A Zoican Perspective on the War

[Augustus Autumn]

Fellow National Rulers,

As I'm sure most of you who visit this exalted forum know, within the last twenty-four hours we've seen the combined forces of The Empire of the New Evolution (TENE), Ragnorok (RoK), The Viridian Entente (VE), The Global Order of Darkness (GOD) and R&R attack the New Sith Order (NSO). As with most wars the alliances involved have (sort of) taken the opportunity to make their stances on their reasons for war as well as attempted to explain their sides. Here is a breakdown on what has been said from where I sit.

Let us begin with statements made by Emperor Feroz of TENE. He states that a prior situation came into existence between his alliance and one Sedrick for whatever reason approximately forty-eight hours ago. TENE made a request of Sedrick to return loaned monies to which Sedrick effectively responded with a flat negative (I'm sure it was a little more colorful than that but that's beside the point). Sedrick departs the alliance in search of a new home and makes a stop by the Mostly Harmless Alliance (MHA). Being the lovely people that they are, MHA goes to TENE and asks for some background information before accepting Sedrick. MHA gets the scoop, decides not to accept Sedrick and he moves along to the NSO. The NSO accepts him as a member without doing a similar background check and thus TENE gets pretty offended. Let's take a moment to dissect this.

1. [b]Should TENE have taken offense?[/b] Yes. Alliances often pride themselves on their own internal accomplishments and, because these internal matters are often the most frequently dealt with by that alliance, there's an expectation that other alliances will see their internal business as being just as important as they. Sedrick stole 6,000,000 credits from TENE and then was accepted by another alliance which didn't bother to validate this offense against their pride.
2. [b]Is this offense the basis for a declaration of war on Sedrick?[/b] Yes. He took something that wasn't his, refused to pay it back and (in the absence of a statement from him) sounds like he acted like a real stick in the mud. While most alliances let this sort of thing go or just invite others to treat them as raid bait, TENE wanted to settle accounts and they were entitled to pursue this. To a point.
3. [b]Is this offense the basis for a declaration of war on the NSO?[/b] No. Just because an alliance doesn't interview you about what your former member did doesn't mean you should be declaring war on them. That's frankly silly, childish and shows some real thick-headedness in regards to how the 'verse works. While we may all think we're very important, others probably disagree and won't treat us in the way we think we're entitled to.

That said, let's move along.

Enter Emperor Van Hoo IV and RoK, TENE's protector. RoK's position on the matter, per their own declaration of war, was that TENE requested slot filling on Sedrick which RoK complied with [i]prior to NSO being notified[/i]. Heft, representing the government of NSO, contacted RoK government in regards to this matter on 08/07/10 in an attempt to resolve the matter. The stance taken within eight minutes of the opening of the posted negotiations was that RoK "did not care" about alternative comprimises - that they saw the resolution to the conflict between themselves and Sedrick only being attained if military recourse were permitted or if Sedrick were able to pay off the debt. Of special note is the statement that any aid the NSO sending to Sedrick would be seen as an act of war.

1. [b]Is the position taken by RoK correct?[/b] As protector of TENE, absolutely. Protector alliances are theoretically expected to do anything and everything to ensure the proper treatment and protection of alliances under their wing. RoK has a long history of offering shelter to emerging powers, has a lot of experience in this sort of thing and knows what they're doing.
2. [b]Was the pursuit of this protection correct?[/b] No. Right from the start the stance taken by Emperor Van Hoo IV comes across as belligerant and condescending. While gunboat diplomacy is a wonderful thing, it also is only conducive to ultimatums. In essence the stance taken by RoK government [i]by their own admission through posting the logs[/i] was that the only resolution to the conflict was through an accepted member of the NSO being attacked/fined while the rest of the alliance did nothing to interfere except through verbal/written means.
3. [b]Was the aid-prevention stance correct?[/b] If peaceful resolution was an aim, no. The NSO was never clearly asked, per the logs shown, the intent behind the aid sent. RoK government made it very clear from the start that it was Sedrick who had to pay off his debts or face military action. No clarification was sought on the purposes of the aid given - for all that anyone knows, the aid was provided so that Sedrick could turn around and offer it himself, thus fulfilling TENE/RoK demands and ending the escalation. Granted, NSO never offered this explaination but that it was never entertained speaks somewhat poorly toward exhausting other options for peace.

