The Evidence Is Clear, At Least To Me

[Fernando12]

We are at war because we allegedly admitted a rogue nation. But look at the facts and judge for yourselves.

This "rogue" Sedrick applied to NSO and was accepted. Yes, he had offensive wars but why?

[img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2376/spyop.png[/img]

The image above shows that he was spied upon on August 4. An act of war against his nation.

He uses this CB of being spied upon to declare war on TENE on August 6th and again on August 7th. See the image below.

[img]http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/14/32/95/80/sedric10.jpg[/img]

How is he a rogue? It is clear that TENE screwed up, couldn't handle him, and went to RoK for help. TENE made the first act of war.

Hoo and RoK have made a mistake. They are taking Sedrick's attacks as being unjustified. Hoo/RoK/Allies, you are wrong.

Sedrick applied to MHA and MHA rejects Sedrick why? Because TENE lies to them and tells MHA that Sedrick attacked them unprovoked? Sedrick was simply defending his nation as any ruler here would do.

TENE is at fault here.

I do not blame RoK. RoK should blame TENE. TENE should own up to their lies.

Discuss.

[Chickenzilla]

tl;dr
I'll just have to say. nahhhhh

[TehChron]

Stop. For the love of god. We know this. We all know this already. It's not gonna change the situation, its not helping.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Chron

[AirMe]

I can't say what I really want to say because the gods will not allow me.

[Van Hoo III]

This war requires more threads.

[Lord Serbitar]

Quick! Someone make another poll!

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281396618' post='2408584']
This war requires more threads.
[/quote]
It requires you to look into the facts I just presented. If I am wrong then I am wrong, but you should look into it and determine whether or not TENE is telling lies here. You damn well know it's a possibility.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281396716' post='2408589']
It requires you to look into the facts I just presented. If I am wrong then I am wrong, but you should look into it and determine whether or not TENE is telling lies here. You damn well know it's a possibility.
[/quote]


This war also requires more awful forum posters.

[maicke]

Maybe if Rebel Virginia or Corinan made this, people would care.
[i]Maybe[/i]

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281396774' post='2408592']
This war also requires more awful forum posters.
[/quote]
Look at the facts Hoo. You can rip me all you want. But talk to MHA, talk to TENE, talk to anyone and you'll see that stuff don't add up the way TENE has been telling you.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281396774' post='2408592']
This war also requires more awful forum posters.
[/quote]

The good Admin gave us you. What more do we need?

[Fernando12]

[quote name='maicke' timestamp='1281396868' post='2408595']
Maybe if Rebel Virginia or Corinan made this, people would care.
[i]Maybe[/i]
[/quote]
Don't matter who made it. All I ask is for people to read it. You are all afraid to see and realize Hoo/RoK/Allies are wrong here and they are wrong because they believed the lies TENE told them.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1281396893' post='2408598']
The good Admin gave us you. What more do we need?
[/quote]

I take back my <3, Krunk.

[elpadrino]

these things happens constantly in cybernations and it just get resolved with diplomacy, Rok and company just were so fast to attack inmediatly, note that the attack on NSO is more than 6hours before update (no one do that if there is any interest in peace), the reason of the DOW is obviously not the rogue issue Fernando12

Edited August 9, 2010 by elpadrino

[Fernando12]

[quote name='elpadrino' timestamp='1281397127' post='2408613']
the reason of the DOW is obviously not the rogue issue Fernando12
[/quote]
Its the CB they are pushing. All I'm doing is showing everyone how its TENE lies that started all this.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281397388' post='2408620']
Its the CB they are pushing. All I'm doing is showing everyone how its TENE lies that started all this.
[/quote]
Actually the CB they are "pushing" is that you committed an act of war against them during negotiations, which is pretty clear. If you hadn't aided that guy [i]in the middle of negotiations[/i] you probably could've worked something out, then aided him after it was resolved. But no, you guys decided to call Rok's bluff. Just they weren't bluffing.

It's like how the NPO attacked during negotiations in Karma. They might've been able to work something out over the OV spying nonsense but they decided to provoke both the people they were negotiating with and the people running the negotiations.

And we all know how that turned out.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1281398004' post='2408641']
Actually the CB they are "pushing" is that you committed an act of war against them during negotiations, which is pretty clear. If you hadn't aided that guy [i]in the middle of negotiations[/i] you probably could've worked something out, then aided him after it was resolved. But no, you guys decided to call Rok's bluff. Just they weren't bluffing.

[b]It's like how the NPO attacked during negotiations in Karma[/b]. They might've been able to work something out over the OV spying nonsense but they decided to provoke both the people they were negotiating with and the people running the negotiations.

And we all know how that turned out.
[/quote]

Really? That's one of the stupider things I've heard today.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1281396893' post='2408598']
The good Admin gave us you. What more do we need?
[/quote]

Good thing he blessed us with you in case we ever ran low.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1281398004' post='2408641']
Actually the CB they are "pushing" is that you committed an act of war against them during negotiations, which is pretty clear. If you hadn't aided that guy [i]in the middle of negotiations[/i] you probably could've worked something out, then aided him after it was resolved. But no, you guys decided to call Rok's bluff. Just they weren't bluffing.

It's like how the NPO attacked during negotiations in Karma. They might've been able to work something out over the OV spying nonsense but they decided to provoke both the people they were negotiating with and the people running the negotiations.

And we all know how that turned out.
[/quote]
2 wrongs make a right now is what your saying. [u]I'm not excusing aiding the guy when it was questioned.[/u] But the facts clearly show that he was not a rogue against TENE. Sedrick was attacked and defending his nation. TENE lies to MHA so they don't accept him. Then TENE lies to RoK. How many TENE lies is everyone going to put up with?

