']Not at all. Archon's lines are about Polar/STA protecting the flagship alliance. NPO's early involvement would not have been conducive to Polar's overall war effort and holding them off made the most sense strategically and just get NPO rolled.[/quote]
You do understand that if we fallow your line of logic, then in the moment deemed opportune for our entrance in the VE-NpO war we would be countered by overwhelming forces-- namely the non-engaged (at that point) people we already are attacked by and plus whatever additional defensive pacts we would trigger.

So preemtion makes no sense, at all. This entire line of logic, is depraved of it.

Azaghul was honest about it, and I give him props for that, that you saw that we weren't to enter and then brought the war to us. I do not know who exactly is to believe your tired line as it so obviously falls flat down on its face, but if you want to continue riding it for unknown reason,...well I can not stop you. Actually its better for my side of the argument.

But anyway, if you missed it;
[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1297028779' post='2622671']Although it really isnt my business, but you should communicate more among yourselves so that your common DoW does not mean three different things for every alliance head. Just looks silly.

Come back latter once you get your stuff straight. We will talk then. Cheers.
[/quote]
Think about it. Seriously.

Cheers now.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Branimir

[potato]

Roq, you don't get it. You can only have one reason. It can only mean one thing. You have to chose: black or white?

[Monster]

The point would be to minimize the pile-on by having gotten enough swing alliances or "floating strength" to join the Polar side or have waited Doomhouse(potentially deployed on other fronts) out. It's not really my issue if others want to be edgy for the fun of it. Azaghul and most of the posters you reference weren't involved in the planning. Not liking NPO was never the sole reason.

Good point, Potato.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Branimir]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1297031242' post='2622737']Roq, you don't get it. You can only have one reason. It can only mean one thing. You have to chose: black or white?[/quote]
It is not about having one reason-- it is about reasons that contradict themselves.
[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297031471' post='2622750']
The point would be to minimize the pile-on by having gotten enough swing alliances or "floating strength" to join the Polar side or have waited Doomhouse(potentially deployed on other fronts) out. [/quote]
?

I will leave the content of well laid down OP, as a counter view as to how that still makes no good sense or logic at all.

And giving you credit, that you are not silly people, only good sense and logic left for this DoW is to not let NPO not being involved in another war. Hurt and destroy it now, again, as its a opportune moment for it.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Branimir

[D34th]

Even the members of Doom House can't reach a consensus regarding why NPO was attacked.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1297027857' post='2622652']
How does this work? A reason for attacking is not a reason for war?

Are we going to have this massive scholarly debate about the mythical valid :cb: again?
[/quote]

Hm, let's use our brain. I say you don't have a reason for attack, and then I say the "reason" [b]you[/b] have is something utterly ridiculous: they don't fit under your thumb. That isn't a contradiction; it only points out your absurdity. Should I have put in a disclaimer right after it [i]this isn't really a reason at all[/i] for those of us here with elementary comprehension levels?

But I love out of all that that's what you choose to nit and pick. Congratulations. Don't be a defense attorney when you grow up. Now I'll move on to somebody that has something worth saying.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297032714' post='2622793']
Even the members of Doom House can't reach a consensus regarding why NPO was attacked.
[/quote]
Well, it's not terribly hard to figure out. DH didn't want NPO to jump in at a moment of its own choosing, so they chose a moment and got it into war. The aggressive war worked for two key reasons. First, most of the world was already distracted with the NpO-VE conflict. Second, their faction was already resolved to destroy NPO and its ability to project strength, so an aggressive war was not offensive to them.

Strategically, the plan makes perfect sense. As far as the ethics of the plan go, quite a few persons of note have expressed their disapproval and lack of acceptance. Quite a few other persons of note have either set their ethics aside for the purpose of the war with NPO or never had ethics to begin with.

