Backroom Extortion is Back

[karthikking]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1289276069' post='2507228']
hmm... good question

Maybe a game of chess?
[/quote]

e2-e4

[o ya baby]

[quote name='karthikking' timestamp='1289275778' post='2507215']
Sometimes you get two fun choices.
[img]http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq330/karthik_king/ErrorMessage.png[/img]
[/quote]
good to know you're as annoying as always. you're in good company now lolol

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289275874' post='2507219']
Yeah, but most people that say it are only pretending because they think it is cool.

I really wouldn't pay. Ever.
[/quote]
well, good thing you're not relevant anymore or this statement would actually matter!

Edited November 9, 2010 by o ya baby

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='o ya baby' timestamp='1289276234' post='2507232']
good to know you're as annoying as always. you're in good company now lolol


well, good thing you're not relevant anymore or this statement would actually matter!
[/quote]
Yes, it is a very good thing for some people.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Detlev' timestamp='1289276045' post='2507227']
I must have missed it. At what point did anyone from MK threaten to attack NSO if it didn't pay the restitution? Surely it must be in there somewhere. I am embarrassed to say that I read the whole log. I didn't see anything in there to the effect of "if you don't agree to these terms we attack you."

Nice stunt, BTW. There's never a shortage of drama queenery with NSO.
[/quote]


<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but [b]we won't be protecting him. He's on his own[/b].
<Yevgeni> Him or you. [b]We consider NSO responsible[/b] as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.
<Yevgeni> Assuming he was a member up until a hour ago, he did what he did under your banner.
<Yevgeni> And, as such, as obviously he is completly unable to pay, [b]it is up to you to pay for his mistakes[/b]. That's how alliances work and you do know that.

Don't tell me there is no "Do it or else" tone present here.

[heggo]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1289275890' post='2507220']
I know you're incredibly eager to show this off everywhere, but you could have at least got it right. It's "pay up or blow up".
[/quote]
Now now, my art people are afforded creative license me thinks.

Anyway, I find it interesting that MK's government isn't actually doing anything to deny that they really only would have wanted [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Nation,Receiving_Nation&search=vapo+patria+heggomonomy"]the perfectly fair sum that I've already sent them[/url] had they only realized themselves that they were asking to be compensated for losses incurred by a ghost 5 fold.

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='karthikking' timestamp='1289276232' post='2507231']
e2-e4
[/quote]

You sunk my battleship

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1289276370' post='2507240']
Now now, my art people are afforded creative license me thinks.

Anyway, I find it interesting that MK's government isn't actually doing anything to deny that they really only would have wanted [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Nation,Receiving_Nation&search=vapo+patria+heggomonomy"]the perfectly fair sum that I've already sent them[/url] had they only realized themselves that they were asking to be compensated for losses incurred by a ghost 5 fold.
[/quote]
Then I guess this matter is closed, right?

You have sent MK all the "reparations" that they surely were actually expecting anyway and the issue is now moot.

Great job all around.

I guess RV can request this be closed since MK has received their payment in full.

[NLights]

Way to back down NSO.

[o ya baby]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1289276351' post='2507239']
<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but [b]we won't be protecting him. He's on his own[/b].
<Yevgeni> Him or you. [b]We consider NSO responsible[/b] as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.
<Yevgeni> Assuming he was a member up until a hour ago, he did what he did under your banner.
<Yevgeni> And, as such, as obviously he is completly unable to pay, [b]it is up to you to pay for his mistakes[/b]. That's how alliances work and you do know that.

Don't tell me there is no "Do it or else" tone present here.
[/quote]
i'm still not seeing where it directly says "pay up or we'll kill you"

i mean, you're pretty good at making things up and assuming, but i don't think it's appropriate for you to just go ahead and jump to conclusions without anyone actually saying anything for certain! it's just not fair to the fair people of the kingdom!

[Delta1212]

I'm... honestly surprised at some people. I don't know why anymore, to be honest.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='o ya baby' timestamp='1289276555' post='2507247']
i'm still not seeing where it directly says "pay up or we'll kill you"

i mean, you're pretty good at making things up and assuming, but i don't think it's appropriate for you to just go ahead and jump to conclusions without anyone actually saying anything for certain! it's just not fair to the fair people of the kingdom!
[/quote]
At least we have a mat for it.
[img]http://gesvol.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jump-to-conclusions.jpg[/img]

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289271823' post='2507083']
No, that is not all of what Tyga has been saying. He has been claiming that we are looking for any excuse to roll NSO. That is blatant misinformation.
[/quote]

Tyga mentioned rolling NSO once, and that was saying that MK and friends would be ready to roll NSO if needed. Other than that I can't see him saying you are looking for an excuse to roll NSO. Either you are an idiot and can't comprehend what he's saying, or you are trying to deflect his rather valid criticisms of your alliance.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289276704' post='2507251']
At least we have a mat for it.
[img]http://gesvol.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jump-to-conclusions.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Let me guess, you landed on "Moot"?

