Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Pomiel]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281626424' post='2412722']
Yes. I clearly said that.
[/quote]

I know man, I'm on your side here. I'm all for rolling RoK

[agafaba]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281634282' post='2412878']
Can we now expect your side of this argument to now begin taking in all of the unaligned that have been aggressively attacked?
[/quote]

Indeed, my micro alliance will now aggressively defend every unaligned just because some people cant handle that they might get some resistance when bullying the weak.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281636719' post='2412927']
Indeed, my micro alliance will now aggressively defend every unaligned just because some people cant handle that they might get some resistance when bullying the weak.
[/quote]

How was this bullying? They changed his DEFCON level (well tried to). If you consider that bullying then you need to grow a thicker skin.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281639331' post='2412999']
How was this bullying? They changed his DEFCON level (well tried to). If you consider that bullying then you need to grow a thicker skin.
[/quote]

Thick skin or otherwise, spying is an act of war in my book. The initiator of the first spy attempt is the aggressor in a war.

*Edit: It may be a cold war, granted, but if there was damage done by the spy attack, I'd do my best to seek reparations.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281639331' post='2412999']
How was this bullying? They changed his DEFCON level (well tried to). If you consider that bullying then you need to grow a thicker skin.
[/quote]

I'll be changing DEFCON levels on VE nations all next week. Please confirm that this will not be viewed as an aggressive act.

I'd hate to start a war or something.

[Crymson]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281566606' post='2411658']
I'm really having a hard time suspending disbelief and imagining anybody else being that blinding stupid long enough to decide how I'd react. I think I'd have trouble declaring war at the same speed Hoo did just on the basis that I'd be too stunned from the blinding idiocy to do anything coherent for a while.
[/quote]

Then pursuant to subsection D3 of paragraph 1,290, I hereby declare this treaty in abeyance.

/me cuts transmission

[agafaba]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281639331' post='2412999']
How was this bullying? They changed his DEFCON level (well tried to). If you consider that bullying then you need to grow a thicker skin.
[/quote]

Bob was stating that it matters not why the unaligned decided to defend himself, simply the act of doing so makes unaligned rogues, at said point Merrie posted a "do something about it" and I replied sarcastically.

Besides the fact as a few others pointed out, I doubt you would be saying the same thing if I started to spy defcon levels of your alliances members. Perhaps VE needs to grow a thicker skin as well.

[Bob Janova]

Ok let's get this clear since it seems to be causing you some problems. Yes, spying on someone is a valid CB (so I don't recommend widespread spying of our Defcon levels). Acting on a CB, and going to war, puts you into a state of aggressive war (justified with a good CB, not justified without one, which is the subjective part usually). Going into a state of aggressive war when you're unaligned, or in applicant status, makes you a rogue, even if your war is justified.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Bob Janova

[PotFace]

Bob, I don't think the issue here is the CB's validity. We get that part. We understand that, according to general practice, RoK had a valid CB. What we want to know is, why is it that RoK had such a hard time avoiding war over something so trivial that nearly every other alliance on Bob could have handled without a DoW?

We're on page 55 here, and still no answer to that question. Yes yes, we understand that they [i]could[/i] do it. What we want to know is why they [i]did[/i] do it. Everyone knows that just because you [b]can[/b], doesn't mean you [b]should[/b]. Or at least, I thought everyone knew that.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281643354' post='2413122']
Ok let's get this clear since it seems to be causing you some problems. Yes, spying on someone is a valid CB (so I don't recommend widespread spying of our Defcon levels). Acting on a CB, and going to war, puts you into a state of aggressive war (justified with a good CB, not justified without one, which is the subjective part usually). Going into a state of aggressive war when you're unaligned, or in applicant status, makes you a rogue, even if your war is justified.
[/quote]

I agree with everything you said truthfully, with the exception of the rogue bit. I suppose I think of unaligned nations as unemployed instead of illegal immigrants. Defending yourself shouldnt be grounds for ZI.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1281624954' post='2412695']
Yes, they rushed into war proving how eagerly they wanted one. One of these days they may hurt themselves jumping so frantically.
That cant be healthy, you can pull a muscle,....
[/quote]

Rushed? what extra steps would you have taken after having your face spat in? If someone tells you "war if X" and you do X, did you think there would be a tea party first? Maybe a nice game of peanuckle?

[quote]
No. The case isn't that clear cut, and NSO had a right to hear further elaborations about the matter before giving their member to the wolves. Matter of principle.
[/quote]

This is the part that gets you in trouble, the rest of us, who aren't crazy, we find the facts before accepting a new recruit and risking our whole alliance over somebody who probably wouldn't pass our entrance exam anyway.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281625031' post='2412699']
Oh really? If that's the case, then why is it that RoK didn't argue this point first? Why was their first move to explain why he was being considered a rogue (which was because he was impersonating Fark gov)? You may not be privy to such information or logs, but I can tell you right now, that it's more complicated than the !@#$ you guys are talking about.
[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to tell me your own admission process doesn't include checking the status of a prospective members war screens and getting an explanation for any activity on it? Unless your entire government is staffed by complete incompetents you should have known what Hoo was going to talk about before he even queried you, and on the off chance you didn't you should have checked all information about a member as soon as somebody else asks about him.

