Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Bob Janova]

Longer than the time they took to do it, which is why other alliances were needed to actually cover the slots, heh.

I don't really get what point you're trying to make saying that negotiations only started after he moved to NSO. I mean, of course they did (well it sounds like there was a quick chat with MHA when he applied there too). And yes, negotiations ended when a NSO government representative stuck two fingers up in the face of RoK. Why should RoK continue trying the diplomatic approach after that? To be honest four hours is 3 hours 55 minutes longer than 'negotiations' over taking in a rogue should take, it's only NSO's idiotic admissions policy that meant there was even anything to talk about, and only NSO's love of brinksmanship and testing the boundaries that meant it took more than 5 minutes.

Here's how it should have gone:
Hoo: You know this nation is a rogue against our protectorate right?
(Normal alliance at this point: Oh, our mistake, membership revoked.)
Heft: Yes, but we decided to protect him anyway. How much does he owe in reps?
Hoo: $18m ($3m to each of the 6 nations he allegedly attacked in the week)
Heft: No problem, we'll send that to you right away.

It is entirely NSO's choice that it didn't go that way.

Yes, they probably wanted a war with NSO. Lots of people do, because NSO are annoying, and they've been particularly antagonistic to SF recently. That makes it [i]even more dumb[/i] of NSO to provide a good CB.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281622685' post='2412661']
Longer than the time they took to do it, which is why other alliances were needed to actually cover the slots, heh.

I don't really get what point you're trying to make saying that negotiations only started after he moved to NSO. I mean, of course they did (well it sounds like there was a quick chat with MHA when he applied there too). And yes, negotiations ended when a NSO government representative stuck two fingers up in the face of RoK. Why should RoK continue trying the diplomatic approach after that? To be honest four hours is 3 hours 55 minutes longer than 'negotiations' over taking in a rogue should take, it's only NSO's idiotic admissions policy that meant there was even anything to talk about, and only NSO's love of brinksmanship and testing the boundaries that meant it took more than 5 minutes.

Here's how it should have gone:
Hoo: You know this nation is a rogue against our protectorate right?
(Normal alliance at this point: Oh, our mistake, membership revoked.)
Heft: Yes, but we decided to protect him anyway. How much does he owe in reps?
Hoo: $18m ($3m to each of the 6 nations he allegedly attacked in the week)
Heft: No problem, we'll send that to you right away.

It is entirely NSO's choice that it didn't go that way.

Yes, they probably wanted a war with NSO. Lots of people do, because NSO are annoying, and they've been particularly antagonistic to SF recently. That makes it [i]even more dumb[/i] of NSO to provide a good CB.
[/quote]




So, what you're trying to say here is, that when RoK spoke to only [i]one[/i] representative of NSO and didn't get what it was after, they were content enough with the outcome to refrain from contacting another NSO representative, which as we now know, would have solved the very problem they brought to the table? And the reason for this is because they've been antagonistic to SF?

If you're making a case as to why the cyberverse [i]shouldn't[/i] be antagonistic toward actions like these, you're failing miserably. There's no point in spending all of that time and effort to maintain a whole department of diplomatic affairs if you're just going to toss it right out the window after 4 hours of speaking with only 1 representative. Those logs should have included a whole conference. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281622685' post='2412661']
Longer than the time they took to do it, which is why other alliances were needed to actually cover the slots, heh.

I don't really get what point you're trying to make saying that negotiations only started after he moved to NSO. I mean, of course they did (well it sounds like there was a quick chat with MHA when he applied there too). And yes, negotiations ended when a NSO government representative stuck two fingers up in the face of RoK. Why should RoK continue trying the diplomatic approach after that? To be honest four hours is 3 hours 55 minutes longer than 'negotiations' over taking in a rogue should take, it's only NSO's idiotic admissions policy that meant there was even anything to talk about, and only NSO's love of brinksmanship and testing the boundaries that meant it took more than 5 minutes.

Here's how it should have gone:
Hoo: You know this nation is a rogue against our protectorate right?
(Normal alliance at this point: Oh, our mistake, membership revoked.)
Heft: Yes, but we decided to protect him anyway. How much does he owe in reps?
Hoo: $18m ($3m to each of the 6 nations he allegedly attacked in the week)
Heft: No problem, we'll send that to you right away.

It is entirely NSO's choice that it didn't go that way.

Yes, they probably wanted a war with NSO. Lots of people do, because NSO are annoying, and they've been particularly antagonistic to SF recently. That makes it [i]even more dumb[/i] of NSO to provide a good CB.
[/quote]

You're just plain wrong. If it was a mistake to send him aid, why in the world would we pay reps for his actions? Our policy is that we do not help our members with their previous military engagements.

