The Evidence Is Clear, At Least To Me

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1281465990' post='2409978']I'm so glad we have this thread to further discuss what is already under debate in Ragnarok's Declaration of War.[/quote] Splitting threads to discuss a single element or topic in a thread is common in internet forums.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1281451751' post='2409647']Launching attacks probably isn't very bright, but I can't see calling him a rogue. TENE had apparently told him they were going to attack, and they were spying defcon.[/quote]

Sedrick also threatened to attack TENE before any spy attempts by either side took place. An argument occurred and both sides hurled threats ... if we're using your logic and TENE [b]did[/b] spy first, then we'd consider it self defense too? Pre-emptive defense maybe?

I dunno, you guys are all the ones e-lawyering this to death. I will let you get back to it ...

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1281466102' post='2409981']
Splitting threads to discuss a single element or topic in a thread is common in internet forums.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it a good thing. :/

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281466311' post='2409986']That doesn't make it a good thing. :/[/quote]As a splitter I'm inclined to disagree, everything on the internet needs to be split into more topics.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Generalissimo

[wickedj]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1281465990' post='2409978']
I'm so glad we have this thread to further discuss what is already under debate in Ragnarok's Declaration of War.
[/quote]
i for one believe Fernando should post more stupid threads

[Earogema]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281465709' post='2409971']
The "attacking back" argument would be valid if he actually attacked the nation that spied on him and not two uninvolved nations.

If you're unaligned and are tech raided you fight back against the nation who attacked you not the entire alliance, doing so is roguery. Same goes with spying.
[/quote]
He did in fact attack the guy who spied on him on the 6th. They already peaced out and deleted the war. I believe I posted that in this thread earlier.

That doesn't explain why he attacked like 4 other guys, but I'm just sayin'.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Earogema

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1281470997' post='2410084']
He did in fact attack the guy who spied on him on the 6th. They already peaced out and deleted the war. I believe I posted that in this thread earlier.

That doesn't explain why he attacked like 4 other guys, but I'm just sayin'.
[/quote]

It was stated in NSO's public channel right before they recruited him that he attacked six TENE members.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281471112' post='2410087']
It was stated in NSO's public channel right before they recruited him that he attacked six TENE members.
[/quote]
The TENE thread said 5-6, but yeah, somewhere around that number.

[Mixoux]

I sure hope NSO invests this much time in [i]all[/i] nation to nation disuputes, as this sort of stuff happens all the time and yet every other alliance simply deals with it in a sane fashion.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281396986' post='2408604']
Don't matter who made it. All I ask is for people to read it. You are all afraid to see and realize Hoo/RoK/Allies are wrong here and they are wrong because they believed the lies TENE told them.
[/quote]
Except that you have little credibility and are awful at spinning facts in any direction.

As Chron so eloquently said, just stop. You aren't helping your cause.

[Cobalt]

I was going to make a response to this, but instead I made this:

[img]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7074/warinanutshell.gif[/img]

[Baldr]

[quote name='Sande' timestamp='1281457014' post='2409762']
OK. Let's assume these events occurred like that. But a nation that is already in a war should not seek for an alliance until it has finished it's wars and other suspicious activities. [/quote]

I'm not sure I agree here. You are unaligned or in a small alliance, and get attacked by a much larger alliance. Once attacked, you have no right to move to an alliance big enough to offer protection? You're only choice is to sit and let the raiders beat on you? This happened recently, with GOONS raiding a small alliance which then joined with another alliance. GOONS didn't like it, but IMO GOONS has no rights to tell any other alliance what they can and can't do.

[quote]Most alliances don't let people in when they have unfinished wars etc. Therefore Sedrick should not have been allowed to join NSO unless NSO wanted to provoke Ragnarok & Co.[/quote]

I think NSO were foolish to not look into the situation a bit more. And even more foolish to aid him after Hoo told them that if they did, it could would lead to war. They have the right to make that decision, but decisions often have repercussions.