Whenever I get queried about a member I've got his forum account and nation up on screen before they even get to their problem.

The only excuses you have for lack of information in this case is either willful ignorance or criminal incompetence. Either way good luck getting the sympathy vote with that.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281625356' post='2412707']
This is an interesting viewpoint, and I suppose I can understand it. But Heft saw it differently; he didn't think that war could happen from something this dumb. We were not intent on picking a fight here, regardless of the fact that the actions we took might reflect that.
[/quote]

If wars can start over nebulous reasons like "destabilizing a sphere" you really don't think more concrete actions like sending aid to somebody at war could get an alliance in trouble? Do you guys even pay attention to the world you exist in anymore?

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281626769' post='2412728']
Everything I'm seeing about the whole affair says that Heft genuinely [b]did not think that Sedrick would be someone that anyone would want to pick a fight over.[/b] NSO had taken in far more infamous people in the past and it all worked in the end, so there is some justification to Heft's attitude. But much like the guy you raid that turns out to be The Wrong Target [size="2"](tm)[/size], this affair promptly blew up in NSO's face.
[/quote]

Bold mine.

This is where people trip up, Its not about Sedrick. Its about committing a directed attack after having been warned about it, and the level of insult that delivers. That's what stopped any diplomatic solution in its tracks. If somebody tells you sending aid is an act of war, and you do it anyway, there is going to be war.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1281627821' post='2412744']
I am quite interested to see what will be offered to NSO.
[/quote]

I bet its more than 6 million.

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281636719' post='2412927']
Indeed, my micro alliance will now aggressively defend every unaligned just because some people cant handle that they might get some resistance when bullying the weak.
[/quote]

I foresee frequent conversations with the GOONS in your future. I think they average something like 2.4 tech raids a member right now.

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1281640332' post='2413016']
I'll be changing DEFCON levels on VE nations all next week. Please confirm that this will not be viewed as an aggressive act.
[/quote]

Feel free to ignore Damsky, most of us do.

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281644693' post='2413158']
I agree with everything you said truthfully, with the exception of the rogue bit. I suppose I think of unaligned nations as unemployed instead of illegal immigrants. Defending yourself shouldnt be grounds for ZI.
[/quote]

Unaligned get the short end of the stick in every way shape and form, welcome to CN.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1281640791' post='2413025']
Then pursuant to subsection D3 of paragraph 1,290, I hereby declare this treaty in abeyance.

/me cuts transmission
[/quote]

You may have your three weeks.

Edited August 12, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Kanzler Bismark]

Go RoK! Get Some!

[Mirreille]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281645180' post='2413170']
Bold mine.

This is where people trip up, Its not about Sedrick. Its about committing a directed attack after having been warned about it, and the level of insult that delivers. That's what stopped any diplomatic solution in its tracks. If somebody tells you sending aid is an act of war, and you do it anyway, there is going to be war.

Unaligned get the short end of the stick in every way shape and form, welcome to CN.
[/quote]

It's true that NSO sending the aid and ignoring the ultimatum was an "insult" and provoked the war. The problem is Rok declared on Sedrick when he was flying NSO as his AA, so NSO has to either agree with Rok that he is a rogue and let him go, or disagree and defend him. They obviously chose the latter, but the first insult was tossed by Rok for attacking him before talking to NSO, not NSO sending the aid. Granted, I think in the end Rok will have been proven right about him being a rogue, but their aggressive diplomacy does make them look a little bit worse then they should have over this.

BTW, someone said Sedrick had impersonated a Fark officer to try and trick a TENE membe into sending him aid. If that is true, where is the PM of that? That piece of evidence would pretty much settle any question of whether he was or was not a rogue.

I still don't like calling a nation a rogue simply because they choose to defend themselves while unaligned. To me, a rogue is someone who is a member of a group who then leaves and betrays them, or someone who starts aggressive wars. To call any unaligned nation a rogue is just slanderous.

[ironchef]

I hate you all and your pathetic war. Your little power trip has cost me 5 improvement slots. I hope RoK and NSO choke on their nukes. May you both die swiftly because of your stupidity.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Mirreille' timestamp='1281646521' post='2413202']
It's true that NSO sending the aid and ignoring the ultimatum was an "insult" and provoked the war. The problem is Rok declared on Sedrick when he was flying NSO as his AA, so NSO has to either agree with Rok that he is a rogue and let him go, or disagree and defend him. They obviously chose the latter, [b]but the first insult was tossed by Rok for attacking him before talking to NSO[/b], not NSO sending the aid. Granted, I think in the end Rok will have been proven right about him being a rogue, but their aggressive diplomacy does make them look a little bit worse then they should have over this.