If NPO is evil, then waging a war of aggression against NPO is evil fighting evil.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1297024050' post='2622550']



so wait, if Sir Paul "pretender Act" was enough to roll NPO, then VE should have happily gone with Polaris rolling fist for SCM impersonating Grub (when he was MoD) on IRC. glad that you agree with that war.

as for the reason- NPO was not getting involved, so they involved NPO. to my knowledge, NPO had done nothing really against MK or DH/PB (MK is part of DH) except for being a bit mouthy on the forums. which according to MK/et al is perfectly acceptable. So basically because NPO did not like DH/PB that is now enough to roll them? heh. and things supposedly got better. now if you don't like the hegemony you get rolled... wait, sounds exactly the same as before.

as for regular occurrence, i tend to ignore your posts over all. i have only replied to you in 2 possibly 3 threads despite you posting in a lot more than that. i ignore your posts cuz really, they are usually quite ignorant.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]
Christ child...I don't try very hard to be grammatically correct but I at least try to use correct punctuation so that my thoughts take on the appearance of coherency. Your posting style is an English teachers worst nightmare. Yeah, we all know its a game, and you aren't writing a damn essay, but try to raise your standards just a little bit.

I would be for Polaris rolling whoever for someone impersonating the head of MiniPax; but they would have done so at their own risk. Bros before angle headed gardening implements.

You seem to think that CB's ever matter to the side that is getting attacked en mass. They don't. The defending side always whines excessively about how some other conclusion could have been reached, that didn't involve blowing up their pixels.

The past 8 months the OWF has been littered with deliberately antagonistic and a systematic series of post from NPO that have be directed at PB/DH etc. Ever since the end of its terms, NPO has purposefully lined itself up as MK's adversary. NPO purportedly opposes all aspects of the predominant powers by purely on the virtue that they are not a part of the current power clique. The only noteworthy thing that Pacifica has done in the last 8 months is too be the "anti-MK" peanut gallery. Being MK's adversary is the only thing that has defined the post-Karma Pacifica.

Should it be no surprise that MK should be more than willing to participate? We have seen on more than one occasion the typical "If you don't like it, do something about it" comment from both sides of the treaty web. Well, something has been done. Pacifica is being rolled on the basis that it has made itself out to be the enemy of the powers that be beyond the point of simple disagreement; and into the realm of fanaticism.

Pacifica could have avoided getting rolled very easily. Establish and maintain simple and cordial diplomatic relations with the other side and engage in meaningful diplomatic dialog; not petty attempts at PR points and mediocre propaganda. Inter-Alliance relations exist more behind closed doors than in the public eye. NPO's lack of pragmatism, coupled with its ignorant myopia, is the main reason that they are now martyring themselves for the rest of Bob to view.[/color]

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='MrMuz' timestamp='1297020411' post='2622447']
The objective was to remove NPO from power.
[/quote]
What. Power?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Doug Falkner' timestamp='1297024721' post='2622577']
At the risk of taking this risk off topic, it has always struck me that war on Planet Bob is generally a matter of establishing one's coalition's place in the grand scheme of things. That being the case, whatever the stated CB is for any whatever the alliance, coalition, or whatever, in general war on Planet Bob tends to always be about the same things for the same reasons and the only real differences are the strategy employed to get the people you need to fight to fight you.

So it strikes me the real thing to talk about is whether one prefers the old fashion way of doing things, which was best characterized by NPO's modus operandi prior to the Karma War, that involved either finding an excuse or maneuvering one's enemy into attacking or the new way of doing things, which is characterized by Doomhouse's declaration on NPO, and simply declaring war when one believes that a war would be strategically advantageous. In the end, the question is whether one prefers directness or subtlety or nuance.
[/quote]

you do realize that the old way (NPO's) and the new way (DH/PB) are the exact same way? NPO never waited to be attacked, instead they launched the assault and claimed it to be defensive. DH launched the assault and claims it to be defensive. seems the same thing to me.

