United Purple Nations Announcement

[Griff]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1286764589' post='2480889']
So you're cancelling on the alliance you owe your life to? Good luck with that.
[/quote]
Yeah, this. I don't like ODN but they did save your rear ends.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286772763' post='2481238']How? If UPN was being the aggressor as many people seem to be saying then ODN was under no obligation. If they were in a defensive position ODN should have fought it out for them if that's what they asked. Or ODN could have just cancelled the treaty if they didn't want to fight I guess.[/quote]
Do you have some kind of pathos against reading logs or something? They were doing everything they possibly could to manipulate the situation into something they could sell to people as being a defensive one.

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286772583' post='2481231']
[i]Exactly![/i] Papa OsRavan saved poor Peggy from herself. It's the very opposite of what a MDoAP "partner" should be doing.


Welcome to Compulsory Treaties 101. If you think running treaty chain situations is some kind of wild thing that we made up Friday night you should please drop this course, and enroll in Treaties 3, the remedial course.
[/quote]

This just in: Good allies let their allies get rolled.

[Biazt]

Schatt, you really should stop trying to spin this and quit while you're behind. You're embarrassing yourself even more.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Biazt

[General Scipio]

nvm I misunderstood

Edited October 11, 2010 by General Scipio

[Rugby]

Cancellations are never easy, and rarely black and white. Good luck to both parties.

[Locke]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286766316' post='2480984']
The problem with OsRavan's actions is that he was acting in total contradiction to UPN's wishes. OsRavan undermined Peggy's authority and UPN's sovereignty by entering ex parte with GOONS and directly making a deal Peggy had rejected. That is not the act of an ally regardless of whether UPN's decision to reject GOONS offer was bad or not.

Alliances don't pay off their allies' enemies to go away behind their backs and get a high-five. OsRavan's behavior is really rather shocking to me.
[/quote]
Heh, I'm reminded of Kronos having TOP make deals with STA without their consent.


[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1286771757' post='2481204']
How is it beneficial for UPN?
[/quote]
Well, a few reasons. As Schatt's noted, any time an ally does !@#$ behind your back (which admittedly both have done here) it's cause for concern. This also allows UPN to make their FA direction even more clear, now with only 1 instead of 2 main FA interests.

All in all, I'm sure this will be wonderful for the both of you.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1286772770' post='2481239']
The 'futility' in my statement refers to the false CB and dishonorable war aims, not any estimation of likely losses on the part of ODN in the event that your plan had worked. ODN does not make decisions on whether or not to enter a war based on whether it would lose, and you know very well if you weren't being lazy and/or dishonest yourself that such considerations were not at issue here.
[/quote]
What is "false" about the situation? UPN made the sovereign decision to accept a nation as a member who had previously been at war, but was at peace at the time it applied and was accepted. When GOONS attacked the nation again, it was a member of UPN and therefore an attack on that nation was an attack on UPN. GOONS demanded $15,000,000 under threat of continued aggression, and (at this point this is my understanding from what I have been told) Peggy agreed but could not aid GOONS while they are at war with FnKa and Ninjas, which is itself an act of war. GOONS refused middle ground ont he issue and continued their posturing that attacks would continue until they got their payday. [s]Maybe[/s] at ODN you cough up when the collectors come around, but Peggy decided that that was not what she wanted to do. Coupled with the simultaneous attack on a third longstanding member of UPN, this was the fourth time that GOONS had attacked or raided UPN in the recent period.

What's to manufacture about that? Nothing. There's no grand scheme, there's no manufacturing, the alliances that were assembled didn't have to do a damn thing except go to war if UPN went to war. The only thing open to interpretation was whether UPN was in a defensive or aggressive position if they retaliated to GOONS's attacks. If ODN thought that a war was stupid, then all they had to do was decide it was an aggressive situation, and the treaty was meaningless in the situation. If you weren't willing to go with UPN's assessment of their own situation, then why bother "saving" them--you clearly had no confidence in them as an ally.

So what was the motivation? ODN saves the day? Master Diplomat OsRavan gets a major re-election issue for a mere $15,000,000? UPN lives to defend ODN when the situation is reversed? Help me out, here, Pingu, because while you're claiming I have an unwavering belief in sovereignty because I'm butthurt that I'm not at war right now, I can't see any reason for OsRavan to have stopped the war except to keep ODN out. That's honest-to-Mod all I see and it makes the most sense.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286772271' post='2481219']
Honestly, if ODN worked against UPN's wishes, even if "for their own good" then they are rid of an ally who acted more like their protector than their ally.

How would you feel if MK was set on a course of action, no matter what the cost to MK, and one of your former allies went behind your back and essentially took away the course of action you wanted to pursue?