Throughout this buildup, NSO had several opportunities to take a different road. They would have been fully within their rights to eject Sedrick once his previous acts became known, which they did not. They could have stood by and refused to intervene, in essence declaring Sedrick a ghost, which they did not. They could have refused to aid Sedrick and provoke the situation, which they did not.

1. [b]Was the NSO correct to accept Sedrick?[/b] Yes. Alliances can accept whomever they want. It's really as simple as that.
2. [b]Did the NSO act to diffuse the situation?[/b] Yes and no. Heft is clearly shown attempting to reasonably attempt to end the escalation. At the same time, orders were officially issued within the alliance for Sedrick to be aided in the face of Emperor Van Hoo IV's declaration of how that act would be perceived. It frankly looks like one hand did not know what the other was doing.

There we go. All three major players made some mistakes but were also correct in their conduct in some fashion. Of course, this branches into the larger issue of whether this was a set-up. That's an issue I can't really comment on with any authority since the war hasn't expanded at this time. Of course, we can look at the circumstantial data.

1. [b]Stance Taken:[/b] RoK's tone in it's negotiations is hostile, plain and simple. Ultimatums are being clearly given, not comprimises.
2. [b]Timeline:[/b] The entire affair took place over forty-eight hours. From what I recall, it takes time to organize a general offensive and get one alliance onto a war footing. To do it with five takes even more effort. To make this happen in two days indicates either five very efficient alliances or a pre-existing contingency.

Those are my observations at this time. As usual, intelligent commentary is welcome.

[SirWilliam]

Another one of these?

[Acca Dacca]

[quote]1. Stance Taken: RoK's tone in it's negotiations is hostile, plain and simple. Ultimatums are being clearly given, not comprimises.
2. Timeline: The entire affair took place over forty-eight hours. From what I recall, it takes time to organize a general offensive and get one alliance onto a war footing. To do it with five takes even more effort. To make this happen in two days indicates either five very efficient alliances or a pre-existing contingency.[/quote]

I'll bite.

Rok had made attempts before hand and were met with noone looking to diffuse the situation, just to say they are right. When our concerns werent met we would be passed on to the next NSO government official who would tell us the same thing. Then Hoo came on, and we ended it.

The entire affair took place in 5-6 hours. TENE asked us for help, we planned to bring it to them, the rogue was accept to NSO, they wanted him to have peace and call it a done deal, we protected our protectorate, they aided a rogue after we said it was an act of war, boom...lets move foward to 4 hours ago. They started moving alot of people to peace mode, we took our( sorry to say, it only takes us 12 hours to generate an actual offensive, but we accept your compliment) nations that were prepared and hit what we could.

I'll move up through your points, if you dont mind.

[quote]1. Was the NSO correct to accept Sedrick? Yes. Alliances can accept whomever they want. It's really as simple as that.[/quote]

Not rogues, they are a little more complicated.

[quote]No clarification was sought on the purposes of the aid given - for all that anyone knows, the aid was provided so that Sedrick could turn around and offer it himself, thus fulfilling TENE/RoK demands and ending the escalation.[/quote]

NSO doesnt DO reps. They make that clear, and that would pretty much be reps. Highly unlikely, and if that was the intent, could have easily been paid directly.

[quote]The NSO accepts him as a member without doing a similar background check and thus TENE gets pretty offended. Let's take a moment to dissect this.[/quote]

The NSO could have checked his recent activity, as they did to see he was spied on, and saw he rogued two members of TENE, one being the day they accepted him. Rogues dont get a clean slate all of the time, especially those who rage quit and then attack the alliance.

You also missed the part where he pretended to be a FARK member to get reps from TENE sent to his nation.

I'm all for the back and forth fun that is OWF, but bring an argument and I'll actually respond.

