The Evidence Is Clear, At Least To Me

[Schad]

[quote name='VeritasK' timestamp='1281399105' post='2408675']
It is my understanding that at that time Sedrick had declared war on Adzzz. The war was Peaced out and deleted, but the Spy Operation remained.
[/quote]

Any chance that Adzzz still has one or more of the messages from that war? He's still in anarchy so it would definitely appear that he was in a fight, but the 'war declared' message would (thankfully) put this argument to bed.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1281399415' post='2408683']
Any chance that Adzzz still has one or more of the messages from that war? He's still in anarchy so it would definitely appear that he was in a fight, but the 'war declared' message would (thankfully) put this argument to bed.
[/quote]
If we assume the war was near the start of the spy date, (which is just an assumption of course) then he should still have the messages (unless he deletes them for some odd reason).

Hell, just one message of war on the 3rd would show that war existed prior to the spying. He should still have that. Granted, only the WAR DECLARED message could show who the true aggressor is, but I think it would be fairly obvious.

[Ogaden]

Your tears, they are delicious, hold on let me get a shot glass
[img]http://www.abtirsi.com/delicioustears.png[/img]

[Earogema]

Actually a closer look shows that he was still a member of TENE on the day of the spy operation. He finished a tech deal with Rok on the 4th while still a member of TENE, which was the same day of the spy operation. At 3 P.M. he was a member of TENE. At 7 P.M. he was MHA and had been spied on.

So the war probably happened on the 4th. All one would need is the war declared message on the 4th before the time of 7 P.M. server time.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=410982&Extended=1 - Proof of course.

There is also the fact that he will not be completing his other tech deal that he started on the 2nd with Rok.

The only thing that could refute that would be the "Unknown Sender" spy message but he'd somehow have to prove that was TENE.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Earogema

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281398770' post='2408662']
But if an unaligned nation decides to respond to provocation by starting aggressive wars against the alliance that provokes it, it becomes a rogue nation.
[/quote]
It becomes a rogue nation? Sedrick appears to have been in the process of joining an alliance. Tried MHA, lies were told about him. He joins NSO, we accept him. Should we have? Its debatable. Offensive wars don't necessarily mean offensive. Declaring a nation a rogue that defends itself from attacks by attacking nations of alliance members that attacked it is a horrible precedent.

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1281398846' post='2408668']
You seem to be confused as to why this war started exactly. Let's use your argument and help you figure it out. If, as you say, Sedrick is justified in his attacks then so be it. His wars and the spying clearly began before he was accepted into the NSO (check the AA obviously). As such, any wars with his nation are strictly between Sedrick, TENE, and their protector RoK. Whether you believe RoK is justified in defending TENE or not is irrelevant because they clearly believed they were.

It boils down to this. Is TENE responsible for escalating a conflict with Sedrick? Based on the evidence presented in the OP, yes. Is the NSO responsible for escalating a conflict with RoK? Based on the evidence in RoK's DoW, yes. That is why this war is going on and that is why the NSO is not receiving much vocal support in this war. Because the direct actions of the NSO, actions whose consequences were made very clear, initiated this war.
[/quote]
We see it different. I respect both your opinions and how you laid it out. But none of this happens without TENE's lies. TENE in effect lied to keep a nation from seeking out security in an alliance. If that is not aggressive behavior then what is. Aiding Sedrick after/during the talk with Hoo was terrible. But I see no wrong in accepting Sedrick since he clearly was not a rogue and was simply seeking security for his nation.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281400492' post='2408716']
It becomes a rogue nation? Sedrick appears to have been in the process of joining an alliance. Tried MHA, lies were told about him. He joins NSO, we accept him. Should we have? Its debatable. Offensive wars don't necessarily mean offensive. Declaring a nation a rogue that defends itself from attacks by attacking nations of alliance members that attacked it is a horrible precedent.


We see it different. I respect both your opinions and how you laid it out. But none of this happens without TENE's lies. TENE in effect lied to keep a nation from seeking out security in an alliance. If that is not aggressive behavior then what is. Aiding Sedrick after/during the talk with Hoo was terrible. But I see no wrong in accepting Sedrick since he clearly was not a rogue and was simply seeking security for his nation.
[/quote]
Let us not jump to conclusions. The nation that spied on Sedrick is in anarchy, and it's obvious that if any war existed it was started on the 4th. Since the earliest time that the anarchy could be removed was on the 7th, this means 2 things:
1. The nation in question has not changed the status of its government.
2. The nation was put back into anarchy after the original anarchy.

adzzz had to have been at war at some point. Unless he self anarchied without being at war, but that wouldn't explain why he is in Defcon 1 (unless we assume he's a huge idiot, which I don't think we can assume).