BTW, someone said Sedrick had impersonated a Fark officer to try and trick a TENE membe into sending him aid. If that is true, where is the PM of that? That piece of evidence would pretty much settle any question of whether he was or was not a rogue.

I still don't like calling a nation a rogue simply because they choose to defend themselves while unaligned. To me, a rogue is someone who is a member of a group who then leaves and betrays them, or someone who starts aggressive wars. To call any unaligned nation a rogue is just slanderous.
[/quote]

Come on now, don't you think the first insult was NSO accepting a member that was at war with RoK's protectorate? Seriously, how is this lost on so many?

[Jrenster]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281645180' post='2413170']
If wars can start over nebulous reasons like "destabilizing a sphere" you really don't think more concrete actions like sending aid to somebody at war could get an alliance in trouble? Do you guys even pay attention to the world you exist in anymore?
[/quote]


Is that really your best argument for this? lol

Six million in aid is a concrete action, but it's taken in context of everything, it's still pretty dumb. Especially when you consider sedrick.

[Tautology]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1281646618' post='2413203']
I hate you all and your pathetic war. Your little power trip has cost me 5 improvement slots. I hope RoK and NSO choke on their nukes. May you both die swiftly because of your stupidity. [/quote]
Sorry for the unborn pixels, ironchef.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281646983' post='2413210']
Is that really your best argument for this? lol

Six million in aid is a concrete action, but it's taken in context of everything, it's still pretty dumb. Especially when you consider sedrick.
[/quote]

Yeah, why you guys offered your alliance up as a sacrifice for him is beyond me.

But if you want to get rolled we're happy to oblige.

[PotFace]

Well, so much for getting my question answered. It's like the political strategy corresponds in value to the political response. All I'm getting out of these guys is:

- "The CB is technically valid, here's 1,000 reasons why."
- "Yeah, we got our faces spat in by just ONE representative of NSO, but since that gave us a CB, there was no point in trying to work things out."
- "Since other people have acted like babies and DoWed over lesser things, then it's okay for us to as well."
- "Here's another 1,000 reasons why the CB is valid."
- "Oh, and look at NSO - they should have done things differently, so even though we're the ones that posted the DoW, it's all their fault."


You guys are better than this.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281646983' post='2413210']
Is that really your best argument for this? lol

Six million in aid is a concrete action, but it's taken in context of everything, it's still pretty dumb. Especially when you consider sedrick.
[/quote]

Dumb for NSO certainly.

you keep spouting off 6 mil like the number matters, you could have filled his aid slots and it'd have still been chump change.

You send aid to a nation at war after being explicitly warned about it. It has [i]never[/i] been disputed that sending aid to someone at war is an act of war, trying to argue you didn't send very much is entirely irrelevant.

That six mil bought you a war, I do hope you feel you've gotten your money's worth.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281647612' post='2413229']
Dumb for NSO certainly.

you keep spouting off 6 mil like the number matters, you could have filled his aid slots and it'd have still been chump change.

You send aid to a nation at war after being explicitly warned about it. It has [i]never[/i] been disputed that sending aid to someone at war is an act of war, trying to argue you didn't send very much is entirely irrelevant.

That six mil bought you a war, I do hope you feel you've gotten your money's worth.
[/quote]

You may not think that sending aid to someone as an act of war is stupid because that's your party line, but many people do think that's pretty stupid. Regardless of how legitimate it is.

[Valtamdraugr]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281646983' post='2413210']
Six million in aid is a concrete action, but it's taken in context of everything, it's still pretty dumb. Especially when you consider sedrick.
[/quote]
Ump-teeth rehash: If it was not enough to go to war over, then WHY was it sent?

It was obviously enough for you to go to war over, because, you know, we TOLD you we'd go to war over it.

You did not believe Hoo, but you did believe some noob you just admitted?... um...ok?

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Valtamdraugr' timestamp='1281647904' post='2413240']
Ump-teeth rehash: If it was not enough to go to war over, then WHY was it sent?
[/quote]

Because Heft was being dumb?

[PotFace]

[quote name='Valtamdraugr' timestamp='1281647904' post='2413240']
Ump-teeth rehash: If it was not enough to go to war over, then WHY was it sent?

It was obviously enough for you to go to war over, because, you know, we TOLD you we'd go to war over it.

You did not believe Hoo, but you did believe some noob you just admitted?... um...ok?
[/quote]


So, what you're saying is, the CB is valid, correct?

[PotFace]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281647612' post='2413229']
Dumb for NSO certainly.

you keep spouting off 6 mil like the number matters, you could have filled his aid slots and it'd have still been chump change.

You send aid to a nation at war after being explicitly warned about it. It has [i]never[/i] been disputed that sending aid to someone at war is an act of war, trying to argue you didn't send very much is entirely irrelevant.

That six mil bought you a war, I do hope you feel you've gotten your money's worth.
[/quote]


So, is the CB valid then?