The Evidence Is Clear, At Least To Me

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1281398004' post='2408641']
Actually the CB they are "pushing" is that you committed an act of war against them during negotiations, which is pretty clear. If you hadn't aided that guy [i]in the middle of negotiations[/i] you probably could've worked something out, then aided him after it was resolved. But no, you guys decided to call Rok's bluff. Just they weren't bluffing.

It's like how the NPO attacked during negotiations in Karma. They might've been able to work something out over the OV spying nonsense but they decided to provoke both the people they were negotiating with and the people running the negotiations.

And we all know how that turned out.
[/quote]

Actually RoK attacking NSO in the middle of negotiations along with 3 other alliances is like how NPO attacked during negotiations. Aiding a rogue, while considered an act of war is not the same as an aggressive attack. Those are two quite distinct things though both are typically considered an act of war.

[Viluin]

[quote name='PearChris' timestamp='1281477376' post='2410212']
The fact is while in TENE he committed acts of war and treachery.
[/quote]

Do you have proof of these "facts"?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Viluin

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281396774' post='2408592']
This war also requires more awful forum posters.
[/quote]
Then go call up some of your friends. Oh wait...

He justly declared war on TENE and they went crying to mommy, end of story. If he really was a rogue then reps and ZI would be just, but he's not. He got pissed off because TENE spied on him. What would you have done?

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Caleb279' timestamp='1281489977' post='2410509']
Then go call up some of your friends. Oh wait...

He justly declared war on TENE and they went crying to mommy, end of story. If he really was a rogue then reps and ZI would be just, but he's not. He got pissed off because TENE spied on him. What would you have done?
[/quote]

He rage quit, and declared on 6 of their nations. He is a rogue. He tried hiding in MHA. He posed as a guy from FARK to get reps. He realized that we were called in on sat when TENE requested. He ran to NSO.

He is a rogue.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Acca Dacca

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281491560' post='2410536']
He rage quit, and declared on 6 of their nations. He is a rogue. He tried hiding in MHA. He posed as a guy from FARK to get reps. He realized that we were called in on sat when TENE requested. He ran to NSO.

He is a rogue.
[/quote]
NSO has proof, you don't. I never heard anything about him posing as a guy from Fark anyway.

He is not a rogue.

[Acca Dacca]

proof of what?

[TheImportantOne]

Why didn't Sedrick declare war on the nation that spied on him?

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='TheImportantOne' timestamp='1281496195' post='2410606']
Why didn't Sedrick declare war on the nation that spied on him?
[/quote]

He did.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281465709' post='2409971']
The "attacking back" argument would be valid if he actually attacked the nation that spied on him and not two uninvolved nations.
[/quote]
The two "uninvolved" nations were in the same alliance as the nation that did the spying. It's pretty much universally accepted that when a member of an alliance commits an act of war, the whole alliance can be held responsible for it.

If you're not going to accept that idea, then well, there's a problem with the CB.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281491560' post='2410536']
He posed as a guy from FARK to get reps. He realized that we were called in on sat when TENE requested.
[/quote]
Prove it.

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281496016' post='2410602']
proof of what?
[/quote]
Posing from Fark, that the wars were not justified.
You said yourself he declared war on the TENE nation that spied on him. He got pissed and declared war a few more times too. Most nations would've done the same thing. Especially in an irrelevant micro like that.

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281496753' post='2410627']
The two "uninvolved" nations were in the same alliance as the nation that did the spying. It's pretty much universally accepted that when a member of an alliance commits an act of war, the whole alliance can be held responsible for it.

[b]If you're not going to accept that idea, then well, there's a problem with the CB.[/b]
[/quote]

Thats win.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Caleb279

[Acca Dacca]

The ban hostnames: [color=red]REDACTED[/color] ... 1st host name is the Fark guy normally (he is rarely on IRC) , the second of course is Sedrick ... ManwithplanX[FARK] None of our members use the generic mibbit names, no and afaik none of our members have been recorded under that second hostmask.

mib_y74d9a was the nick used by sedrick to attempt to get reps from TENE.

[22:29] <sedrick> im scared
[22:29] <sedrick> nervouse
[22:30] <sedrick> imight take a big hit tonight
[22:30] <@Rebel_Virginia> You are under NSO protection.
[22:30] <sedrick> im preparin as much as possible

if you REALLY need more, query me.

[quote]You said yourself he declared war on the TENE nation that spied on him. He got pissed and declared war a few more times too. Most nations would've done the same thing. Especially in an irrelevant micro like that. [/quote]

That makes him a rogue. TENE is 5 times bigger than your alliance.

Edited August 11, 2010 by The Eye
Modedit: No hostmasks please

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281498066' post='2410649']
The ban hostnames: 1CE04014.ok.ok.cox.net and FF77DC48.ok.ok.cox.net ... 1st host name is the Fark guy normally (he is rarely on IRC) , the second of course is Sedrick ... ManwithplanX[FARK] None of our members use the generic mibbit names, no and afaik none of our members have been recorded under that second hostmask.

mib_y74d9a was the nick used by sedrick to attempt to get reps from TENE.

[22:29] <sedrick> im scared
[22:29] <sedrick> nervouse
[22:30] <sedrick> imight take a big hit tonight
[22:30] <@Rebel_Virginia> You are under NSO protection.
[22:30] <sedrick> im preparin as much as possible

if you REALLY need more, query me.



