We Have a Grievance...

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1297000221' post='2622052']
Excuse me where did i say it was "cowardice" dont put words in my mouth as it makes you come across stupid. I know its a tactic, but knowing some member alliances in CnG, i merely stated it was an interesting choice.
[/quote]
Comparative analyses will always have a few minor differences, but i'm sure the point that you're gone from lauding the Hopeless Coalition strategy to criticising this one is pretty damn obvious.
Regarding the 'interesting choice' - size notwithstanding, who the hell would pass up the chance of stomping on legion?

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1296970035' post='2621416']
So I heard Legion was doing so good it took all of C&G to take them down lolol

(Just getting the stupid comment everyone's been using out of the way.)
[/quote]
Can we still call it a brilliant political move?

[LAAT501legion]

Good luck =LOST=

[KingEd]

[quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1296995936' post='2622011']
And can you still keep a straight face when you say you're better than the old hegemony?
Must take a lot of practice to fool yourselves to such an extend.

I wonder how long it will take for that attitude to bite you in the rear.
[/quote]

[set straight face] We're still better than the old Hegemony [/straight face]
Yea, we can still do it, deal with it.


[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1296998597' post='2622032']
You know attacking an alliance that has no non-commited allies left to counter DoW, so that is the least path of resistance. But please continue to live in your own dream world.
[/quote]

Really? Because C&G declared on Legion before NADC declared on MK, so at that point in time NADC was expected to counter C&G. But, 3 minutes later, NADC hits MK along with a few other alliances, and while they could still hit C&G, I doubt they will. On the other hand, they only declared a handful of war against MK and none against Umbrella, so they could easily hit C&G tonight - if they chose to.

[goldendawn]

Good luck guys.

[IMG]http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab168/Dayle1/CnG-3.png[/IMG]

[NotYou]

Thanks for saving everyone from the fearsome Legion

[Stefano Palmieri]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297000979' post='2622064']
The leader of the alliance you are defending seems to think agressive attacks make the MD bit oD
[/quote]
Well then we'd be activating the oD clause not the oA clause . Also, Sardonic is free to think that if he wants, but to us we're activating the MD clause, but whatever blows your skirt up.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Stefano Palmieri

[MagicalTrevor]

This is great.

[zyvexal]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1296995055' post='2622003']
Odd comment to make, I assume you're okay with watching the rest of your alliance burn while you cower away :/
[/quote]
Hey, to quote you guys: "we can just rebuild our lower tier"

[Laslo Kenez]

Send them to the depths of the sanction race C&G

[lamuella]

[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' timestamp='1297004263' post='2622105']
Well then we'd be activating the oD clause not the oA clause . Also, Sardonic is free to think that if he wants, but to us we're activating the MD clause, but whatever blows your skirt up.
[/quote]

it's well known that the expressed opinions of Sardonic should not be taken as representing the opinions of [i]sardonic[/i], let alone GOONS, let alone anyone else.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' timestamp='1297004263' post='2622105']
Well then we'd be activating the oD clause not the oA clause . Also, Sardonic is free to think that if he wants, but to us we're activating the MD clause, but whatever blows your skirt up.
[/quote]

Might want to change your treaty to MADP then considering the effects for you seem to be the same anyway.

[lamuella]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297005088' post='2622119']
Might want to change your treaty to MADP then considering the effects for you seem to be the same anyway.
[/quote]

silentkiller, the fact that your bias and limited understanding makes you think reality is a certain way doesn't make it necessarily so, no matter how often or how loudly you bellow your ignorance across the land.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297005268' post='2622121']
silentkiller, the fact that your bias and limited understanding makes you think reality is a certain way doesn't make it necessarily so, no matter how often or how loudly you bellow your ignorance across the land.
[/quote]

Lamuella, the fact that your bias and limited understanding makes you think reality is a certain way doesn't make it necessarily so, no matter how often or how loudly you bellow your ignorance across the land.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Zyvexal' timestamp='1297004645' post='2622110']
Hey, to quote you guys: "we can just rebuild our lower tier"
[/quote]

The difference is that you will most likely not get peace until all your nations have faced war So hiding in peace-mode is not really a viable option if DH choose to go down that route.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1296998057' post='2622029']
Yes, I can.

Anything else?
[/quote]

Yes, i suggest you read the 2nd line of the quote

[Goldie]

Are people really arguing semantics over this being oA or MD, when this war is against the Legion, which [b]ignored a direct ally being hit[/b]? Don't bust LOST's balls over this, when clearly Legion went out of it's way to let a MD ally burn. They deserve a myriad of stompings for that, I for one am excited to see them get one here.

Happy hunting C&G.

[lamuella]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1297005365' post='2622122']
Lamuella, the fact that your bias and limited understanding makes you think reality is a certain way doesn't make it necessarily so, no matter how often or how loudly you bellow your ignorance across the land.
[/quote]

at one end of the spectrum we have the exceptional rhetorical flourish of Vladimir, crafting page after page of reasoned and intelligent text outlining the history and theory of this world. At the other end we have silentkiller and "I know you are, but what am I?"