That's pretty much what seems to have happened here. Even if it meant UPN was going to take a beating, it should have been their choice to pursue it that way if they wished and let ODN sit the war out if they thought UPN was being the aggressor.
[/quote]

I would thank them for showing me the stupidity of my ways. Good friends don't let others do stupid things, and can also take criticism. Obviously UPN has shown they can't stand without ODN's crutch. In fact, it was the same exact crutch they used as an excuse to get out of the last war unscathed, allowing them to worm their way into a sanction for however brief a moment.

[Ubermeir]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286772763' post='2481238']
How? If UPN was being the aggressor as many people seem to be saying then ODN was under no obligation. If they were in a defensive position ODN should have fought it out for them if that's what they asked. Or ODN could have just cancelled the treaty if they didn't want to fight I guess.

The behind the back usurping of soverignty was not the correct move imo.
[/quote]

Working to ebroil an "ally" in a war and then complaining when they resolve the fabrication peacefully is not, in my mind,a good point.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1286773758' post='2481267']
I would thank them for showing me the stupidity of my ways. Good friends don't let others do stupid things, and can also take criticism. Obviously UPN has shown they can't stand without ODN's crutch. In fact, it was the same exact crutch they used as an excuse to get out of the last war unscathed, allowing them to worm their way into a sanction for however brief a moment.
[/quote]


Stupid or not, it should have been UPN's choice to make. ODN could have said "hey, you are starting an aggresive war with a terrible CB" and walked away. It certainly worked well for MHA at the start of Karma. I am sure it would have worked just as well here.

I asked Voytek this before and didn't get an answer....

How would you feel if MK decided they were going to take action x regardless of the cost/consequences to MK, then one of your allies/friends steps in without informing MK and eliminates the possibility of that course of action?

I have a feeling that UPN knew what the consequences were going to be for pursuing the course they took. But it should have been their decision on how to handle it.

[Pingu]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286773650' post='2481263']
So what was the motivation? ODN saves the day? Master Diplomat OsRavan gets a major re-election issue for a mere $15,000,000? UPN lives to defend ODN when the situation is reversed? Help me out, here, Pingu, because while you're claiming I have an unwavering belief in sovereignty because I'm butthurt that I'm not at war right now, I can't see any reason for OsRavan to have stopped the war except to keep ODN out. That's honest-to-Mod all I see and it makes the most sense.
[/quote]

As you point out, ODN would not have had to enter the war on UPN's side if UPN were the aggressor, so I wonder why you even consider keeping ODN out of the conflict a possible motivation. It seems to me much more plausible that OsR was working to keep [i]UPN[/i] out of an unnecessary conflict by averting it altogether. If, as you say, it was not possible for UPN to pay reps it had agreed to, then an ally stepping in to pay those reps seems utterly reasonable.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Pingu

[Dr Beefstupid]

Congrats, ODN.

o/

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286774417' post='2481277']
Stupid or not, it should have been UPN's choice to make. ODN could have said "hey, you are starting an aggresive war with a terrible CB" and walked away. It certainly worked well for MHA at the start of Karma. I am sure it would have worked just as well here.

I asked Voytek this before and didn't get an answer....

How would you feel if MK decided they were going to take action x regardless of the cost/consequences to MK, then one of your allies/friends steps in without informing MK and eliminates the possibility of that course of action?

I have a feeling that UPN knew what the consequences were going to be for pursuing the course they took. But it should have been their decision on how to handle it.
[/quote]

It actually did not take away any course of action. Are you saying ODN runs UPN? UPN admits they took the deal ODN set up. If they didn't want this resolved, they could have just as easily thrown a fit and not taken the deal ODN arranged. This is not an instance where ODN took any course of action away from UPN seeing as they could have attacked anyway, no matter how hilarious that would have turned out.

[Crowdog07]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1286764698' post='2480900']
I think UPN would be doing much better, with many more allies and much more respect, if they had never allied with ODN.
[/quote]

Depends who you talk to. I didn't respect UPN when they were allied to ODN, but I respected them less before then.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286766316' post='2480984']
The problem with OsRavan's actions is that he was acting in total contradiction to UPN's wishes. OsRavan undermined Peggy's authority and UPN's sovereignty by entering ex parte with GOONS and directly making a deal Peggy had rejected. That is not the act of an ally regardless of whether UPN's decision to reject GOONS offer was bad or not.

Alliances don't pay off their allies' enemies to go away behind their backs and get a high-five. OsRavan's behavior is really rather shocking to me.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]ODN stopped UPN from committing what would pretty much be suicide. I mean, let's face it, UPN isn't the brightest alliance out there.[/color]

[quote name='DemonSpawn' timestamp='1286768977' post='2481111']
It's nice to see UPN throwing another peice of FAIL onto that rather large pile in the corner.