[quote]Also, aiding ANY nation who is fighting a war against another alliance is considered an act of war as far as I know. Otherwise if Alliance A is fighting Alliance B and alliance C aids Alliance A, Alliance B would not have a reason to attack Alliance B. Does not work this way.[/quote]

Here, I agree. Aiding any nation in war runs that risk. Doing it after being *told* that it would cause a problem is just begging for trouble.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281465709' post='2409971']
The "attacking back" argument would be valid if he actually attacked the nation that spied on him and not two uninvolved nations.
[/quote]
By your logic then RoK and it's allies should have only attacked those in NSO that committed the act of war of sending aid.
Earogema stated that the war on the guy that actually spied him peaced out and was deleted. Why Sedrick chose to escalate by attacking more is unknown. Maybe he was successfully unknowned spied and he simply chose who he felt were good targets. Similar to how RoK and allies chose the whole of NSO as good targets to make war for the aid that was sent to Sedrick.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281466187' post='2409982']
Sedrick also threatened to attack TENE before any spy attempts by either side took place. An argument occurred and both sides hurled threats ... if we're using your logic and TENE [b]did[/b] spy first, then we'd consider it self defense too? Pre-emptive defense maybe?

I dunno, you guys are all the ones e-lawyering this to death. I will let you get back to it ...
[/quote]
Do you or TENE have logs or messages to prove this? I don't doubt it though. Sedrick's departure from TENE is obviously not on good terms so I'm sure he was pissed and said things. But words alone don't call for aggression against him.

The main problem is at least to my knowledge that Sedrick didn't mention he still owed TENE. Had he mentioned it then this would be a completely different story. We could have paid his debts or worked out some arrangement with TENE. I don't know if anyone asked MHA what the wars were on their AA. Asking MHA would have got us info on why he was rejected perhaps by TENE having spoken with MHA about it. Then we would have spoken to TENE about settling up Sedrick's debts or letting them deal with him. We made mistakes, but others did as well in rushing to war.

Further, with info about Sedrick owing TENE funds and refusing to pay it...it sucks but I can see the justification for spying and attacking him. Honestly, I ordered a similar attack on a nation for that as well. Sajasabie accepted a former alliance member a few months ago. Xanxus recieved full slots worth of $3mil/50tech deals. Then when he left and didn't want to pay the tech back. I contacted the Sajasabie government (King Ernie) and explained the situation. They stalled and made excuses for him saying he was away and couldn't manage his nation-(Xanxus was reading and responding to my messages, so I figured something was up). I told King Ernie that we would declare on Xanxus and get whatever possible from his nation. I had a guy declare war on him but not attack just so he didn't go into peace mode. He ended up paying the tech.

We all made tons of mistakes here. Most importantly this doesn't happen if we do some research on the guy.

[Chris Pearson]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281396271' post='2408571']
We are at war because we allegedly admitted a rogue nation. But look at the facts and judge for yourselves.

This "rogue" Sedrick applied to NSO and was accepted. Yes, he had offensive wars but why?

[img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2376/spyop.png[/img]

The image above shows that he was spied upon on August 4. An act of war against his nation.

He uses this CB of being spied upon to declare war on TENE on August 6th and again on August 7th. See the image below.

[img]http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/14/32/95/80/sedric10.jpg[/img]

How is he a rogue? It is clear that TENE screwed up, couldn't handle him, and went to RoK for help. TENE made the first act of war.

Hoo and RoK have made a mistake. They are taking Sedrick's attacks as being unjustified. Hoo/RoK/Allies, you are wrong.

Sedrick applied to MHA and MHA rejects Sedrick why? Because TENE lies to them and tells MHA that Sedrick attacked them unprovoked? Sedrick was simply defending his nation as any ruler here would do.

TENE is at fault here.

I do not blame RoK. RoK should blame TENE. TENE should own up to their lies.