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1289276405' post='2507241']
You sunk my battleship
[/quote]

I raise you $40

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289276768' post='2507256']
Let me guess, you landed on "Moot"?
[/quote]
No, you and a few other people were already there.

[o ya baby]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289276704' post='2507251']
At least we have a mat for it.
[img]http://gesvol.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jump-to-conclusions.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
oh that's cute, we have pictures for you too!

[img]http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/consuminginterests/blog/expiredyogurt.jpg[/img]

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='o ya baby' timestamp='1289276869' post='2507260']
oh that's cute, we have pictures for you too!

[img]http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/consuminginterests/blog/expiredyogurt.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Really? That's the best you can do?

How many times do random nobodies like yourself have to go through this lame routine?

Yes, I am irrelevant. That is why you and people like you go out of your way anytime I bother to show up to point it out, because I am completely irrelevant. Makes perfect sense.

Please, continue.

[Detlev]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1289276351' post='2507239']
<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but [b]we won't be protecting him. He's on his own[/b].
<Yevgeni> Him or you. [b]We consider NSO responsible[/b] as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.
<Yevgeni> Assuming he was a member up until a hour ago, he did what he did under your banner.
<Yevgeni> And, as such, as obviously he is completly unable to pay, [b]it is up to you to pay for his mistakes[/b]. That's how alliances work and you do know that.

Don't tell me there is no "Do it or else" tone present here.
[/quote]
OOOOOH A TONE!!!

DIDJA HEAR THAT BABYJESUS THERE WAS A TONE!!!!!!!!!!!11


HAHAHALOL LMBO.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='o ya baby' timestamp='1289276555' post='2507247']
i'm still not seeing where it directly says "pay up or we'll kill you"

i mean, you're pretty good at making things up and assuming, but i don't think it's appropriate for you to just go ahead and jump to conclusions without anyone actually saying anything for certain! it's just not fair to the fair people of the kingdom!
[/quote]

How about you make it easy for me and say it explicitly next time. Say it a few times just for good measure..

[quote name='Detlev' timestamp='1289277111' post='2507272']
OOOOOH A TONE!!!

DIDJA HEAR THAT BABYJESUS THERE WAS A TONE!!!!!!!!!!!11


HAHAHALOL LMBO.
[/quote]

Ok..

Edited November 9, 2010 by SpoiL

[o ya baby]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1289277161' post='2507274']
How about you make it easy for me and say it explicitly next time. Say it a few times just for good measure..



Ok..
[/quote]
say what? we'll kill NSO if they don't pay up? does that mean you're going to [b]Do Something About It[/b] or what

[Letum]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289274033' post='2507161']
Again, what constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is subjective. Secondly, we cannot remove the fact that we are superior to NSO in every measure from the negotiations. As Ardus and I have both previously asked, what would you have us do? Decommission our military, reduce our economic efficiency, remove our treaties and friendships, and dumb ourselves down so that the Kingdom and NSO negotiated on an entirely even footing?
[/quote]

MK has a very peculiar way of pretending to acknowledge its implications of force, yet at the same time dismissing them by pretending that merely having an army is in itself something that distorts negotiations.

That is a lie.

You can be the strongest person in the world, but that does not mean that you are expected to actually beat up everybody you come across. If that intention does not exist, then your "strength" does not become a factor in the negotiations, simply because it is not a strength that would be used.

The fact that MK is unable to make that distinction is a clear indicator of the intimidation that took place here. Most alliances wouldn't hold a newbie reneging on a trade agreement as a reason to use military force against an entire alliance. If MK's attitude in this thread is anything to go by, [b]every single[/b] time when you negotiate with a weaker alliance is a time when you might use military force, therefore you insert that possibility and use it as a tool in any "discussions".

It is quite amazing that its members cannot explicitly recognize this, and a sign of how ingrained MK's position of power has become in their mentality. You do not have to "dumb yourselves down" in order to talk with someone weaker than you on an equal level. You merely have to [b]not try and force them to do something[/b] with that shiny army backing it up.

Most alliance interactions go through smoothly without the use of force entering anybody's mind. The "strength" of most alliances who have someone scam them out of money for a trade wouldn't be a factor in negotiations, because most alliances wouldn't use that strength to beat up the guy's alliance.

And if you aren't going to use your strength, it won't make a difference. So do not try to pass off your arrogant "we are better than them in every measure, that's not our fault" rhetoric. You are [b]making use[/b] of that power to [b]fulfil an underlying goal[/b] that damages the weaker party. That is a far cry from the average "interaction" that goes on between alliances.