[Doug Falkner]

Doch,

My point was that essentially they have the same strategy and the only real difference is the amount of effort put into the cover stories, with NPO putting a bit more effort. Though, I suspect that you and I might have different opinions of that strategy. I tend to think that it's fine - mostly because it's inevitable that alliances will act in such a manner. I suspect that you are not in favor of the strategy.

[King Charge]

This argument that NPO should have reached out to MK and the very people that dismantled them in the past gets more paper thin each time someone uses it. Where was MK's outstreched hand? It was taunting them and baiting them to go to war so they could smash them (EDIT: and perhaps rightfully so. They don't like eachother. they never had, so why the hell would they reach out to them?). There's always two sides of the equation. The argument that has still baffled NPO's enemeies is the very logic they used themselves. Some of you choose to argue that if the current power of Planet Bob sat on their hands while NPO grew into a more formidable foe, Bob would be lost to the evil that is the New Pacific Order. I argue that whatever attempts at negotiations and reconciliation the NPO would have thrown at Doomhouse would ultimately fall on deaf ears.

NPO would be attacked regardless of what actions they decided to take. That hypothetical is just as valid as your hypothetical that NPO would attack their enemies at the first opportunity it ceased power. I can at least respect those who are saying "We hate the NPO, so we declared on them." But don't sit here and babble "useless dribble", was it?

Edited February 7, 2011 by King Charge

[Mirreille]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1297025435' post='2622591']
I don't think any of us in MK really cares if we're liked or not, to be honest.
[/quote]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1297046623' post='2623016']
[color="#FF0000"]
The past 8 months the OWF has been littered with deliberately antagonistic and a systematic series of post from NPO that have be directed at PB/DH etc. Ever since the end of its terms, NPO has purposefully lined itself up as MK's adversary. NPO purportedly opposes all aspects of the predominant powers by purely on the virtue that they are not a part of the current power clique. The only noteworthy thing that Pacifica has done in the last 8 months is too be the "anti-MK" peanut gallery. Being MK's adversary is the only thing that has defined the post-Karma Pacifica.

Should it be no surprise that MK should be more than willing to participate? We have seen on more than one occasion the typical "If you don't like it, do something about it" comment from both sides of the treaty web. Well, something has been done. Pacifica is being rolled on the basis that it has made itself out to be the enemy of the powers that be beyond the point of simple disagreement; and into the realm of fanaticism.

Pacifica could have avoided getting rolled very easily. Establish and maintain simple and cordial diplomatic relations with the other side and engage in meaningful diplomatic dialog; not petty attempts at PR points and mediocre propaganda. Inter-Alliance relations exist more behind closed doors than in the public eye. NPO's lack of pragmatism, coupled with its ignorant myopia, is the main reason that they are now martyring themselves for the rest of Bob to view.[/color]
[/quote]

I have seen other posts, including FAN's DOW, that seem to make the same argument. Why is it only MK is allowed the privilege of not caring whether other people like them or not? I'm wondering who they will decide is the next "threat" after this war is over.

[potato]

[quote name='Mirreille' timestamp='1297065932' post='2623811']
I have seen other posts, including FAN's DOW, that seem to make the same argument. Why is it only MK is allowed the privilege of not caring whether other people like them or not? I'm wondering who they will decide is the next "threat" after this war is over.
[/quote]

Where did I say MK was the only one allowed to not care?

[alyster]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1297073138' post='2623873']
Where did I say MK was the only one allowed to not care?
[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is that NPO is evil because it ruled with an iron fist. Now you must rule with an iron fist to prevent NPO from "returning to power". Where's the sig Death made about hypocracy again?

[potato]

[quote name='mikk206' timestamp='1297073771' post='2623877']
So basically what you are saying is that NPO is evil because it ruled with an iron fist. Now you must rule with an iron fist to prevent NPO from "returning to power". Where's the sig Death made about hypocracy again?
[/quote]

You put a lot of words into my mouth. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of looking for what you want it to be.

Edited February 7, 2011 by potato

[Voytek]

Stunt Pacifican Thread #3. Next.

[abdur]

Good read, would read again.