[zzzptm]

NSO goofed up, and did so with alliances that did not want to suffer fools gladly.

In another day and age, yes, it was NPO and Q that weren't suffering fools gladly, but now SF are in a position to not suffer fools gladly. So they didn't.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1281322201' post='2406130']
SF are in a position to not suffer fools gladly.
[/quote]
But they will gladly see fools suffer.

Me too.

[Biazt]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1281318791' post='2405894']
Another one of these?
[/quote]
Looks like it's about that time again

Edited August 9, 2010 by Biazt

[agafaba]

My perspective on this war is several topics filled with comedy, as well as sleep deprivation.

[King Death II]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281318729' post='2405886']
2. [b]Timeline:[/b] The entire affair took place over forty-eight hours. From what I recall, it takes time to organize a general offensive and get one alliance onto a war footing. To do it with five takes even more effort. To make this happen in two days indicates either five very efficient alliances or a pre-existing contingency.

Those are my observations at this time. As usual, intelligent commentary is welcome.
[/quote]

This one you are dead wrong. The only reason that the 5 alliances went at it because Hoo saw NSO hitting peace mode too fast so he grabbed everyone on IRC including his closet allies and asked them if the members on IRC could attack. RoK rushed it and you cant really do a proper rush with 5 or 10 people on an entire alliance.

[Ashoka the Great]

No no no no no no no.

Just cut it out, already.

[Fernando12]

You make all good points. From what I am gathering though its quite simple. Sedrick lied. We didn't investigate him enough especially since he had existing wars and on the MHA AA. Simply asking MHA what's up with that would lead us to TENE which would lead us to his debts and the postponement of his membership or assisting him in getting debts paid and wars peaced.

I made a topic on this subject. You can see from it to what I just posted above that I have evolved my thinking on this matter.

We are at war, we'll have to deal with it.

As far as you conspiracy theory as to us being set up? Well, shame on us then for falling into a trap if it even is one.

[steodonn]

[quote]2. [b]Timeline:[/b] The entire affair took place over forty-eight hours. From what I recall, it takes time to organize a general offensive and get one alliance onto a war footing. To do it with five takes even more effort. To make this happen in two days indicates either five very efficient alliances or a pre-existing contingency.[/quote]

Actually I think indicates the exact opposite. The alliances werent ready for war witch is why 5 had to go in. Two alliances were even late with the DoW

[Kzoppistan]

I was hoping to see you around again. A nice summery of events. Nothing else to add.

[ChairmanHal]

This gave me the missing piece to the puzzle, thanks.

[Augustus Autumn]

First, my apologies for my lack of response to the replies given - I've had a bit much going on due to certain internal obligations (read: I've been at work a lot). Second, Acca Dacca, thanks for stepping up and doing a point-by-point. Takes some guts, cheers to you.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281321038' post='2406059']
Rok had made attempts before hand and were met with noone looking to diffuse the situation, just to say they are right. When our concerns werent met we would be passed on to the next NSO government official who would tell us the same thing. Then Hoo came on, and we ended it.

The entire affair took place in 5-6 hours. TENE asked us for help, we planned to bring it to them, the rogue was accept to NSO, they wanted him to have peace and call it a done deal, we protected our protectorate, they aided a rogue after we said it was an act of war, boom...lets move foward to 4 hours ago. They started moving alot of people to peace mode, we took our( sorry to say, it only takes us 12 hours to generate an actual offensive, but we accept your compliment) nations that were prepared and hit what we could.
[/quote]

I'll take that at face value. In the construction of the Declaration of War that might have gone a distance toward improving the perceived stance and tone of RoK which is what I'm addressing here (for whatever that's worth). The affair still seems to have moved very quickly when, perhaps, war could have been averted but that's really a debate to be had once this affair is over and done with.