What should have happened is that RoK gives us the evidence we were looking for, and we kick sedrick out for using us. That would have been case closed, cut and dry.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281622685' post='2412661']
Longer than the time they took to do it, which is why other alliances were needed to actually cover the slots, heh.

I don't really get what point you're trying to make saying that negotiations only started after he moved to NSO. I mean, of course they did (well it sounds like there was a quick chat with MHA when he applied there too). And yes, negotiations ended when a NSO government representative stuck two fingers up in the face of RoK. Why should RoK continue trying the diplomatic approach after that? To be honest four hours is 3 hours 55 minutes longer than 'negotiations' over taking in a rogue should take, it's only NSO's idiotic admissions policy that meant there was even anything to talk about, and only NSO's love of brinksmanship and testing the boundaries that meant it took more than 5 minutes.

Here's how it should have gone:
Hoo: You know this nation is a rogue against our protectorate right?
(Normal alliance at this point: Oh, our mistake, membership revoked.)
Heft: Yes, but we decided to protect him anyway. How much does he owe in reps?
Hoo: $18m ($3m to each of the 6 nations he allegedly attacked in the week)
Heft: No problem, we'll send that to you right away.

It is entirely NSO's choice that it didn't go that way.

Yes, they probably wanted a war with NSO. Lots of people do, because NSO are annoying, and they've been particularly antagonistic to SF recently. That makes it [i]even more dumb[/i] of NSO to provide a good CB.
[/quote]

We have a winner. +10 lightsaber trophies to Bob.

Man I wish there was something even remotely ambiguous about this so I could wax poetic in public for hours on end about the different interpretations of the situation but that ^ pretty much sums it up.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281622032' post='2412654']
Negotiations? I didn't see any negotiation [i]at all[/i]. Anybody see any negotiation? By the way, just out of curiosity, how long would you say it takes an alliance of that size to prepare for war?
[/quote]

Perhaps I should have placed it in quotes then: "negotiations"

Depends entirely on whether you're talking offensive/defensive war, whether or not alliance leadership has been looking for a good fight and has been preparing its people for one, and the overall attitude of the alliance toward warfare.

Ragnarok has a number of members in its ranks that are combat vets and don't mind a good brawl. Only Hoo and his closest advisers know if he was spoiling for a fight, but past performance indicates that if that there were the case, would have been at least a few hints dropped along the way that people should be getting ready, and if something serious developed, war prep would take a day maybe two for something of this magnitude.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281559175' post='2411499']
Alright. As long as you're not saying that we didn't try to negotiate after we sent the aid.

And for your information, I don't think RoK did much diplomacy before or after the aid was sent. This may be irrelevant to the war, but it is a something to remember.
[/quote]

Ultimatums, holding evidence of claims, pulling houdinis, rejecting mediations are all forms of diplomacy, dont you know? You should be grateful, TPF didn't even get that.

Edited August 12, 2010 by shahenshah

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281623130' post='2412670']
So, what you're trying to say here is, that when RoK spoke to only [i]one[/i] representative of NSO and didn't get what it was after, they were content enough with the outcome to refrain from contacting another NSO representative, which as we now know, would have solved the very problem they brought to the table? And the reason for this is because they've been antagonistic to SF?

If you're making a case as to why the cyberverse [i]shouldn't[/i] be antagonistic toward actions like these, you're failing miserably. There's no point in spending all of that time and effort to maintain a whole department of diplomatic affairs if you're just going to toss it right out the window after 4 hours of speaking with only 1 representative. Those logs should have included a whole conference. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
[/quote]

You seem to be under the impression that RoK had any interest in resolving the situation diplomatically once the aid was sent, as doing so constituted a blatant challenge.

The dogs of war must be fed, after all.

[PotFace]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281623254' post='2412674']
Only Hoo and his closest advisers know if he was spoiling for a fight, but past performance indicates that if that there were the case, would have been at least a few hints dropped along the way that people should be getting ready, and if something serious developed, war prep would take a day maybe two for something of this magnitude.
[/quote]

Meh, a day or two is pretty impressive in itself. The whole alliance would have to be signing into their nations on a daily basis to get the mass PM instructing everyone to prepare for war in time. Seeing as how [i]less than 24 hours[/i] elapsed between the time Hoo approached Heft in those logs, and the DoW, wouldn't we be able to ascertain that the order to prepare for war would have to have been given prior to Hoo approaching Heft?

