Decree of the Sith

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319110' post='2405917']
And there might not have been a valid reason behind his wars, but NSO completely ignored this. Instead of doing what every competent alliance does when they have an applicant who is at war(Especially when that exact same applicant is considered to be a rogue nation by RoK) they went ahead and accepted him and sent him aid when explicitly told "this guy is a rogue, don't aid him we will consider it an act of war if you do" This is effectively NSO saying "pfft do something about it"

It's not difficult.
[/quote]

You don't seem to understand. Unfortunately I don't offer a coloring book.

NSO accepts rogues, ZI listers and all other sorts. We protect them from further outside attacks. When RoK approached us, we were told how things would happen. We asked for more information, a request which was refused. We would not protect him, if the correct information was provided. RoK ignored us, and attacked anyway at which point the aid was sent. To me, this sounds suspiciously like their argument. Unfortunately from my angle they also acted before we did.

Now, if you need the hooked on phonics version, I'm sure you can order it from Penkala.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281318812' post='2405895']
And if RoK had provided NSO with the further information requested, there would be no qualms from this end.
[/quote]


When did you request said information?

[rodrod]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319110' post='2405917']
And there might not have been a valid reason behind his wars, but NSO completely ignored this. Instead of doing what every competent alliance does when they have an applicant who is at war(Especially when that exact same applicant is considered to be a rogue nation by RoK) they went ahead and accepted him and sent him aid when explicitly told "this guy is a rogue, don't aid him we will consider it an act of war if you do" This is effectively NSO saying "pfft do something about it"

It's not difficult.
[/quote]
This just show how small your intelligence level is. RoK also ignored a very important part of the whole situation, that thing called [i]diplomacy[/i]. Seriously, a DoW less than 24 hours later is a bit ridiculous. Someone could have said, "You sent that guy aid, we told you not too, wtf dude, here's your proof" If NSO is the alliance they proved to me they where in this thread then they would have backed down and probably given RoK some reps for sending the aid. But no, you have to skip the part everyone else does because you where dealing with an alliance you didn't like. That's class right thar.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319110' post='2405917']
And there might not have been a valid reason behind his wars, but NSO completely ignored this. Instead of doing what every competent alliance does when they have an applicant who is at war(Especially when that exact same applicant is considered to be a rogue nation by RoK) they went ahead and accepted him and sent him aid when explicitly told "this guy is a rogue, don't aid him we will consider it an act of war if you do" This is effectively NSO saying "pfft do something about it"

It's not difficult.
[/quote]


NSO ignored the possibility that the reason the guy was being attack wasn't valid? I'm hoping you said that backwards.

You know what someone with competency does? They stop talking when they don't know what they're even on about. Stop talking.

I guess in your world, we live in an age where two aid slots earns you 23.4mi NS hurtling down upon you in the same day without any attempt at negotiation.

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1281318820' post='2405896']
First of all, he could have just been raiding someone, not necessarily a rogue. 2 wars dosen't mean "ZOMG THIS GUY WENT ROUGE ON THAT ALLIANCE, HE'S TOTALLY EVIL AND WE SHOULD GIVE ROK OUR MEMBER TO ZI" There could have been a valid reason behind hid wars, and NSO kicking a member out without learning the situation and getting more information would prove them to be the alliance everyone says they are.
[/quote]


[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1281318833' post='2405898']
Being at war means you're a rogue?

You just blew my mind. Maybe Rodrod has to babyfeed you, since he assumed you knew that being at war doesn't automatically make you a rogue.
[/quote]

If the NSO had bothered to check those two offensive wars which they proclaimed to be defensive so quickly, there would have been less of a hassle here. Ragnarok told NSO fairly clearly that this guy was a rogue and an enemy of one of their protectorates from what I can tell, and the only reason that I can see behind accepting someone who has already achieved rogue status is pretty much a big middle finger to that alliance. I really don't see any other way around this barring some change of the chronology I've been given.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281319327' post='2405931']
You don't seem to understand. Unfortunately I don't offer a coloring book.

