UOKMB war with GOONS

[CEverettKoop]

In response to the complaints of letting our allies have some of fun here, let me speak down to Earth, in a language that everybody here can easily understand, and give an example.

You throw a house party. You have a couple of your closest friends and maybe a couple people they know over. There's a couple cases of beer and some bags of chips, a decent stereo, nothing too fancy. You just plan to chill out, maybe play some games or something along the like. Nothing big, nothing memorable.

But you see that your neighbors are home, neighbors that you like, and they want to party too. It just so happens that these neighbors each have something to bring to the table. Like the guy who has a full DJ rig and is itching to perform. Or James, who's big into microbrewing and has whipped up some new samples that he's just dying to get some feedback on. How about the girls down the road, who haven't had a good time in months? And the Ramirez's? Best jerk chicken in the state and they've got a grill that goes on for miles.

See, now it's a block party. And let me tell you with 100% sincerity, honesty, and truth, that a block party is a hell of a lot better than a house party.

But the problem is that block parties are quite rare. Sure, you can try and organize one but trying to coordinate everyone's schedule and things come up and it never quite comes together. So when you get the opportunity to throw down with all your friends, you need to seize that opportunity for all it's worth.

I do hope this clears it up for everyone. tl;dr? It's good to have friends.

[Ziperia]

[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1283888704' post='2445605']
*snip*
[/quote]
Quite damn good analogy, I hope people start to finally get this

[DeadAnimal]

[quote name='Ziperia' timestamp='1283888421' post='2445600']
You might not care of my opinion, but I do think that nuking a tech raid target who attacks you back is lame, overreaction and cowardice. Like you wouldn't already have caused him enough harm.
Tech raiding is cool, I like how it boosted my nation growth, but at least I was man enough to take those occasional retaliations I got without escalating the conflict.
[/quote]

Its not cowardice, its Realpolitik. Ive been raided by a nation with nukes: I was unaligned at the time and paid the price for not being on a protected AA. They made it clear that if I fought back, they would nuke me. Instead of being rash, I actually talked to them and settled the issue. Raiding with the threat of nukes promotes the least amount of retaliation, actually minimizing lossess for the nation being raided.

[thekirbyfake]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283888185' post='2445592']
I am not debating that the raider in question was the first one to launch a nuke, I'm just trying to confirm or disprove these claims that the nuclear attack was unprovoked.

I can't even start defending that action if it was.
[/quote]
Have a look at the screenshots. The top one was already peaced out. Why would anyone take offered peace from one nation but attack the other two? I wish I'd done screencaps before this war to show zero attacking casualties.

This is one side of the story and I would invite ktarthan to give his justification for nuking a raid target.

[tanglerat]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283887680' post='2445582']
I would once again like to request some form of proof that the GOONS nation in question nuked the UOKMB nation in question in a manner that was not a response to aggressive actions by the UOKMB nation in question.

Normally, the burden of proof would be on me, but I can't see other nation's war reports.
[/quote]

Er, just ask your Aliance mates who did the raiding/nuking if they were provoked.

Here's a brief synopsis of the lead-in:

The eight of us formed UOKMB with a view to gettiing more involved CN than just pay tax, collect tax, deal a bit of tech, buy some infra/improvment/wonder, pay tax, collect tax, sort out an errant trade now and again.

We did not form with the express intention of warring with the goons. (Now, that may have been TFK's secret intention when bringing us together, but he hid it well. We had a chat about potential enemies out there, and the possibility of having some fun with them, when I mentioned the goons. I think I may have been the first to bring up the name. And that was only because I remembered all the talk on the Forums of their antics plus one of my trades had a bad time of it with goons raiding when he was a very very newbie.)

These chats could be accessed by someone we trusted. Who promptly split and blabbed to God knows who. But word got out about us.

So here's where i feel the goons missed a trick: They heard about us and our discussions, and didn't get in touch to say something like - "Come on guys, get real. 300 vs 8? Cop on. If you're looking for some fun and action there's other ways of doing it than attacking us." Or something like that.