All his wars are cleared though, so we don't know who was at war with him without the message.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Earogema

[King Death II]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281400492' post='2408716']
It becomes a rogue nation? Sedrick appears to have been in the process of joining an alliance. Tried MHA, lies were told about him. He joins NSO, we accept him. Should we have? Its debatable. Offensive wars don't necessarily mean offensive. Declaring a nation a rogue that defends itself from attacks by attacking nations of alliance members that attacked it is a horrible precedent.


We see it different. I respect both your opinions and how you laid it out. But none of this happens without TENE's lies. TENE in effect lied to keep a nation from seeking out security in an alliance. If that is not aggressive behavior then what is. [size="5"]Aiding Sedrick after/during the talk with Hoo was terrible. [/size] But I see no wrong in accepting Sedrick since he clearly was not a rogue and was simply seeking security for his nation.
[/quote]

DING DING DING! We have a winner! This is why the war started, Hoo gave a warning that aid = war and you guys aided so now there is war.

Edited August 10, 2010 by King Death II

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1281400068' post='2408703']
Actually a closer look shows that he was still a member of TENE on the day of the spy operation. He finished a tech deal with Rok on the 4th while still a member of TENE, which was the same day of the spy operation. At 3 P.M. he was a member of TENE. At 7 P.M. he was MHA and had been spied on.

So the war probably happened on the 4th. All one would need is the war declared message on the 4th before the time of 7 P.M. server time.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=410982&Extended=1 - Proof of course.

There is also the fact that he will not be completing his other tech deal that he started on the 2nd with Rok.

The only thing that could refute that would be the "Unknown Sender" spy message but he'd somehow have to prove that was TENE.
[/quote]
Where is the proof that Sedrick spied first? I don't know whether he did or didn't have an earlier war, I'll take your word for it.

What was Sedrick's reason for leaving TENE? Did he refuse to repay deals or aid given? What brought the hostility towards him or from him towards TENE? These are things we don't know so we defend our member or at least state that he will be protected until proven otherwise. Only thing that screw us is that damn $6mil

[Schad]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281401445' post='2408738']
Where is the proof that Sedrick spied first? I don't know whether he did or didn't have an earlier war, I'll take your word for it.

What was Sedrick's reason for leaving TENE? Did he refuse to repay deals or aid given? What brought the hostility towards him or from him towards TENE? These are things we don't know so we defend our member or at least state that he will be protected until proven otherwise. Only thing that screw us is that damn $6mil
[/quote]

...so what you're saying is that the evidence is not at all clear?

[Earogema]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281401445' post='2408738']
Where is the proof that Sedrick spied first? I don't know whether he did or didn't have an earlier war, I'll take your word for it.

What was Sedrick's reason for leaving TENE? Did he refuse to repay deals or aid given? What brought the hostility towards him or from him towards TENE? These are things we don't know so we defend our member or at least state that he will be protected until proven otherwise. Only thing that screw us is that damn $6mil
[/quote]
I didn't say that Sedrick spied first. That proof as far as I know doesn't exist. I'm saying he attacked first, was peaced out, then deleted the war. His opponent spied on him in retaliation and failed during the war that Sedrick would have started. This is all just my guess of course via what information I have because of the CN info.

I don't know the full story with TENE also, I'm just saying that's part of the timeline that cannot be ignored.

And yeah, I get why you want to protect him, I think you should have just talked to TENE first about it. Granted, if we assume like you do that TENE is going to lie, then that would lead us nowhere.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1281401651' post='2408743']
I didn't say that Sedrick spied first. That proof as far as I know doesn't exist. I'm saying he attacked first, was peaced out, then deleted the war. His opponent spied on him in retaliation and failed during the war that Sedrick would have started. This is all just my guess of course via what information I have because of the CN info.

I don't know the full story with TENE also, I'm just saying that's part of the timeline that cannot be ignored.