[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281321038' post='2406059']
Not rogues, they are a little more complicated.
[/quote]

The point that I was making was that alliances, as sovereign entities, are welcome to accept whomever they choose. Whether or not that carries consequences is quite another matter, as we've seen here.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281321038' post='2406059']
NSO doesnt DO reps. They make that clear, and that would pretty much be reps. Highly unlikely, and if that was the intent, could have easily been paid directly.
[/quote]

That was never a position taken as demonstrated by Heft during this affair. While I can't speak toward the intent of the NSO, Heft or other members of that alliance I do think that the entire purpose behind the reps, as purported by the logs shown, was never really ascertained clearly. This, in turn, left RoK government looking aggressive and warmongering, something which may or may not be true. Only Emperor VanHoo can really set the record on that one.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281321038' post='2406059']
The NSO could have checked his recent activity, as they did to see he was spied on, and saw he rogued two members of TENE, one being the day they accepted him. Rogues dont get a clean slate all of the time, especially those who rage quit and then attack the alliance.
[/quote]

They could have, and they didn't. I believe I noted that myself. Again, that goes toward consequences.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281321038' post='2406059']
You also missed the part where he pretended to be a FARK member to get reps from TENE sent to his nation.
[/quote]

That wasn't mentioned. Thank you for bringing that up. Certainly, this Sedrick character isn't someone I'll be getting buddy-buddy with anytime soon.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281321038' post='2406059']
I'm all for the back and forth fun that is OWF, but bring an argument and I'll actually respond.
[/quote]

And thank your for doing that. As it were, I'm not looking for an argument so much as a discussion. Emotion isn't really productive. Again, cheers and thanks for the responses given.

[quote name='King Death II' timestamp='1281399804' post='2408697']
This one you are dead wrong. The only reason that the 5 alliances went at it because Hoo saw NSO hitting peace mode too fast so he grabbed everyone on IRC including his closet allies and asked them if the members on IRC could attack. RoK rushed it and you cant really do a proper rush with 5 or 10 people on an entire alliance.
[/quote]

If you're going to do it, do it right? Bringing in five alliances on one, while certainly a practical move, looks like an attempt at a curbstomp no matter how hard you try to paint it as something else or where the truth lies. I took what happened at face value based on the declarations of war made and the movement on the war screens - my apologies for not being better informed as to back-channel happenings. Then again, maybe that goes toward my argument for more general transparency and less reliance on secret IRC channels.

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1281404349' post='2408816']
You make all good points. From what I am gathering though its quite simple. Sedrick lied. We didn't investigate him enough especially since he had existing wars and on the MHA AA. Simply asking MHA what's up with that would lead us to TENE which would lead us to his debts and the postponement of his membership or assisting him in getting debts paid and wars peaced.
[/quote]

I'm not going to fight you on this one. Perhaps there is a lesson that will be taught to the 'verse at the NSO's expense as to the importance of background checks.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1281408280' post='2408912']
I was hoping to see you around again. A nice summery of events. Nothing else to add.
[/quote]

Good to see you too, Kzopp. Stop by TIO's channel sometime when I'm on and we'll catch up.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281454315' post='2409701']
First, my apologies for my lack of response to the replies given - I've had a bit much going on due to certain internal obligations (read: I've been at work a lot). Second, Acca Dacca, thanks for stepping up and doing a point-by-point. Takes some guts, cheers to you.
[/quote]

Thanks, mate. I simply want to actually have a discussion on these issues rather than the unneeded back and forth that has gone on in the several threads made over the same issues.

[quote]I'll take that at face value. In the construction of the Declaration of War that might have gone a distance toward improving the perceived stance and tone of RoK which is what I'm addressing here (for whatever that's worth). The affair still seems to have moved very quickly when, perhaps, war could have been averted but that's really a debate to be had once this affair is over and done with.[/quote]

The DoW was made to show what we declared war over, not what we did to achieve peace. The affair did move quickly, as we were dismissed by several government leaders pointing to another and another. We were fed up with "He isnt a rogue, he is our member. Sorry. Any further concerns can be brought to...". Also, we love a good war, we just dont enjoy the annoyance of having to explain ourselves over and over considering noone reads the responses we made the first time around.