[b]NSO accepts rogues, ZI listers and all other sorts.[/b] We protect them from further outside attacks. When RoK approached us, we were told how things would happen. We asked for more information, a request which was refused. We would not protect him, if the correct information was provided. RoK ignored us, and attacked anyway at which point the aid was sent. To me, this sounds suspiciously like their argument. Unfortunately from my angle they also acted before we did.

Now, if you need the hooked on phonics version, I'm sure you can order it from Penkala.
[/quote]

Well people on ZI lists tend to be on there for reasons, and well, if you don't feel like waiting to hear the reason and see proof before going ahead and aiding the guy. Don't be surprised when some decides to take action.

Pretty boneheaded policy don't you think?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Sargun II]

Anyone who is stupid enough to think that NSO will not accept a member because you claim something without any proof deserves to have people attacking their nations in the first place. NSO did nothing wrong here.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319356' post='2405933']
When did you request said information?
[/quote]

When RoK first approached NSO claiming Sedrick as a rogue and telling us attacks would be commencing. There was no desire to hear what we had to say.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1281319199' post='2405921']
"They are willing to go to war with us over this? How rude. I'll be rude back and send Sedrick some aid."
[/quote]

actually it appeared more like, "RoK is demanding NSO do nothing while RoK attacks a member of NSO without giving NSO any proof as to why this member should be attacked. RoK is also stating any aid sent to this member of NSO will be considered an act of war. RoK continues to ignore the diplomatic procedure of providing proof for claims, especially when NSO has stated that the wars are defensive because TENE spied on the member first. NSO then sends aid. RoK declares war over 6 million in aid." both sides were extremely stupid, arrogant, and were at first needlessly putting their allies at risk. NSO at least is attempting to stop the escalation by not activating their treaties. Otherwise it is quite clear that all that will happen is yet another curbstomp on NPO/TOP/IRON/allies.

[GiuseppeG]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319110' post='2405917']
And there might not have been a valid reason behind his wars, but NSO completely ignored this. Instead of doing what every competent alliance does when they have an applicant who is at war(Especially when that exact same applicant is considered to be a rogue nation by RoK) they went ahead and accepted him and sent him aid when explicitly told "this guy is a rogue, don't aid him we will consider it an act of war if you do" This is effectively NSO saying "pfft do something about it"

It's not difficult.
[/quote]

So you believe skipping negotiations and starting a war right away over like 6mi of aid was worth the risk to possibly start another big war, and also risk millions to rebuild after is a great solution? You sir, should be president of the US.

[Choson]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1281319496' post='2405946']
When RoK first approached NSO claiming Sedrick as a rogue and telling us attacks would be commencing. There was no desire to hear what we had to say.
[/quote]

No, they said that attacks would commence if you aided him. If you didn't aid him, RoK wouldn't have attacked. It's not that difficult to understand.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1281319407' post='2405935']
This just show how small your intelligence level is. RoK also ignored a very important part of the whole situation, that thing called [i]diplomacy[/i]. Seriously, a DoW less than 24 hours later is a bit ridiculous. Someone could have said, "You sent that guy aid, we told you not too, wtf dude, here's your proof" If NSO is the alliance they proved to me they where in this thread then they would have backed down and probably given RoK some reps for sending the aid. But no, you have to skip the part everyone else does because you where dealing with an alliance you didn't like. That's class right thar.
[/quote]

Why should RoK wait for NSO when NSO could not wait for RoK? A simple request ignored, that's pretty much a slap in the face to diplomacy right before negotiations even began.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1281319467' post='2405940']
If the NSO had bothered to check those two offensive wars which they proclaimed to be defensive so quickly, there would have been less of a hassle here. Ragnarok told NSO fairly clearly that this guy was a rogue and an enemy of one of their protectorates from what I can tell, and the only reason that I can see behind accepting someone who has already achieved rogue status is pretty much a big middle finger to that alliance. I really don't see any other way around this barring some change of the chronology I've been given.
[/quote]

key word there is "told" not "provided any proof whatsoever but instead only issued orders as if NSO was not a sovereign alliance that deserved any attempts at respect, cordial behavior, or diplomatic efforts whatsoever."