And yeah, I get why you want to protect him, I think you should have just talked to TENE first about it. Granted, if we assume like you do that TENE is going to lie, then that would lead us nowhere.
[/quote]
Its clear that there was a rush to accept him or he lied to us to try and get protection for his nation and it was given. I'd still like to know what triggered his split from TENE. If anyone knows feel free to post that info or query me on IRC. I'm sure many would like to know why our nations will burn for this one guy. If Sedrick is right then I'd fight for him, but I don't think anyone on our part or those we are at war with now have done enough to investigate. Or if they have they are doing a damn good job of not saying jack just to keep the war going - talking about both side's lust for stupid wars. This war is clearly falling under pointless.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fernando12

[Thunder Strike]

Another thread with NSO bawwing about how they messed up and presented Rok with a valid CB?

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281402293' post='2408755']
Another thread with NSO bawwing about how they messed up and presented Rok with a valid CB?
[/quote]
No, if you'd read its more a discussion trying to figure out everything that happened. RoK has a CB, its in Sedrick's FA slots.

BTW, thanks Earogema for your input.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fernando12

[Earogema]

Welp, new information has come to light.

[quote]To: adzzz From: Sedrick Date: 8/6/2010 11:33:20 PM

Subject: War Declared!


Message: War has been declared on you by Sedrick for the following reason: u pushed me[/quote]
This of course means that adzzz spied first, then 2 days later Sedrick declared war. Sedrick was a member of MHA (or was at least applying/ghosting them) at 11:45 so I think it's safe to assume that he was also under the MHA banner at 11:33.

This would mean that adzzz is in anarchy still as a result of those attacks.

So as far as I can tell, NSO is right that the spy attacks did happen first and my assumption that the war was started on the 4th was wrong.

This doesn't mean that the spy attacks were authorized by TENE, but they did in fact happen.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1281402773' post='2408765']
Welp, new information has come to light.


This of course means that adzzz spied first, then 2 days later Sedrick declared war. Sedrick was a member of MHA (or was at least applying/ghosting them) at 11:45 so I think it's safe to assume that he was also under the MHA banner at 11:33.

This would mean that adzzz is in anarchy still as a result of those attacks.

So as far as I can tell, NSO is right that the spy attacks did happen first and my assumption that the war was started on the 4th was wrong.

This doesn't mean that the spy attacks were authorized by TENE, but they did in fact happen.
[/quote]
Thanks for the info. Any idea as to why this happened between Sedrick and TENE?

Did Sedrick post a resignation? Did he leave with debt? Did he refuse to pay debts if he had any at all? Was TENE just mad that they lost a member and spied him?

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fernando12

[Earogema]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281402930' post='2408768']
Thanks for the info. Any idea as to why this happened between Sedrick and TENE?
[/quote]
Not that I know of. I am unable to get on coldfront at this time so somebody else would probably have to ask TENE.

Still, I am a bit shocked to find that this was the case.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Earogema

[Ashoka the Great]

For the love of Admin, stop making new threads about this.

[Jessebelle]

I really think you're just digging for excuses so people will feel sorry for you and maybe come to your side and fight.
The facts were there in black and white. Sedrick went rogue and declared on a TENE nation, TENE came to RoK for help. History follows.
I don't think we wouldn't be protecting TENE if they were lying to us.

Again, this thread is just an attempt to go digging for excuses. Good one, NSO.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Jessebelle' timestamp='1281403330' post='2408781']
I really think you're just digging for excuses so people will feel sorry for you and maybe come to your side and fight.
The facts were there in black and white. Sedrick went rogue and declared on a TENE nation, TENE came to RoK for help. History follows.
I don't think we wouldn't be protecting TENE if they were lying to us.

Again, this thread is just an attempt to go digging for excuses. Good one, NSO.
[/quote]
No Jess, I'm simply looking for the truth now. Did start off with the info I had but evolved along the way.

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281402930' post='2408768']
Thanks for the info. Any idea as to why this happened between Sedrick and TENE?