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1281623242' post='2412673']
We have a winner. +10 lightsaber trophies to Bob.

Man I wish there was something even remotely ambiguous about this so I could wax poetic in public for hours on end about the different interpretations of the situation but that ^ pretty much sums it up.
[/quote]

And that's an important point.

Even if Ragnarok came to this spoiling for a fight, NSO had multiple opportunities to avoid war or at the very least make the war into a horrible PR disaster for Hoo and his alliance. As it was...sad to say not only did NSO serve up a war on a platter, they all but ask Ragnarok if they wanted fries and slaw with that.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281622032' post='2412654']By the way, just out of curiosity, how long would you say it takes an alliance of that size to prepare for war?[/quote]

Depends on the alliance, the time of day and where members happen to reside. If it were Nordreich, I'd say 6-12 hours. (Sometimes considerably less than that.) Don't know about Ragnarok, but they have an active membership so I assume it wouldn't be too different.

As to whether or not the NSO was caught by surprise....


21:24 Heft To be fair plenty of people were telling us "hey they want to attack you" but I hear that pretty much every other week so...

([url="http://pastebin.com/MtvhtwFE"]Source[/url])



Can we finally put to rest the idea that NSO had no idea this was coming?

[Branimir]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281623254' post='2412674']Ragnarok has a number of members in its ranks that are combat vets and don't mind a good brawl.[/quote]
Hmmm,....really? Fighting RoK nations is like cutting butter with a hot knife. First hand experience talking here.
They should be careful about their war desires, or they are going to hurt themselves one of these days,...
[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281623254' post='2412674']Only Hoo and his closest advisers know if he was spoiling for a fight,....[/quote]
No, the rest of us can as well from the chain of events wager a fairly educated and probable answer to that posing question.
[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281623254' post='2412674']but past performance indicates that if that there were the case, would have been at least a few hints dropped along the way that people should be getting ready, and if something serious developed, war prep would take a day maybe two for something of this magnitude.[/quote]
And exactly what you use to indicate how this wasn't a warmongering escapade, actually indicated the serious level of how it was.

The rushed nature of the DoWs indicated how there was no desire to seek any amicable peaceful diplomatic solution. After war ultimatum given by Hoo was broken, nothing but war was on the mind of the aggressive party here. That is why there was no will for any further diplomatic talks to mend this situation, and the rampant jump on NSO so they do not get the chance to escape into p.m. once they realize how war bent Hoo actually was.

The chain of events speaks for it self. Heft underestimated the war drive behind Hoo, made a mistake, Hoo jumped on it with whoever he could find at that point active. As Bob explained, its all good as NSO doesn't lick boots of SF in public so they deserve it,...

Edited August 12, 2010 by Branimir

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281623903' post='2412684']
And that's an important point.

Even if Ragnarok came to this spoiling for a fight, NSO had multiple opportunities to avoid war or at the very least make the war into a horrible PR disaster for Hoo and his alliance. As it was...sad to say not only did NSO serve up a war on a platter, they all but ask Ragnarok if they wanted fries and slaw with that.
[/quote]

Indeed. Well put.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Seeing as how less than 24 hours elapsed between the time Hoo approached Heft in those logs, and the DoW, wouldn't we be able to ascertain that the order to prepare for war would have to have been given prior to Hoo approaching Heft? [/quote]
No, seeing as how RoK didn't manage to full prepare and that's why other alliances were needed, it shows that the war wasn't pre-prepared and preparations had to be rushed

[quote]There's no point in spending all of that time and effort to maintain a whole department of diplomatic affairs if you're just going to toss it right out the window after 4 hours of speaking with only 1 representative. Those logs should have included a whole conference. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.[/quote]
Government officials often conduct one-to-one talks with other alliances. If NSO didn't want their government officials to do that then they shouldn't have done so. And they 'tossed it out the window' after that representative spat in their face.

Edit:
[quote]What should have happened is that RoK gives us the evidence we were looking for, and we kick sedrick out for using us. That would have been case closed, cut and dry.[/quote]
Oh dear, back to this again. All the evidence you need was on his war screen when you accepted him.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Bob Janova

[Branimir]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281624493' post='2412691']No, seeing as how RoK didn't manage to full prepare and that's why other alliances were needed, it shows that the war wasn't pre-prepared and preparations had to be rushed [/quote]
Yes, they rushed into war proving how eagerly they wanted one. One of these days they may hurt themselves jumping so frantically.
That cant be healthy, you can pull a muscle,....