sorry, but i would have told Van Hoo to $%&@ off if he basically tried to order my alliance to let one of our nations be hit without any proof whatsoever especially after treating me like i and my alliance were his little !@#$%*es to play with as he sees fit.

[Blue Lightning]

[quote name='TheThirdMark' timestamp='1281314753' post='2405583']
You mean, something like this?


RoK: Ohaithar! We seem to have a bit of a situation.
NSO: We dont care.
RoK: There is a rogue attacking one of our protectorates.
NSO: We dont care.
RoK: We are bound by treaty to step in and take care of this little problem.
NSO: We dont care.
RoK: The rogue involved can either pay the Reps (yes, a massive and extreme 6M as we all know an amount nobody can afford).
NSO: We dont care.
RoK: Or get a single ZI out of it.
NSO: We dont care... But... We will aid him in all his actions he will make as if he was still a rogue.
RoK: Why would you do so. It will be an act of War, are you REALLY willing to make this escalate?
NSO: YES.
RoK: Well we prefer a normal way of communication so we advise you not to do so. You know about our sentiment in this situation.
NSO: We dont care.


*5 minutes later*

''Aid, Aid, Aid''

*10 minutes later*

''Hell unleashed etc etc''

*50 minutes later*

''NSO hereby officially cries and asks each and every crybaby to come here and cry with us like a pack of incontinent wolves''.



Feel free to correct me if im wrong.
[/quote]
I was thinking more along the lines of:

RoK: Hey, this guy went rogue against our ally, *explain what he did exactly*
RoK: We're going to attack him, k?
NSO: Oh, ok. Well don't attack him yet as he is a legitimate member, but get us a reps list and we'll work something out.
RoK: Ok, 6m should cover it.
NSO: Kay, we'll have that sent out soon. Please tell your guys to peace out and we'll do the same with our guy.
RoK: K

[Kevanovia]

*Scratches head*

You're completely right on one hand. This was a set-up for a war, granted it was a valid CB, but they still wanted war. But on the other hand, I was under the impression that NSO was very "Do something about it," or "If you're bored, make something happen." Now that something has happened, you're killing it? Come on now, we want some fun.

Unless...unless this is a ploy to subconsciously strain the relations between CnG-Superfriends........NSO, you're brilliant!

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='GiuseppeG' timestamp='1281319514' post='2405948']
So you believe skipping negotiations and starting a war right away over like 6mi of aid was worth the risk to possibly start another big war, and also risk millions to rebuild after is a great solution? You sir, should be president of the US.
[/quote]

it is quite obvious that this tiny little issue that most alliances would have used actual diplomacy over, is simply an attempt to draw certain alliances into war. especially considering that SF's side is much larger and far better prepared for war than the alliances that are still rebuilding after sending out massive reps or getting out of a long drawn out war.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319356' post='2405933']
When did you request said information?
[/quote]

[quote]<Rebel_Virginia> That makes no sense.
<Rebel_Virginia> Also, do you have proof of malicious intent?
<ManwithplanX[FARK]> Neither Chin nor their emperor has been on in the past few days to give us full logs of this event so when they show up with that then I can give it to you
<Rebel_Virginia> You see, satire is a harmless act. It is often used to make a political point, and can often be quite funny.
<ManwithplanX[FARK]> At the moment we are holding off until these logs appear
<Rebel_Virginia> You do understand that we will have to see the logs before making a decision, right?[/quote]