Instead, our weakest player (non nuke) player gets raided by goons, then he gets nuked by them.

All fair enough really, all within the rules. Just like what we're doing. We're a bunch who'll stand together and stick by each other regardless of cost to ourselves. And we won't be intimidated, bullied or pushed around by anyone. (Not just goons - anyone. It's how we do things).

This could have been handled differently. A very different outcome could have been possible. But it wasn't, so it won't.

I suspect we're only doing what so many, many other Nations wished they could've done when the goons came to visit.

[Ziperia]

[quote name='DeadAnimal' timestamp='1283889127' post='2445615']
Its not cowardice, its Realpolitik. Ive been raided by a nation with nukes: I was unaligned at the time and paid the price for not being on a protected AA. They made it clear that if I fought back, they would nuke me. Instead of being rash, I actually talked to them and settled the issue. Raiding with the threat of nukes promotes the least amount of retaliation, actually minimizing lossess for the nation being raided.
[/quote]
Hmm. I haven't heard of such policies before, though can be because I've tried to avoid the drama filled OWF until recently. However, though I have raided people and I've been raided, I've never heard of someone using nukes to keep their target from retaliating. Actually, I've heard of raiding alliances having the policy of not allowing first strike nukes on raids. You call it realpolitik, I still consider it cowardice.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1283880166' post='2445481']
Yeah fighting a couple of nuclear rogues is totally the same thing as curbstombing alliances
[/quote]

The members of UOKMB are being curb-stomped. That is a fact. They are being curb stomped after they chose to declare war on an alliance that supported a nuclear nation who tech raided a non-nuclear nation in their group. GOONS are not denying that it happened that way. I am using the word "group" as opposed to alliance because regardless of their status, they are still a group of nations under one AA. If you were in their position, what would you do? Do they have a "right" in your opinion to fight back or not?

In my opinion, as a community it should be agreed that they can fight back, they should be allowed to fight back without being sanctioned for it and they are not really "rogues" because they are responding to a wrong committed against them by a member of the alliance they attacked.

Assuming you are okay with them fighting back, do you think that GOONS really really needed both help from allies to protect themselves and help from a senator with sanctions? If not, in my opinion, the other alliances should have stayed out of it.

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1283880166' post='2445481']
and driving people from the game.
[/quote]

(OOC: thekirbyfake, please be honest here too and don't just say you all are going to leave because you think that's the answer I want to hear - after finishing the war with GOONS, how many of you, if any, are going to continue to lead a nation somewhere and how many, if any, plan not to come back? For those who go, does this incident have anything to do with the choice?)

Edited September 7, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' timestamp='1283886805' post='2445571']
so few nukes the GRL isn't even capped :3
[/quote]
There's a whole lot of SDI whiffing going on. With the low warchests and lack of WRCs and spies, I'm not sure if they're going to blitz them on the SDIs and lose most of them, or conserve them to nuke only non-SDI nations (and lose most of them through spies).

[quote name='tanglerat' timestamp='1283889264' post='2445623']
Here's a brief synopsis of the lead-in:
[/quote]
You guys sure talk a lot for people who supposedly don't care. I kind of wonder how long you can use that line before people stop believing it.

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='tanglerat' timestamp='1283889264' post='2445623']
I suspect we're only doing what so many, many other Nations wished they could've done when the goons came to visit.
[/quote]

Get utterly demolished and become a footnote on the cn wikia? I hope most have higher aspirations.

[thekirbyfake]

What's your take on the nuke raid Beefspari?

[Whyohwhy]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283890346' post='2445635']
There's a whole lot of SDI whiffing going on. With the low warchests and lack of WRCs and spies, I'm not sure if they're going to blitz them on the SDIs and lose most of them, or conserve them to nuke only non-SDI nations (and lose most of them through spies).


You guys sure talk a lot for people who supposedly don't care. I kind of wonder how long you can use that line before people stop believing it.
[/quote]

You know what, I enjoy this game.