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281624493' post='2412691']Oh dear, back to this again. All the evidence you need was on his war screen when you accepted him.[/quote]
No. The case isn't that clear cut, and NSO had a right to hear further elaborations about the matter before giving their member to the wolves. Matter of principle.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Branimir

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281623662' post='2412680']
Meh, a day or two is pretty impressive in itself.[/quote]

At Valhalla (110 nations vs. about 200) we're even faster...and it's documented.

[quote]The whole alliance would have to be signing into their nations on a daily basis to get the mass PM instructing everyone to prepare for war in time. Seeing as how [i]less than 24 hours[/i] elapsed between the time Hoo approached Heft in those logs, and the DoW, wouldn't we be able to ascertain that the order to prepare for war would have to have been given prior to Hoo approaching Heft?
[/quote]

Having been a member of Ragnarok for a time, I can tell you that I was told "something may be coming down the road, log into the forums and on IRC more often" on multiple occasions. I've even given that order. I can also tell you that in so many words I've been told to get people ready for war before a negotiation session. A few times war happen, most often it did not.

I know where you going here, and yes, based on past history it is very likely Hoo had his people ready to roll before talking to NSO. It's even possible that he planned to deliver terms that would ensure that NSO would do something that would deliver him a CB and there was some sort of conspiracy afoot. To that I would suggest: please present hard evidence. Planet Bob doesn't even like to roll out of bed in the morning without at least a couple screenshots and a nice incriminating log to parse.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281624493' post='2412691']
Oh dear, back to this again. All the evidence you need was on his war screen when you accepted him.
[/quote]

Oh really? If that's the case, then why is it that RoK didn't argue this point first? Why was their first move to explain why he was being considered a rogue (which was because he was impersonating Fark gov)? You may not be privy to such information or logs, but I can tell you right now, that it's more complicated than the !@#$ you guys are talking about.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1281623254' post='2412674']Only Hoo and his closest advisers know if he was spoiling for a fight....[/quote]

I am the person Hoo approached in order to let Nordreich know about the 'developing situation'. (Remember, kids: Retirement on Planet Bob is a lie.)

I'm not going to post the logs of our conversation -- I didn't save them, for one thing -- but he seemed to think that by telling Heft that providing aid would be an act of war, this would encourage a rapid solution to the problem. I suppose it did....in a way.

Something I don't understand is all the alleged concern about time and 'letting diplomacy work' and so on.

Speaking hypothetically, if an alliance that I had a good relationship with screwed up in the way NSO did, I would do my very best to ensure an amicable resolution. If an alliance that already disliked mine did something like this, I would give them [u]one[/u] chance to fix it and that's about it. In fact, [i]going to them in the first place[/i] would be a courtesy.

(Actually, I don't have to speak hypothetically. The latter situation occurred while I was Kaiser of Nordreich. The offending alliance fixed the problem fairly quickly, and we both moved on.)

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281625169' post='2412702']
I'm not going to post the logs of our conversation -- I didn't save them, for one thing -- but he seemed to think that by telling Heft that providing aid would be an act of war, this would encourage a rapid solution to the problem. I suppose it did....in a way.
[/quote]

This is an interesting viewpoint, and I suppose I can understand it. But Heft saw it differently; he didn't think that war could happen from something this dumb. We were not intent on picking a fight here, regardless of the fact that the actions we took might reflect that.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281624493' post='2412691']
No, seeing as how RoK didn't manage to full prepare and that's why other alliances were needed, it shows that the war wasn't pre-prepared and preparations had to be rushed
[/quote]

No, but as a member of VE admitted, Rok decided to go in early based on some evidence that NSO was starting to dive into Peace Mode and therefore if Rok waited to do an update blitz (and following standard Rok military protocols, they would have told their people in advance when to be online and ready to go), they would have been able to engage far fewer targets.

VE [i]was[/i] a last minute addition to the package, but it's pretty clear that GOD was in on things in advance. RnR I'll leave to your conclusions. The last alliance to roll on NSO was actually TENE, who from the looks of it, either weren't told much in advance or simply took a bit longer to get moving.

[Branimir]

In the end here, to cut all the crap; NSO doesn't lick their boots, its smaller then them, it isn't in the main "dwarfs aligned treaty power structure"= eeeeeasy target.

Any and literally any no matter how small trigger for war-- is to be used. It is what it is. But everything comes to an end eventually,...

[Pomiel]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281625356' post='2412707']
This is an interesting viewpoint, and I suppose I can understand it. But Heft saw it differently; he didn't think that war could happen from something this dumb. We were not intent on picking a fight here, regardless of the fact that the actions we took might reflect that.
[/quote]

Ahh, well if Heft saw it differently, even though Hoo clearly explained what would happen, I guess that makes it all our bad.