[quote]The point that I was making was that alliances, as sovereign entities, are welcome to accept whomever they choose. Whether or not that carries consequences is quite another matter, as we've seen here.[/quote]

This one had some baggage, and NSO was content with letting it all go. We werent.

[quote]That was never a position taken as demonstrated by Heft during this affair. While I can't speak toward the intent of the NSO, Heft or other members of that alliance I do think that the entire purpose behind the reps, as purported by the logs shown, was never really ascertained clearly. This, in turn, left RoK government looking aggressive and warmongering, something which may or may not be true. Only Emperor VanHoo can really set the record on that one.[/quote]

It is a position that NSO has and will most likely always have. If they do need to pay reps, they will be paid by a loving ally. I would like to know how, a failure to communicate on their part of reperations, the slightest chance it was, makes us look aggressive and warmongering.

[quote]If you're going to do it, do it right? Bringing in five alliances on one, while certainly a practical move, looks like an attempt at a curbstomp no matter how hard you try to paint it as something else or where the truth lies. [/quote]

Trust me, we wanted as many slots as we could for ourselves. We were impressed that in a 12 hour notice, we had 3/4th of our alliance signed in and ready for update. However, around 6, we noticed OPSEC on a certain alliances part that made us rush in. We had a good 60 Rokkers upset their targets were already filled.

[quote]my apologies for not being better informed as to back-channel happenings.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with back channels, it has everything to do with reasoning. We gave it several times.

[Caleb279]

Wonderful perspective. The topics keep getting better and better.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281492680' post='2410546']
Thanks, mate. I simply want to actually have a discussion on these issues rather than the unneeded back and forth that has gone on in the several threads made over the same issues.[/quote]

That's a welcome change from the current trend if there ever was one. Too much screaming, too little chatting.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281492680' post='2410546']
The DoW was made to show what we declared war over, not what we did to achieve peace. The affair did move quickly, as we were dismissed by several government leaders pointing to another and another. We were fed up with "He isnt a rogue, he is our member. Sorry. Any further concerns can be brought to...". Also, we love a good war, we just dont enjoy the annoyance of having to explain ourselves over and over considering noone reads the responses we made the first time around.[/quote]

Maybe that's part of the problem as far as public perception? When I formed the OP I took everything at face value and went from there. Sadly, while some of the rulers within the 'verse are kept up as to the blow-by-blow happenings a lot of persons are not. Taking the extra time to detail the process and complete a full tour of the logic train used to arrive at the declaration of war seems to have been better received in the past. Keeping it short and sweet, while good for time, has perhaps led to the whole "The CB doesn't matter" thought.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281492680' post='2410546']
This one had some baggage, and NSO was content with letting it all go. We werent.[/quote]

Precisely.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281492680' post='2410546']
It is a position that NSO has and will most likely always have. If they do need to pay reps, they will be paid by a loving ally. I would like to know how, a failure to communicate on their part of reperations, the slightest chance it was, makes us look aggressive and warmongering.[/quote]

I think this one is a case of both sides being in the wrong as to execution. The NSO did something provocative which RoK had said would be construed as an act of war. On the other hand, it would have taken fifteen seconds to ensure and gain a statement from the NSO as to the intent behind the reps which would, in turn, have avoided most of the argument surrounding them. It's a matter of execution, not morals/ethics.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281492680' post='2410546']
Trust me, we wanted as many slots as we could for ourselves. We were impressed that in a 12 hour notice, we had 3/4th of our alliance signed in and ready for update. However, around 6, we noticed OPSEC on a certain alliances part that made us rush in. We had a good 60 Rokkers upset their targets were already filled.[/quote]

Eh, not how I would have done it but you make do I guess. The problem is that it looks like an attempt at a stomp or, at the least, some massive overkill. The shame is that the intent isn't what people will beleive, it's the conspiracy theories and whatnot. You do have to admit, it does look pretty bad when you've got a five-on-one going on.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281492680' post='2410546']
It has nothing to do with back channels, it has everything to do with reasoning. We gave it several times.
[/quote]

Certainly, before this thread was made. The major points I'm addressing here are how things look, not what they actually are. Truth is one of those funny things which gets lost and often needs to be proved irrefutably for everyone to accept it (and even then, it will still be denied by someone as a forgery or whatever). If I'd been sitting on an IRC channel, sure, I'd know what was up. The problem is that those persons who tend to be in the know can forget how little everyone else actually does know. I remember being on the other end many times and not getting why someone wasn't taking my word for what had transpired. I think there's a twenty-something page thread from back in the Karma War which pretty clearly demonstrated my lack of understanding when it comes to stuff like this.