I don't like all of the players, and I definately wont be voting for a certain senator any more, but the game has become more interesting and enlightening to see how 8 "rogues" who will come what may support each others nation through this can expose the weakness' of some larger alliances.

It is sad to see that even though the Goons have admitted launching the first nuke against the only nation in our Alliance that wasn't equipped with nukes.

7 of us could have fought back, but we helped the non nuke nation get his own nukes and then retaliated.

Perhaps we should be seeking compensation for the damage to our Nations by the Rogue Goon who fired the first nuke. And if he can't pay the maybe his alliance comrades will stick by him and contribute

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Karolina' timestamp='1283883684' post='2445522']
Well, since my post was pure sarcasm, clearly, neither do you.
[/quote]
And you dont realise how to use sarcasm on the internet

[tanglerat]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1283890526' post='2445637']
Get utterly demolished and become a footnote on the cn wikia? I hope most have higher aspirations.
[/quote]

No silly, you're confusing what we're doing with the consquences of what we're doing.

[Itsuki Koizumi]

i still can't believe this is still going on. Too much attention for such a little thing :/

[Raider]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283889735' post='2445630']
The members of UOKMB are being curb-stomped. That is a fact. They are being curb stomped after they chose to declare war on an alliance that supported a nuclear nation who tech raided a non-nuclear nation in their group. GOONS are not denying that it happened that way. I am using the word "group" as opposed to alliance because regardless of their status, they are still a group of nations under one AA. If you were in their position, what would you do? Do they have a "right" in your opinion to fight back or not?

In my opinion, as a community it should be agreed that they can fight back, they should be allowed to fight back without being sanctioned for it and they are not really "rogues" because they are responding to a wrong committed against them by a member of the alliance they attacked.

Assuming you are okay with them fighting back, do you think that GOONS really really needed both help from allies to protect themselves and help from a senator with sanctions? If not, in my opinion, the other alliances should have stayed out of it.



(OOC: thekirbyfake, please be honest here too and don't just say you all are going to leave because you think that's the answer I want to hear - after finishing the war with GOONS, how many of you, if any, are going to continue to lead a nation somewhere and how many, if any, plan not to come back? For those who go, does this incident have anything to do with the choice?)
[/quote]
http://forums.cybern...dpost&p=2443683

So if this is a truthful statement what does this mean? It means they indeed intended to go nuclear rogue from the start. Now while they were building up for their attack on their at-the-time-not-chosen target GOONS raided one of their members as they fall within the bounds of our tech raiding policy. Clearly the raided member resisted and had to be nuked to accept peace and to minimize the damage he could inflict. Thus we indeed gave them a target and spared another alliance from having to battle eight nuclear rogues. Now they are simply trying to spin it into a GOONS are evil, tech raiding is bad, you're reaping what you sow. When their intent all along was to attack someone which makes all this "they're standing up for themselves" rather hollow.

If they hold chosen another alliance would there be the same level of support for them? I don't think so. Some people just wanna is us get hit.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Raider

[thekirbyfake]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283890346' post='2445635']
With the low warchests
[/quote]
And what about the Goons chests?

Three of the people I'm fighting have got 5m, 10m and 15m.

I'll give Psionic his due as he has/had 200m. And he successfully gathered info on me so he knows what I got. Should be a good battle

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1283880166' post='2445481']
Yeah fighting a couple of nuclear rogues is totally the same thing as curbstombing alliances and driving people from the game.
[/quote]

Raiding nations relentlessly and nuking them drives people from Planet Bob.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1283893187' post='2445678']
Raiding nations relentlessly and nuking them drives people from Planet Bob.
[/quote]
Apparently the opposite is true, they band together and revolt, much more interesting, no?

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='CEverettKoop' timestamp='1283888704' post='2445605']
In response to the complaints of letting our allies have some of fun here, let me speak down to Earth, in a language that everybody here can easily understand, and give an example.