[quote]
Time and time again this ridiculous argument has been refuted. The very officials that took part in this negotiation have stated, incontrovertibly, that there was room for the New Sith Order to negotiation. They chose not to negotiate; rather, they saw an opportunity to play the victim, at the detriment of their own alliance, in order to maybe score a few PR points. You are operating under the same misguided assumption that Tygaland was, reading straight out of Alterego's copy of Henny Penny's Guide to International Politics. There is a very clear difference between possessing the capacity to use military force, and actually acting on that capacity. Merely having a top-notch military does not mean that an alliance will use said military at the drop of a hat.
[/quote]

Merely having a military does not mean that an alliance will use said military at the drop of a hat. A noob scamming of his trade partners is [b]not[/b] a situation where an alliance should be using their military. Yet MK does not seem content to do what an alliance should do.

As you have admitted, MK makes full use of their status to meet their goals. From the point that use is made, the "military" stops being a passive and innocuous thing lying in the corner, and becomes a threat. You cannot both enjoy the benefits of your power and yet pretend that you are not using it.

If MK was not willing to use its military force, then its military force would have been irrelevant to the issue. Which is what would have happened between most alliances who face a minor issue with a trade gone wrong, and decide to *not* barge in accusing of lies and making initial demands they themselves regard as high (as belied by the expectation of them being lowered).



[quote]
Again, I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. It is quite clear that your perception of what constitutes negotiation is still tainted by the precedents your own alliance set. The Kingdom does not involve itself in Pacifican 'negotiation' where an ultimatum is given at the beginning and there is no room for discussion. As has been stated numerous times, there was a clear opportunity for the New Sith Order to have a genuine, good faith discussion with our government regarding the nature of the final resolution. That opportunity was alive and kicking up until the point where it became clear that RV was more interested in playing the victim to score a few PR points than actually negotiating in the best interests of his own alliance.
[/quote]

The "Kingdom" involves itself in crude bullying under the guise of an imaginary 2-year bogeyman.

The mere fact that this went from a small nation reneging on his trade promises to you intimidating another alliance into handing over what a wide section of the world is condemning you for is a key indicator of that. The "best interests" of NSO should not have even entered the equation, and they only did so because of MK's excessive policies.


[quote]
It is great to see you admit that the negotiation was genuine.
[/quote]

Well, I haven't really seen any claims that the logs are fake, so I am not quite sure what was in question. Unless you are somehow trying to attribute that the element of choice removes the element of extortion - which would be ridiculous. Even if I were held at gunpoint I would still have the "choice" of dying on my feet, but that does not change the facts of the situation.

[quote] Again, how exactly would you suggest a larger alliance overcome this problem of negotiating on fair and equal terms when dealing with a smaller alliance?
[/quote]

An alliance which does not [b]make use[/b] of its power to intimidate everybody it interacts with over minor issues would have no such problem. The words of MK members in this thread do not seem to indicate that they are capable of being such an alliance. Indeed, the mere fact that this question keeps popping up shows how ingrained it is that "having power" = "using it to get our way" is in the minds of the Kingdom.

Well done.

[Baldr]

So MK will be paying $3M and 50 tech to everyone that one of their nations was trading with any time a MK nation drops a trade?

There could be a nice little business in this. Watch for MK newbies, set up a trade with them. Most new nations delete before long. Profit.

Of course, MK wouldn't pay. Claiming that every time you lose a trade, you are owed money and tech is stupid, and MK knows it.

All of the "This is a NSO member" and "This isn't a NSO member" stuff seems irrelevant. Once NSO says "We've kicked them out" then it's clear that NSO isn't going to defend that nation. if MK wants to go after him, they can. Paying $3M to replace the money MK sent to the nation would make sense. Even $3M and 50 tech. $15M and 250 tech is clearly just extortion.

And NSO, I think it was a mistake to agree. Sure, it keeps you from getting rolled. It also gives MK incentive to find another reason to require you to pay extortion. After all, if you are just going to pay it when they ask, then they may as well ask over and over. So you either pay it over and over, or you eventually say "Nope, we're not doing that". And if you are going to say no, you may as well say it right away instead of after you've given them a bunch of tech/money.

[AirMe]

[quote name='o ya baby' timestamp='1289277302' post='2507276']
say what? we'll kill NSO if they don't pay up? does that mean you're going to [b]Do Something About It[/b] or what
[/quote]

Post's like this certainly aren't helping your position.

[o ya baby]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1289277376' post='2507279']
So MK will be paying $3M and 50 tech to everyone that one of their nations was trading with any time a MK nation drops a trade?

There could be a nice little business in this. Watch for MK newbies, set up a trade with them. Most new nations delete before long. Profit.
[/quote]
did you even read the thread? come on skipper, the OP states that the nation in question was sent money for the habour and was supposed to trade with them for a certain amount of time, but instead dropped the trade after receiving the aid. can you even read or do you just like watching yourself talk

Edited November 9, 2010 by o ya baby

[Mathias]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1289277376' post='2507279']
So MK will be paying $3M and 50 tech to everyone that one of their nations was trading with any time a MK nation drops a trade?

There could be a nice little business in this. Watch for MK newbies, set up a trade with them. Most new nations delete before long. Profit.[/quote]

Everything you said in this quote is correct. This is clearly a precedent MK is setting, and it hasn't been indicated otherwise that this is not the case.