[quote name='Caleb279' timestamp='1281495892' post='2410600']
Wonderful perspective. The topics keep getting better and better.
[/quote]

It pleases me to deliver unto the masses their entertainment.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Ferrozoica Hive

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281507523' post='2410919']
Maybe that's part of the problem as far as public perception? When I formed the OP I took everything at face value and went from there. Sadly, while some of the rulers within the 'verse are kept up as to the blow-by-blow happenings a lot of persons are not. Taking the extra time to detail the process and complete a full tour of the logic train used to arrive at the declaration of war seems to have been better received in the past. Keeping it short and sweet, while good for time, has perhaps led to the whole "The CB doesn't matter" thought.
[/quote]

as you said, we had some time restraints. OPSEC was blown and targets were moving to peace. The CB was posted: Aiding the rogue is an act of war. We didnt know everyone would be questioning everything in that little CB. To us, the present war screens were enough and the logs we gave we were enough.

[quote]I think this one is a case of both sides being in the wrong as to execution. The NSO did something provocative which RoK had said would be construed as an act of war. On the other hand, it would have taken fifteen seconds to ensure and gain a statement from the NSO as to the intent behind the reps which would, in turn, have avoided most of the argument surrounding them. It's a matter of execution, not morals/ethics.[/quote]

Every war could have used more communication to avoid it. We did what we thought was a reasonable amount. We said don't aid, they aided and that was it for us. By that time, we had brought our concerns to three gov members and we werent being taken seriously considering thier course of action.

[quote]Eh, not how I would have done it but you make do I guess. The problem is that it looks like an attempt at a stomp or, at the least, some massive overkill. The shame is that the intent isn't what people will beleive, it's the conspiracy theories and whatnot. You do have to admit, it does look pretty bad when you've got a five-on-one going on.[/quote]

Sure, but we werent ready to let 1/3rd of their alliance escape into peace mode only to save face by attacking six hours later. The war is our priority.

As for your last point, I believe the masses will either miss this thread, or completely dismiss everything I said because they believe something different. This is why war comes first, because in the end, if someone honestly wants our side of the story, they will come to us. Rok is a very diplomatic alliance, and we have a Q&A with 50 alliances running now where we are answering these questions over and over. Those are the people we hope understand our side. The people running their mouth all over the OWF, we could honestly care less.

If you have another other questions, by all mean, raise them. Addressing the same points back and forth needs to end once and awhile.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281507523' post='2410919']
Eh, not how I would have done it but you make do I guess. The problem is that it looks like an attempt at a stomp or, at the least, some massive overkill. The shame is that the intent isn't what people will beleive, it's the conspiracy theories and whatnot. You do have to admit, it does look pretty bad when you've got a five-on-one going on.
[/quote]

Actually this one is pretty standard. as the situation has happened a number of times before. You won't find many people who know how things work in this game who actually thinks that there was any reason for the number of alliances aside from the fact that NSO was jumping into peace and had to be covered.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281509778' post='2410939']
Every war could have used more communication to avoid it. We did what we thought was a reasonable amount. We said don't aid, they aided and that was it for us. By that time, we had brought our concerns to three gov members and we werent being taken seriously considering thier course of action.[/quote]

I'd actually be interested in hearing more on the course of Ragnorok's diplomacy angle during this, if you have the time and inclination. I think there's probably a good deal there that hasn't really been said in an area of the forum where people will actually read it instead of hitting "reply" as fast as possible.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281509778' post='2410939']
Sure, but we werent ready to let 1/3rd of their alliance escape into peace mode only to save face by attacking six hours later. The war is our priority.[/quote]