[D34th]

With evidence or without evidence the NSO was dumb to give RoK an reason to declare war. Now face the consequences of your lack of intelligence.

[Bob Janova]

I'm not really sure why you had to start a new thread on this; there are several threads discussing the start of the war already. But since you did ...

It really doesn't matter at all what prior actions may or may not have justified it, Sendrick [i]still launched aggressive wars against TENE[/i]. Since he was either unaligned or ghosting MHA at the time, that makes him a rogue nation by the standard definition. Whether or not you think he has justification for his actions doesn't change that, and doesn't change the subsequent events or the fact that NSO deliberately chose to provoke RoK by aiding him.

Should TENE have spied on an unaligned nation? Well, perhaps not, but it's a much less egregious piece of 'aggression' than what tech raiders do hundreds of times every day. But if an unaligned nation decides to respond to provocation by starting aggressive wars against the alliance that provokes it, it becomes a rogue nation. You shouldn't help nations which are in aggressive wars and expect the alliance in question to be happy about that, whatever the reasons behind those aggressive wars.

Spying is an 'act of war' like aiding an enemy is: it's a decent reason to start a war if you want one, but it doesn't stop the war from being aggressive if you choose to start it. Ironically, your attempt to justify Sendrick's initial wars actually gives a much better argument in favour of RoK responding to an act of war with war

[Captain Flinders]

You seem to be confused as to why this war started exactly. Let's use your argument and help you figure it out. If, as you say, Sedrick is justified in his attacks then so be it. His wars and the spying clearly began before he was accepted into the NSO (check the AA obviously). As such, any wars with his nation are strictly between Sedrick, TENE, and their protector RoK. Whether you believe RoK is justified in defending TENE or not is irrelevant because they clearly believed they were.

And had the NSO not intervened of their own will (ie. not a trap) the wars would have likely resulted in Sedrick taking a few lumps and going on his way, or paying a few reps and going on his way. Instead, the NSO took it upon themselves to aid a nation clearly at war with RoK and TENE after being told directly not to do so.

It boils down to this. Is TENE responsible for escalating a conflict with Sedrick? Based on the evidence presented in the OP, yes. Is the NSO responsible for escalating a conflict with RoK? Based on the evidence in RoK's DoW, yes. That is why this war is going on and that is why the NSO is not receiving much vocal support in this war. Because the direct actions of the NSO, actions whose consequences were made very clear, initiated this war.

[VeritasK]

It was my understanding that at that time Sedrick had declared war on Adzzz. The war was Peaced out and deleted, but the Spy Operation remained.

Edit: Apparently Adzzz was assured by Sedrick of war, not to sure if it was declared in game, but when he did attack TENE nations, he did put Adzzz into Anarchy.

Edited August 10, 2010 by VeritasK

[Earogema]

This is stupid. Sedrick was a member of TENE. You forgot this part of the timeline. Thus you are ignoring logs of his statements towards members of TENE, as well as whatever money is owed to TENE.

Now, assuming that he is free of guilt as a result of these two things, then the spying would be out of line. Though MHA refused him admission. Whether or not this is due to lying on TENE's part is a question that should be answered. The only possible lie I think they could use was "We didn't spy on him." Whether or not the spying operation was approved by TENE is another question that should be answered.

I cannot think of a SINGLE instance where the rogue was the more truthful party in little squabbles like this. You ALWAYS talk to the alliance that attacked him first because just maybe, they want to get him.

Also the whole "TENE weren't powerful to handle him" is probably true seeing as how they're a protectorate.
[quote name='VeritasK' timestamp='1281399105' post='2408675']
It is my understanding that at that time Sedrick had declared war on Adzzz. The war was Peaced out and deleted, but the Spy Operation remained.
[/quote]
This actually makes more sense since the TENE declaration stated he declared war on 5/6 members of TENE but only 2 of the wars remain.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Earogema

[King Death II]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281398770' post='2408662']
I'm not really sure why you had to start a new thread on this; there are several threads discussing the start of the war already. But since you did ...

It really doesn't matter at all what prior actions may or may not have justified it, Sendrick [i]still launched aggressive wars against TENE[/i]. Since he was either unaligned or ghosting MHA at the time, that makes him a rogue nation by the standard definition. Whether or not you think he has justification for his actions doesn't change that, and doesn't change the subsequent events or the fact that NSO deliberately chose to provoke RoK by aiding him.

Should TENE have spied on an unaligned nation? Well, perhaps not, but it's a much less egregious piece of 'aggression' than what tech raiders do hundreds of times every day. But if an unaligned nation decides to respond to provocation by starting aggressive wars against the alliance that provokes it, it becomes a rogue nation. You shouldn't help nations which are in aggressive wars and expect the alliance in question to be happy about that, whatever the reasons behind those aggressive wars.

Spying is an 'act of war' like aiding an enemy is: it's a decent reason to start a war if you want one, but it doesn't stop the war from being aggressive if you choose to start it. Ironically, your attempt to justify Sendrick's initial wars actually gives a much better argument in favour of RoK responding to an act of war with war
[/quote]

Exactly! Sedrick is at fault for attacking TENE regardless of what happened to cause it. NSO is at fault for accecpting Sedrick when there was a war going on between him and TENE and then when the warning was given by Hoo that aid is an act of war, aiding Sedrick. Those 2 are the reasons for RoK attacking NSO and both NSO and Sedrick are at fault for it and so that is why the war is happening.