Tell me, when did the great libraries of Francograd burn? When did you willingly condemn yourself to this vast and depressing ignorance?

Edited February 6, 2011 by Lamuella

[King Louis the II]

Good luck to C&G! Happy hunting brothers...

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297005755' post='2622129']
at one end of the spectrum we have the exceptional rhetorical flourish of Vladimir, crafting page after page of reasoned and intelligent text outlining the history and theory of this world. At the other end we have silentkiller and "I know you are, but what am I?"

Tell me, when did the great libraries of Francograd burn? When did you willingly condemn yourself to this vast and depressing ignorance?
[/quote]

Cool story bro.

Now how about we get back ontopic?

Edited February 6, 2011 by silentkiller

[Hellbilly]

Congrats, I guess, on doing your part to insure that anyone can attack anyone they want in the future with no reason or valid CB needed. I certainly look forward to THAT future.

You can all say "We wont let that happen"... But guess what? You just did. Next time it could be you or your ally that they "dont like".

* The preceeding statement was made by someone with absolutely no relevance in this game, a leader of a micro alliance. The opinions of said person does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of all micro alliances, but it dam well should.

O/opinions

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Poiven' timestamp='1296998813' post='2622033']Do you know how Complaints and Grievances works? =LOST= has a treaty with GOONS. =LOST= defends GOONS. CnG is an MADP Pact. CnG rolls together. That's how it works.[/quote]In other words, other signatories of CnG were dragged to a war without having a say about it.
It's good that they still maintain their sovereignty, I guess.

[quote]I would hate to be your ally. There are cancellation periods for a reason; so that you don't just say "we are not able to accept this morally" and drop the treaty as soon as your friends are getting into real trouble, and you want to avoid it.

~Poiven
[/quote]So I guess that I will have to get used to the idea of not being your ally.
We have already proved that avoiding trouble does not play a part in our decision to join our friends.
Treaties as an excuse to backing any atrocity is a shameful way to avoid responsibility.


[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' timestamp='1296999560' post='2622044']
Ok, excuse me for being extremely confused by this. But can you explain how ODN/INT, two alliances that have no direct ties to GOONS, are GOONS' vassals? I mean really, did you just pull that straight out of your ass because it makes no sense.[/quote]They are forced to follow GOONS without having a say on the matter. If you still don't understand how, just say and I will try to provide you a detailed explanatation of the process.

[quote]Isnt the point of treaties to have your friends fight with you? We are defending our friends in GOONS, via our MDoAP, which in turn activates the MA clause of CnG. Whats the problem with this? Its the way the treaty web works. Also you shouldn't need a treaty to defend your friends, but thats another issue.[/quote]I fully agree with the last part of this paragraph.
As for the beginning of it, I don't consider treaties a carte blanche to asshatery and blindly following treaties without questions is practically giving up your independence.

[quote]Some of us find the CB acceptable, some don't and some dont care one way or the other. We're defending our friends and honouring our treaty obligations. GOONS are one of the best allies we could ask for. But hey, if you want to leave an ally out to burn because you don't agree with something they did good for you. It just makes me wonder why the hell anyone would want to be allied to you.[/quote]I suggest that you ask our allies. Our loyalty to them has already been tested.
I am not talking about some minor disagreement with "something they did", but about being dragged to a war by a treaty you have never signed and for a cause you STRONGLY disagree with.
Honouring treaties cannot come instead of your own moral judgment.

[Poiven]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1297006516' post='2622148']
In other words, other signatories of CnG were dragged to a war without having a say about it.
It's good that they still maintain their sovereignty, I guess.[/quote]
When you join an alliance, if that alliance goes to war, you go to war (unless you're not needed), and you don't desert. If you join an MADP bloc, it's the same thing. We have a say about it in that if, in the long run, we don't like it, we leave, just like you can leave an alliance; but not during a time of war.

[quote]So I guess that I will have to get used to the idea of not being your ally.
We have already proved that avoiding trouble does not play a part in our decision to join our friends.
Treaties as an excuse to backing any atrocity is a shameful way to avoid responsibility.[/quote]
We pick allies we hope won't be stupid. If they are, we signed a treaty with them, we honor it. It's as simple as that. If we don't like what they did, we drop the treaty; but not after defending them as we promised we would.

MDPs usually don't have a clause saying "except if you do something stupid."

~Poiven

Edited February 6, 2011 by Poiven

[Posta0]

I have to say this is pretty amazing. ODN vs Legion. 3+yrs ago when I was in ODN i would never have thought it possible. We even had membership exchanges and joint military units. A lot has changed.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Poiven' timestamp='1297007157' post='2622159']


MDPs usually don't have a clause saying "except if you do something stupid."

~Poiven
[/quote]

That's MADP you are thinking of or for some people a chaining MDoAP. MDoAPs are specifically there to provide you with an out incase your ally does something stupid.