Did Sedrick post a resignation? Did he leave with debt? Did he refuse to pay debts if he had any at all? Was TENE just mad that they lost a member and spied him?
[/quote]
Questions answered - [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90363"]HERE[/url]

That I know of, Sedrick never mentioned any of what is in that topic nor did we do our part to investigate him apparently.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fernando12

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281398281' post='2408649']
2 wrongs make a right now is what your saying. [u]I'm not excusing aiding the guy when it was questioned.[/u] But the facts clearly show that he was not a rogue against TENE. Sedrick was attacked and defending his nation. TENE lies to MHA so they don't accept him. Then TENE lies to RoK. How many TENE lies is everyone going to put up with?
[/quote]
I'm not saying any of that. This war isn't about what TENE says or what Sedrick says or what either did. This was is about NSO provoking Rok during negotiations over something that is probably really dumb.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1281403789' post='2408801']
I'm not saying any of that. This war isn't about what TENE says or what Sedrick says or what either did. This was is about NSO provoking Rok during negotiations over something that is probably really dumb.
[/quote]
You're right. I posted above you, read that please. Thanks.

[Viluin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281398770' post='2408662']
I'm not really sure why you had to start a new thread on this; there are several threads discussing the start of the war already. But since you did ...

It really doesn't matter at all what prior actions may or may not have justified it, Sendrick [i]still launched aggressive wars against TENE[/i]. Since he was either unaligned or ghosting MHA at the time, that makes him a rogue nation by the standard definition. Whether or not you think he has justification for his actions doesn't change that, and doesn't change the subsequent events or the fact that NSO deliberately chose to provoke RoK by aiding him.

Should TENE have spied on an unaligned nation? Well, perhaps not, but it's a much less egregious piece of 'aggression' than what tech raiders do hundreds of times every day. But if an unaligned nation decides to respond to provocation by starting aggressive wars against the alliance that provokes it, it becomes a rogue nation. You shouldn't help nations which are in aggressive wars and expect the alliance in question to be happy about that, whatever the reasons behind those aggressive wars.

Spying is an 'act of war' like aiding an enemy is: it's a decent reason to start a war if you want one, but it doesn't stop the war from being aggressive if you choose to start it. Ironically, your attempt to justify Sendrick's initial wars actually gives a much better argument in favour of RoK responding to an act of war with war
[/quote]

So when I finally give up peace and attack someone to defend my alliance, they are aggressive wars? I think not. A spy attack is not just any "act of war", it is an attack on a nation. By attacking Sedrick, TENE initiated the fighting. Because of this, us aiding Sedrick is not an act of aggression, but RoK attacking Sedrick for illegitimate reasons while he was under the NSO banner is.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Viluin

[Bob Janova]

[quote]So when I finally give up peace and attack someone to defend my alliance, they are aggressive wars?[/quote]
Nice try at conflating two completely different things there. National wars undertaken because of an ongoing alliance war are not the same thing as wars undertaken as an unaligned nation, when you effectively are your own alliance. NSO is in a defensive war so assuming you come out of PM and hit one of the alliances at war with you, that would not be aggressive, it would be part of the ongoing alliance war. But that has nothing to do with Sedrick starting aggressive wars, because those wars were not part of an ongoing alliance war.

No, spying does not start the war. If I go and spy on some random nation, it doesn't create a state of war between us, and if that nation decides to take it as justification to attack me, I'd expect to get alliance support for my defensive war (as the TENE nations attacked here did).

It's a good effort, I guess, but unfortunately for you the facts aren't really spinnable to NSO's side.

[kriekfreak]

Shahahshhshahahaha, better watch out. Fernando is here to grab your title

[Viluin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281439321' post='2409500']
Nice try at conflating two completely different things there. National wars undertaken because of an ongoing alliance war are not the same thing as wars undertaken as an unaligned nation, when you effectively are your own alliance. NSO is in a defensive war so assuming you come out of PM and hit one of the alliances at war with you, that would not be aggressive, it would be part of the ongoing alliance war. But that has nothing to do with Sedrick starting aggressive wars, because those wars were not part of an ongoing alliance war.

No, spying does not start the war. If I go and spy on some random nation, it doesn't create a state of war between us, and if that nation decides to take it as justification to attack me, I'd expect to get alliance support for my defensive war (as the TENE nations attacked here did).

It's a good effort, I guess, but unfortunately for you the facts aren't really spinnable to NSO's side.
[/quote]

A war of aggression is a war that is waged without the justification of self-defense. A spy attack against your nation is that justification. Especially when you consider the nature of the spy attack, "Infiltrate DEFCON systems", which implies the intention to strike. If I sucker punch you in the face and walk away it does not initiate a fight between us, but I bet you'd start one shortly after that.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Viluin