That makes him a rogue. TENE is 5 times bigger than your alliance.
[/quote]
Well theres my proof I guess. But define rogue...haha, just kidding.

(BTW: Midgaard is a division of Asgaard, same alliance)

[Acca Dacca]

Really? Not bad. Ragnarok was going to do that, but it makes it easier for me to coup Hoo.

[Chris Pearson]

[quote name='Viluin' timestamp='1281489020' post='2410484']
Do you have proof of these "facts"?
[/quote]

Threating an ally with attack is a act of treachery. And its been proven that in the Very start of the fight he threatened the person who he assumed was spying him ( They both thought each other were spying each other ) Then the next thing you know he is marching out of the alliance and starting wars.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281491560' post='2410536']
He rage quit, and declared on 6 of their nations. He is a rogue. He tried hiding in MHA. He posed as a guy from FARK to get reps. He realized that we were called in on sat when TENE requested. He ran to NSO.

He is a rogue.
[/quote]

The reason I give zero credence to your entire post is the fact that you are claiming he declared on 6 nations. You can only declare on 3, which means you are making at least *some* of your "evidence" up. That makes all of it very suspect.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1281503300' post='2410822']
The reason I give zero credence to your entire post is the fact that you are claiming he declared on 6 nations. You can only declare on 3, which means you are making at least *some* of your "evidence" up. That makes all of it very suspect.
[/quote]

He declared, then peaced out, declared peaced out. All the while saying he was applying to another alliance ex. MHA, NPO, NSO

[21:30] <mib_y74d9a> i anarchy 6 of them

Edited August 11, 2010 by Acca Dacca

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281498385' post='2410664']
Really? Not bad. Ragnarok was going to do that, but it makes it easier for me to coup Hoo.
[/quote]
Wait...what?

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Caleb279' timestamp='1281510611' post='2410949']
Wait...what?
[/quote]

Seperating alliances into divisions under different AAs.

It's also a joke

[Caleb279]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281510693' post='2410950']
Seperating alliances into divisions under different AAs.

It's also a joke
[/quote]
Aha, I get it. /facepalm

Its clear its time for me to get some sleep...

[Rongue]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281481113' post='2410318']
I can agree in some part with this. Yesterday afternoon when I started gathering some info...I thought he was a rogue and then by the chain of events I put together in my OP concluded that he wasn't. People filled in what I was missing about owed funds/tech. Sedrick in my opinion is not a rogue, but a member that left TENE and refused to repay tech deals or aid to grow his nation. Refusing to repay opens him up for attack. RoK has a CB, we aided Sedrick. The war is valid. But worth going to war over? Debatable and it depends on where your political leanings are.
[/quote]
Ah glad to see you are not hard headed.
I personaly think this is worth going to war over.
Like I said at the time he was thought to be a rogue, and he was aided when both sides believed this. It was clearly said it was an act of war meaning RoK would declare.
Maybe damages wise the whole thing is not worth a war but heft basicaly spat in the face of RoK by letting seddrick have aid anyways.
So damages wise it is not worth war, but it was insulting to say the least. Pride is not the reason either, if an alliance allows insults like that to happen then more will follow.

By the way I did not know some of what you said, thanks.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281481113' post='2410318']
I can agree in some part with this. Yesterday afternoon when I started gathering some info...I thought he was a rogue and then by the chain of events I put together in my OP concluded that he wasn't. People filled in what I was missing about owed funds/tech. Sedrick in my opinion is not a rogue, but a member that left TENE and refused to repay tech deals or aid to grow his nation. Refusing to repay opens him up for attack. RoK has a CB, we aided Sedrick. The war is valid. But worth going to war over? Debatable and it depends on where your political leanings are.
[/quote]

It happens to the best of us, thinking one thing and then finding out another.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Rongue' timestamp='1281550876' post='2411348']
Ah glad to see you are not hard headed.
I personaly think this is worth going to war over.
Like I said at the time he was thought to be a rogue, and he was aided when both sides believed this. It was clearly said it was an act of war meaning RoK would declare.
Maybe damages wise the whole thing is not worth a war but heft basicaly spat in the face of RoK by letting seddrick have aid anyways.
So damages wise it is not worth war, but it was insulting to say the least. Pride is not the reason either, if an alliance allows insults like that to happen then more will follow.

By the way I did not know some of what you said, thanks.
[/quote]

Interestingly enough though the same can be said for NSO, that if they let RoK tell them what to do others would soon follow.
Like I said somewhere else, it was a lose/lose situation for NSO.

[Rongue]

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281562370' post='2411558']
Interestingly enough though the same can be said for NSO, that if they let RoK tell them what to do others would soon follow.
Like I said somewhere else, it was a lose/lose situation for NSO.
[/quote]
Where did you get that idea?
NSO thought he was a rogue, they could have just handed him over because it would have been the right thing to do. In that situation they could not lose, hell no one besides RoK would have known.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Rongue' timestamp='1281571733' post='2411768']
Where did you get that idea?
NSO thought he was a rogue, they could have just handed him over because it would have been the right thing to do. In that situation they could not lose, hell no one besides RoK would have known.
[/quote]

NSO has consistently stated they did not think he was a rogue, that they saw evidence that he was spied on, and counter attacked.
If NSO let him go without some effort to defend him it would have shown that they gave in to pressure somewhat easily.
If NSO defended him.. well we see how that turned out.

SO you get to choose, lose your respect or lose your NS. Sounds like lose/lose to me (except war is kinda fun so lose/draw imo)