That's a fair point and I can respect the prioritization. Damned if you do, damned if you don't in a sense. Time will perhaps tell where the balance between raw military/economic power versus a good public relations campaign settles. We've certainly seen things swing in either direction fairly heavily from time to time.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281509778' post='2410939']
As for your last point, I believe the masses will either miss this thread, or completely dismiss everything I said because they believe something different. This is why war comes first, because in the end, if someone honestly wants our side of the story, they will come to us. Rok is a very diplomatic alliance, and we have a Q&A with 50 alliances running now where we are answering these questions over and over. Those are the people we hope understand our side. The people running their mouth all over the OWF, we could honestly care less.[/quote]

In this, it comes back to the truth being what it is and what people say largely twisting the truth into whatever will suit their purposes. There are camps here which would to paint RoK, the NSO and every other alliance out there as the monster/hero. Sadly, it's probably going to be things like large declarations and logs which lend the most weight toward changing the minds of others.

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281509778' post='2410939']
If you have another other questions, by all mean, raise them. Addressing the same points back and forth needs to end once and awhile.
[/quote]

Nothing else is jumping to mind at the present time, though with the war being young I suspect some things will begin to emerge. I suspect the Sedrick timeline will prove an interesting thing to discuss when the information has matured a bit.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1281510485' post='2410948']
Actually this one is pretty standard. as the situation has happened a number of times before. You won't find many people who know how things work in this game who actually thinks that there was any reason for the number of alliances aside from the fact that NSO was jumping into peace and had to be covered.
[/quote]

Certainly, the tactics work and have been tested. I think the point that's perhaps a little more critical is that these tactics were the same ones used previously when the 'verse was dominated by a different power bloc, one which was thrown down for those very tactics. If I intend to win a fight I bring every asset to bear, don't get me wrong, but perhaps I want to think about how I employ said assets if I don't want to turn out looking like the last guy who got lynched for acting like that. Five-on-one looks like a curbstomp no matter how sensible or correct it is to use, something I doubt will ever change. And no, I'm not going to roll out the "(X) is as bad/is worse than (Y)!" argument since it's utterly stupid.

[Mikeyrox]

Nice to see some sensible discussion in a thread about this war rather then everyone posting the same things over and over again in a giant loop. I think I am finally starting to get my head wrapped around this situation

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Mikeyrox' timestamp='1281540825' post='2411137']
Nice to see some sensible discussion in a thread about this war rather then everyone posting the same things over and over again in a giant loop. I think I am finally starting to get my head wrapped around this situation
[/quote]

I'll take my part of the compliment, cheers. I suspect the important part of the conflict will not take the form of looking back but of looking forward to the implications of chosen policy. Certainly one point of interest going forward is which alliances will choose to follow the course chosen by RoK, VE, RnR and GOD in this war (I name them for being the larger and better known participating alliances, sorry EVE) versus other path(s) and what those groups will look like. For better or worse, large coalitions or groupings of alliances also tend to drift apart more quickly as they sift down into smaller, more tightly bound units. I would think that we'll see the real effects of this war a few months down the road, assuming enough persons bother to remember it happened.

For that matter, the same will apply to the position taken by the NSO. On both sides you have alliances taking hard-and-fast stances on conduct and behavior. In a sense, I suspect that barring some colossal public-relations blunder at the very least you'll see both RoK and the NSO coming out as winners in some form at the end of this war as we head into another age of political polarization. How that will reflect on others will be the fun part to speculate about now and witness later.

[b]Note:[/b] Much to the chagrin of everyone I'm looking forward to doing a breakdown on the post-war state of things. It should be another interesting outing, assuming the same caliber of persons involve themselves in that discussion (minus three or four personages - you know who you are).