You throw a house party. You have a couple of your closest friends and maybe a couple people they know over. There's a couple cases of beer and some bags of chips, a decent stereo, nothing too fancy. You just plan to chill out, maybe play some games or something along the like. Nothing big, nothing memorable.

But you see that your neighbors are home, neighbors that you like, and they want to party too. It just so happens that these neighbors each have something to bring to the table. Like the guy who has a full DJ rig and is itching to perform. Or James, who's big into microbrewing and has whipped up some new samples that he's just dying to get some feedback on. How about the girls down the road, who haven't had a good time in months? And the Ramirez's? Best jerk chicken in the state and they've got a grill that goes on for miles.

See, now it's a block party. And let me tell you with 100% sincerity, honesty, and truth, that a block party is a hell of a lot better than a house party.

But the problem is that block parties are quite rare. Sure, you can try and organize one but trying to coordinate everyone's schedule and things come up and it never quite comes together. So when you get the opportunity to throw down with all your friends, you need to seize that opportunity for all it's worth.

I do hope this clears it up for everyone. tl;dr? It's good to have friends.
[/quote]

You forgot to add a few facts in your metaphor. The GOONS started the party by breaking into an area that didn't belong to you or them and causing a great deal of damage, some of it totally unnecessary (i.e. nukes) for what they claimed they were breaking in for. Then the people who own the area went and messed up the GOONS block to see how they liked it and either the GOONS invited you or you invited yourself and a few of the GOONS and you went back over to UOKMB's "block", had the lights turned off because you "know people" and they don't (i.e. sanction ) so that it would be more difficult for them to attempt to evict you (as if you couldn't wreck their place with the lights on just fine) and then proceeded to party over at UOKMB's when they never brought the party to your place first.

Edited September 7, 2010 by White Chocolate

[thekirbyfake]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283893248' post='2445679']
Apparently the opposite is true, they band together and revolt, much more interesting, no?
[/quote]
I think we can all agree that we're revolting

[Alterego]

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1283892563' post='2445667']
http://forums.cybern...dpost&p=2443683

So if this is a truthful statement what does this mean? It means they indeed intended to go nuclear rogue from the start.
[/quote]
The only rogue was the GOONS raider who nuked. This is blowback. They are not rogues but retaliating and using the karma remnants time scale of anything in long past history can be used.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283893248' post='2445679']
Apparently the opposite is true, they band together and revolt, much more interesting, no?
[/quote]
8 out of how many hundred?

Edited September 7, 2010 by Alterego

[Delector]

GOONS! You declared war on a 2men alliance first and now you need help with this 8 guys? Come on, this is ridiculous! Do you want to request for help at Mostly Harmless and NPO, too?
What´s wrong with you?

[Karolina]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1283891771' post='2445654']
And you dont realise how to use sarcasm on the internet
[/quote]
Really? O.K. then.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Raider' timestamp='1283892563' post='2445667']
If they hold chosen another alliance would there be the same level of support for them? I don't think so. Some people just wanna is us get hit.
[/quote]

If exactly the same thing happened but it was done by an alliance other than the GOONS, yes. In fact, it might actually be worse for another alliance. Most people are use to the idea that GOONS act like GOONS.

Regarding your point about their intent, they stated they built up to attack GOONS because of the attack on them by a member of GOONS previous which involved the use of a nuke.

Different AA's build up with the hope of getting revenge for past actions all the time. The difference here is that they followed through. I'm not saying GOONs shouldn't have responded. That's to be expected. I think that bringing in other alliances was excessive and so was the sanction.

If you're going to have a policy that allows tech raids, from time to time expect that to upset people enough to attack in return - during the tech raid and/or after and build as needed taking that into account.

Edited September 7, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1283893631' post='2445687']
The only rogue was the GOONS raider who nuked.
[/quote]
Say what you will about the morality of using unaligned as nuclear testing grounds but our member was not a rogue, we have no set policy about using nukes in tech raiding, though we generally discourage it.