Discuss.
[/quote]


The facts you presented!? Do you even read anything you bloody !@#$%^&. When Sed was spied he was MHA. Not TENE. The fact is while in TENE he committed acts of war and treachery. Which you clearly don't post, cause well why would you give the gun to your own execution? The only ones still trying to defend NSO is well NSO.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='PearChris' timestamp='1281477376' post='2410212']
The facts you presented!? Do you even read anything you bloody !@#$%^&. When Sed was spied he was MHA. Not TENE. The fact is while in TENE he committed acts of war and treachery. Which you clearly don't post, cause well why would you give the gun to your own execution? The only ones still trying to defend NSO is well NSO.
[/quote]
DO YOU EVEN READ?

If you read the post above yours you'd see. I started of with some info. People have added to it. My position has evolved. Read the post above yours.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fernando12

[Tautology]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281477607' post='2410217']
My position has evolved.[/quote]
Next time I get it wrong and get called out on it, I'm going to try that line.

[Cobalt]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281477607' post='2410217']
My position has evolved.
[/quote]

Evolution; no longer just for lifeforms and pokemon.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281477607' post='2410217']
DO YOU EVEN READ?

If you read the post above yours you'd see. I started of with some info. People have added to it. My position has evolved. Read the post above yours.
[/quote]

World: You are wrong.
NSO: WE ARE NOT WRONG AND IT IS BECAUSE OF X.
World: X is laughably obtuse.
NSO: MY POSITION HAS EVOLVED WE ARE NOT WRONG BECAUSE OF Y.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1281475795' post='2410182']
I was going to make a response to this, but instead I made this:

[img]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7074/warinanutshell.gif[/img]
[/quote]

That is truly awful. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Chris Pearson]

Sorry, I posted that before I read. Forgive my insolence. I've just got tired of people saying that. When they don't truly know how it all started.

[Smooth]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1281475795' post='2410182']
I was going to make a response to this, but instead I made this:[img]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7074/warinanutshell.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Sums up the war quite nicely. GG, sir.


[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281477607' post='2410217']
DO YOU EVEN READ?If you read the post above yours you'd see. I started of with some info. People have added to it. My position has evolved. Read the post above yours.
[/quote]

My position has evolved that this post speaks for itself.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281479595' post='2410277']
World: You are wrong.
NSO: WE ARE NOT WRONG AND IT IS BECAUSE OF X.
World: X is laughably obtuse.
NSO: MY POSITION HAS EVOLVED WE ARE NOT WRONG BECAUSE OF Y.
[/quote]
What? Seriously What?

I'm pretty sure in post 88 I stated we are wrong in the way we went about things.

What are you reading or not reading. Read post 88.

Now, whether our government leaders will view things as I stated in that post...that's for them to decide and you all to talk to them about.

[Rongue]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1281452964' post='2409667']
One should not have to prove that someone isn't a rogue, it should be proven that they are rogues. The fact that RoK's evidence on this is skeptical and full of holes is still under debate.
[/quote]
You missed what I said.
It no longer matters if he was a rogue or not, at the time both sides believed him to be a rogue, and NSO aided him and thought nothing of the backlash.
This war is valid.
Again let me spell it out for you, NSO believed he was a rogue and in the chat log did not deny it but still aided him anyways.
NSO 100% deserves to have thier butts kicked for this.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Rongue' timestamp='1281480299' post='2410302']
You missed what I said.
It no longer matters if he was a rogue or not, at the time both sides believed him to be a rogue, and NSO aided him and thought nothing of the backlash.
This war is valid.
Again let me spell it out for you, NSO believed he was a rogue and in the chat log did not deny it but still aided him anyways.
NSO 100% deserves to have thier butts kicked for this.
[/quote]
I can agree in some part with this. Yesterday afternoon when I started gathering some info...I thought he was a rogue and then by the chain of events I put together in my OP concluded that he wasn't. People filled in what I was missing about owed funds/tech. Sedrick in my opinion is not a rogue, but a member that left TENE and refused to repay tech deals or aid to grow his nation. Refusing to repay opens him up for attack. RoK has a CB, we aided Sedrick. The war is valid. But worth going to war over? Debatable and it depends on where your political leanings are.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fernando12

[Chris Pearson]

Well, He is rogue. He attacked many people unrelated to the spy attempt, I was also attacked and put into Anarchy. I had nothing to do with it, so that alone makes him rogue.