Edited August 11, 2010 by Ferrozoica Hive

[Leigon]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281541936' post='2411146']
For that matter, the same will apply to the position taken by the NSO. On both sides you have alliances taking hard-and-fast stances on conduct and behavior. In a sense, I suspect that barring some colossal public-relations blunder at the very least you'll see both RoK and the NSO coming out as winners in some form at the end of this war as we head into another age of political polarization. How that will reflect on others will be the fun part to speculate about now and witness later.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if I agree with your statement that both RoK and NSO will go out of this war as winners.

Splitting it up into military/economic power and political power as you did, it's pretty certain who will win the militaty side. And the political side is far from decided in NSOs favour. They already lost a treaty which by their own admission they had marked as a key part of their future foreign policy. Their abbrasive foreign affairs style finally blew up in their faces and I'm wondering if they'll be able to retain their "unique" alliance culture after the war. It's been proven impracticable to take in rogues without proper background checks, yet I doubt they will change that policy in any way. Pride, et al.
RoK on the other hand did exactly what they said they would do. They might not have tried to reach a peaceful solution as eagerly as they would have had it been 2008 and they were negotiating with NPO. But they did give NSO an easy out. And I think most if not all of their allies are cool with the way they handled it. So I'd say the political side is a tie or maybe even leaning towards RoKs side a bit. Of course, I'm biased and such a thing really can only be seen hindsight, so all this is mere speculation, but I'm not so sure it's going to turn into a clear PR victory for NSO which would be needed to offset the clear military victory of RoK in my eyes.

Good Thread though.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281539900' post='2411129']
I'd actually be interested in hearing more on the course of Ragnorok's diplomacy angle during this, if you have the time and inclination. I think there's probably a good deal there that hasn't really been said in an area of the forum where people will actually read it instead of hitting "reply" as fast as possible.
[/quote]

Well, to start, we had already been contacted by TENE on Saturday, the day Sedrick was recruited, that they needed help. Everytime they attempted to negotiate with Sedrick, he'd throw out a name: joining MHA, FARK sought reps for him, planning on joining NPO, NSO, etc. So they wanted it handled they way it should, update quad. Apparently, Sedrick hid with NSO, even telling them that he had attacked 6 nations and people were planning on attacking him at update.

They accepted him, knowing these things because Sedrick, himself, had told them. We contacted Heggo and RV. Both decided to wave off any possibility that this person was a rogue. They didnt ask for evidence, they simply sent us off to the next person. You already know the Hoo-Heft convo.

[quote]In this, it comes back to the truth being what it is and what people say largely twisting the truth into whatever will suit their purposes. There are camps here which would to paint RoK, the NSO and every other alliance out there as the monster/hero. Sadly, it's probably going to be things like large declarations and logs which lend the most weight toward changing the minds of others.[/quote]

People will think what they want to think. If that means painting Rok and SF by attachment the new hegemony, then they'll be agreeing with anything that points in that direction.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1281510485' post='2410948']
Actually this one is pretty standard. as the situation has happened a number of times before. You won't find many people who know how things work in this game who actually thinks that there was any reason for the number of alliances aside from the fact that NSO was jumping into peace and [b]had to be covered[/b].
[/quote]

I'll bite on this one. I'm not in military and never have been, so I don't have any great insight as to why this was so necessary? All right, if they flee to peace mode, they can perhaps drag this out, but once the economic penalties kick in they will be shooting themselves in the foot, and you would be taking no damage at all. If you must have the casualties you can simply insist they come out before they get peace; you are completely in the drivers seat in that position. Besides, why would NSO stay in peace mode indefinitely over this? It's a speed bump, not a mountain range. Unless you were planning on this war going a lot longer then most people probably assume it will, I don't see the need for this. If they rush to peace mode it's puts the onus for dragging out the war on their shoulders, not yours. Can they really do THAT much more damage by choosing their targets when they come out of peace mode? That would only give them one blitz before they get dogpiled. I'm sure I'm missing something important though.

Maybe it all happened too fast for any real thought to be put into it, but it looks like you have this military manual that says do X in situation Y, and no one ever considers other possibilities. A lot of people on RoK's side have complained about NSO's allies not helping them; maybe if only RoK & TENE had been in the first wave that might have happened. We'll never know now.