[Smooth Pancakes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281625356' post='2412707']
This is an interesting viewpoint, and I suppose I can understand it. [b]But Heft saw it differently; he didn't think that war could happen from something this dumb.[/b] We were not intent on picking a fight here, regardless of the fact that the actions we took might reflect that.
[/quote]

This isn't a crack or anything at you guys, just my honest, personal opinion, but if that's the case, NSO needs to take a close look at how they select their government. Sadly, as has been proven to be the case over the last 1 or 2 years, anything can cause a war, no matter how dumb it may or may not be. As well, Heft ordering that aid sent was the LAST thing anyone should have even thought of doing, much less actually do in this whole situation. Granted you all in NSO know Heft better than me, but based on his decisions and logic in this whole process, I personally would not feel safe or comfortable with him still being in any sort of position in government and being able to make decisions that affect the entire alliance. Again, not taking cracks or anything, that's just my blunt, honest, personal opinion.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281625356' post='2412707']
This is an interesting viewpoint, and I suppose I can understand it. But Heft saw it differently; he didn't think that war could happen from something this dumb. We were not intent on picking a fight here, regardless of the fact that the actions we took might reflect that.
[/quote]

That may be true, but as I noted in someone's blog, there was a distinct lack of clear communication between Heft and Hoo. When Heft said NSO would send aid, Hoo said that RoK would respond to such an act. That should have been a sign to investigate further the intentions behind those words. Hoo may not have stipulated what action would be taken in order to bait NSO or perhaps just out of the sometimes vague language used in a diplomatic setting.

[*Edit: Perhaps I missed it in the logs, but I didn't see Hoo come right out and say "We'll declare war on you if you aid this nation." Maybe he did and I missed it.]

Regardless, I see the mistake, less in actually sending the aid though risky it was, but more so in not having clarity about the situation. Once the mistake was made, there might have been a chance to halt the war machines by appeasing RoK, or there may not have been. More than likely, as pride has a way interfering, NSO probably refused to back down or bend.

The lesson: when dealing with a larger alliance that does not like you, tread more carefully than usual.

It's too bad lessons often come with negative reinforcement, but if you survive, you'll be stronger in character for it.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Pomiel' timestamp='1281625936' post='2412717']
Ahh, well if Heft saw it differently, even though Hoo clearly explained what would happen, [b]I guess that makes it all our bad[/b].
[/quote]
Yes. I clearly said that.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281625169' post='2412702']
I am the person Hoo approached in order to let Nordreich know about the 'developing situation'. (Remember, kids: Retirement on Planet Bob is a lie.)

I'm not going to post the logs of our conversation -- I didn't save them, for one thing -- but he seemed to think that by telling Heft that providing aid would be an act of war, this would encourage a rapid solution to the problem. I suppose it did....in a way.

Something I don't understand is all the alleged concern about time and 'letting diplomacy work' and so on.[/quote]

No aid means that the target is rapidly ZIed or very near it in short order. NSO then gets what left of him as a member and could have aided him up from there--interesting if true.

You are seeing a variety of people come out implying that peace should have been given more of a chance. I wouldn't say that there is any common justification as to why: some are NSO members, some are NSO or Ivan "fans", some are members of alliances that are allied with NSO or are close allies with an ally of NSO, others seem to think that war should always be a last resort no matter what, and a few are looking for a massive conspiracy a la the TPF War.

[quote]Speaking hypothetically, if an alliance that I had a good relationship with screwed up in the way NSO did, I would do my very best to ensure an amicable resolution. If an alliance that already disliked mine did something like this, I would give them [u]one[/u] chance to fix it and that's about it. In fact, [i]going to them in the first place[/i] would be a courtesy.[/quote]

I think that most people who have a good FA background would agree with you. The only reason you would not pursue it further if it meant war would be because your hand is weaker than the offending alliance (militarily, diplomatically, PR, etc.) and you know it.

[quote](Actually, I don't have to speak hypothetically. The latter situation occurred while I was Kaiser of Nordreich. The offending alliance fixed the problem fairly quickly, and we both moved on.)[/quote]

Everything I'm seeing about the whole affair says that Heft genuinely did not think that Sedrick would be someone that anyone would want to pick a fight over. NSO had taken in far more infamous people in the past and it all worked in the end, so there is some justification to Heft's attitude. But much like the guy you raid that turns out to be The Wrong Target [size="2"](tm)[/size], this affair promptly blew up in NSO's face.