[quote][23:44] <ManwithplanX[FARK]> Actual logs of our 'member' being in the channel are not available as no one had the idea to record them
[23:46] <Heft> right
[23:46] <ManwithplanX[FARK]> Do you have an issue with this?
[23:48] <Heft> Well you haven't actually shared anything particularly useful with me[/quote]

[quote]01[02:32] <Rebel_Virginia> We protect all of our members from unjustified attacks.
01[02:32] <Rebel_Virginia> We are simply asking for evidence of wrongdoing. Is that really so much to ask?
[02:33] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We told you why we considered him a rogue ...
01[02:33] <Rebel_Virginia> And are we supposed to take your word?
[02:34] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Actually, yes ... we consider him a rogue, why would we care if YOU do?
01[02:34] <Rebel_Virginia> Would you take ours? I honestly doubt it. Not without some sort of log or screenshot to back it up.[/quote]

Yes. We asked.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='GiuseppeG' timestamp='1281319514' post='2405948']
So you believe skipping negotiations and starting a war right away over like 6mi of aid was worth the risk to possibly start another big war, and also risk millions to rebuild after is a great solution? You sir, should be president of the US.
[/quote]

If you're going to be arrogant and constantly ignore peoples wishes because you're under the impression the wolrd revolves around you, don't be surprised when people just decide they're tired of your !@#$.

[rodrod]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319683' post='2405958']
Why should RoK wait for NSO when NSO could not wait for RoK? A simple request ignored, that's pretty much a slap in the face to diplomacy right before negotiations even began.
[/quote]
NSO did wait for RoK, but proof never arrived, and so aid was dropped on their member because he was in 2 wars and needed it. It's not really that hard to understand. But because RoK clearly wanted to start a war, they skipped the part where they gave the proof too NSO. So once again, RoK can do wrong sir, and in this case they did. Shocking isn't it?

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1281319629' post='2405954']
No, they said that attacks would commence if you aided him. If you didn't aid him, RoK wouldn't have attacked. It's not that difficult to understand.
[/quote]

Prior conversations occurred. Don't make the mistake of basing your judgment on the partial information you have received.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281319863' post='2405973']
Yes. We asked.
[/quote]


[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319356' post='2405933']
When did you request said information?
[/quote]

I'm sure you did ask. Allow me to reword it:

Did you ask for proof before or after RoK told you he was a rogue and you went ahead and aided him anyway?

[Whitney]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1281319505' post='2405947']
RoK attacks a member of NSO without giving NSO any proof as to why this member should be attacked
[/quote]

[IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/OmegaMet/broken-record.png[/IMG]

Go ahead and read [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&view=findpost&p=2404925"]those logs[/url]. Let me know what proof you're looking for. It seems there was enough discussion to warrant NSO not aiding him.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319866' post='2405974']
If you're going to be arrogant and constantly ignore peoples wishes because you're under the impression the wolrd revolves around you, don't be surprised when people just decide they're tired of your !@#$.
[/quote]

so given the looks of it, RoK and SF should be getting rolled shortly after this amirite?

[CRexx]

Nice turn around time by SF on the same day war to 6 million in aid.

It should be fairly obvious here that ROK wanted a war or some kind of incident to come out of this. Taking the hard line figuring they can ever have the pleasure of throwing their weight around and making the NSO cower or the NSO would give them the middle finger and they could have a fun little war. They got Option B out of those two from the looks of it.

Overall it strikes me as the old stuff I saw go down during the days of Pax Pacifica. Picking on alliance that was deemed a potential threat, hitting it and getting a nice little war in. Eventually enough people start screaming on the forums and you have to drop the war, but in the mean time if you do it right you can burn off a month or two of rebuilding with the cheap shots you do manage to get in.

[GiuseppeG]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281319866' post='2405974']
If you're going to be arrogant and constantly ignore peoples wishes because you're under the impression the wolrd revolves around you, don't be surprised when people just decide they're tired of your !@#$.
[/quote]

YES! But of course! Speaking the truth is arrogant because you cant face it?