Congrats ODN.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Do not tarnish the good name of FAIL by mentioning that alliance with the same breath as UPN. It deserves better. Not much better, but better than that at least.[/color]

Edited October 11, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Dylan Lusk]

Good luck UPN.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1286774488' post='2481278']
As you point out, ODN would not have had to enter the war on UPN's side if UPN were the aggressor, so I wonder why you even consider keeping ODN out of the conflict a possible motivation. It seems to me much more plausible that OsR was working to keep [i]UPN[/i] out of an unnecessary conflict by averting it altogether. If, as you say, it was not possible for UPN to pay reps it had agreed to, then an ally stepping in to pay those reps seems utterly reasonable.
[/quote]
We're both older than this exchange as your edit reflects. You go on and believe that I'm annoyed over a war if you want. I guffawed at OsRavan's actions in earnest and I won't argue with you over why I believe what I do. I believe ODN has come a long way, but however good-intentioned it may have been, this was a poor show in my view.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1286774948' post='2481289']
[color="#0000FF"]ODN stopped UPN from committing what would pretty much be suicide. I mean, let's face it, UPN isn't the brightest alliance out there.[/color]
[/quote]
I don't play the WAE game. UPN (apparently) made some sort of mistake in the last war which was defined by mistakes and every kind of treaty web idiocy by [i]everyone[/i] involved. Since then they have done what few other alliances have the vision or bravery to do, and cleared up their foreign policy. That's bright enough for me, I'm sick of this eternal ostracization of alliances for giggles--I'm not a [i]!@#$@#$[/i] preschooler and I thought most everyone else wasn't, either.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Crowdog07]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286775852' post='2481300']
We're both older than this exchange as your edit reflects. You go on and believe that I'm annoyed over a war if you want. I guffawed at OsRavan's actions in earnest and I won't argue with you over why I believe what I do. I believe ODN has come a long way, but however good-intentioned it may have been, this was a poor show in my view.


I don't play the WAE game. UPN (apparently) made some sort of mistake in the last war which was defined by mistakes and every kind of treaty web idiocy by [i]everyone[/i] involved. Since then they have done what few other alliances have the vision or bravery to do, and cleared up their foreign policy. That's bright enough for me, I'm sick of this eternal ostracization of alliances for giggles--I'm not a [i]!@#$@#$[/i] preschooler and I thought most everyone else wasn't, either.
[/quote]


Events like this are why suicide hotlines and suicide awareness month exist. It doesn't even take a good friend, just a good person to stop someone from committing suicide. If my friend tells me he's going to shoot himself next week, I'd be a fool not to steal the gun from him and reason him out of that idea, which is essentially what ODN did. If someone can't do that, then they clearly don't care about their friends. Sometimes the more mature person has to stand in the way because they see the big picture.

ODN, you reflect poorly on me with this decision. How dare you?

Edited October 11, 2010 by Crowdog

[D34th]

Congratulations UPN, ODN just showed one more time how afraid of lose their precious pixels they are, the only reason that are alliances who still have a treaty with them is because meatshields are appreciated. I look forward to see ODN abandon some of those alliances when they find themselves in the losing or small side of the treaty web , principles worth much more than money or be in the biggest side unfortunately ODN will never learn this.

UPN o/

[Kalasin]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1286777270' post='2481315']
Congratulations UPN, ODN just showed one more time how afraid of lose their precious pixels they are, the only reason that are alliances who still have a treaty with them is because meatshields are appreciated. I look forward to see ODN abandon some of those alliances when they find themselves in the losing or small side of the treaty web , principles worth much more than money or be in the biggest side unfortunately ODN will never learn this.

UPN o/
[/quote]

Anything for a shot at us, eh, D34th?

[Pingu]

And D34th rides in, unfashionably late, trailing tired barbs that were already stale when he learned them a year ago. You need to raise your game, sir, if you wish to be anything more than a ridiculous anachronism.

[Max Cristof]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1286777270' post='2481315']
Congratulations UPN, ODN just showed one more time how afraid of lose their precious pixels they are, the only reason that are alliances who still have a treaty with them is because meatshields are appreciated. I look forward to see ODN abandon some of those alliances when they find themselves in the losing or small side of the treaty web , principles worth much more than money or be in the biggest side unfortunately ODN will never learn this.

UPN o/
[/quote]

Sorry for keeping one of our allies, (and yours) out of a war that probably wouldn't have ended well for them!

I wish I heard other opinions from you besides ODN being a pixel-mongering alliance.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Max Cristof

[Wasila]

Thanks UPN . Good luck!

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1286772849' post='2481241']
Do you have some kind of pathos against reading logs or something? They were doing everything they possibly could to manipulate the situation into something they could sell to people as being a defensive one.
[/quote]
In the cluster$%&@ war ODN prevented UPN from honoring any of their other treaties to keep them satisfied, which damaged UPN relations with most of their other allies and color sphere as UPN couldn't get invovled. If UPN and ODN have spoken and they can see both of their FA futures aren't going to become more compatible, then canceling the treaty is most logical thing to do. Especially if that disconnect in having different allies causes one alliance to act against the interests of another to benefit other friends which the alliances don't share.