Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Smooth Pancakes]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281517323' post='2410984']
I love me some pancakes in the morning.
[/quote]

Who doesn't love themselves some pancakes in the morning. Pancakes are the single greatest food ever made, in my opinion. And don't even try to bring waffles into the conversation. I'll !@#$%* slap those pansy waffles back to wherever the hell they came from.


Edit---


[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1281517866' post='2410987']
I work in TV production and its the same in my industry, my company phone is on 24-7....just in case.
[/quote]

Ah yes, you understand where I come from then. Yeah, it sucks having the phone on 24-7, especially when you are taking personal days and what not, but it's always those "just in case" issues that could pop at a moment's notice, and always seem to do just that.

And if you do go and ever intentionally turn your phone off for even a couple hours, and something major comes up, well, then comes the fun of trying to explain to the bosses why they were unable to reach you when you were needed most and they were calling nonstop trying to make contact with you.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Smooth Pancakes

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Smooth Pancakes' timestamp='1281516974' post='2410981']
Is Heft a member of NSO's government in any shape or form? Last I knew, someone in an alliance's government represented that alliance in everything they do on here, and thus actions they take are reflected upon that alliance. I know if I were to pull a dumbass move like Heft did (or any of R.O.C.K.'s government members and leaders for that matter), I would expect those that I (or others) committed the act against to come against R.O.C.K. as a whole as my actions were done while as an official representative of R.O.C.K.

When you are a member of an alliance's government, in my eyes and I know for sure in many other eyes, there is no he or she in regards to actions taken by that person. It's viewed as actions taken by an alliance as that person was elected/chosen/promoted to represent that alliance as a member of their government.
[/quote]This would normally hold true, had the entire rest of the NSO high government not immediately moved to correct Heft's error.

Remember a few days back, when Chron, at the time a ranking official among the Sith, was plotting against the NPO? Those actions were not sanctioned by the Sith, and are not actions taken by the Sith. Chron was reprimanded for those actions, and removed from his rank, as an appropriate punishment.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281548826' post='2411300']
This would normally hold true, had the entire rest of the NSO high government not immediately moved to correct Heft's error.
[/quote]

Except, no they didn't.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281554122' post='2411418']
Except, no they didn't.
[/quote]

Well, going in to PM certainly is a response, so it's kind of true that they attempted a fix of sorts.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281554122' post='2411418']
Except, no they didn't.
[/quote]

Are you saying that we didn't try to approach RoK after Heft did this? Because if you are, you'd be the wrongiest person alive.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281554122' post='2411418']
Except, no they didn't.
[/quote]
You know, before you were just omitting parts of the story to try and drum up support... A mistruth, but forgivable.

This is a blatant lie if there ever was one. I like to use the phrase 'blatant lie' but this, really, truly, is extreme, it is outright and explicit. Your statement could not possibly be more false.

Immediately after the incident, Rebel Virginia (Of equal rank to Heft) and other NSO high government reached out to RoK in an attempt to solve the issue, and they were ignored.

Once those ranking above Heft became available (Read: Wad of Lint and Heggo) they too tried to negotiate a peaceful, diplomatic solution with RoK. These attempts were also ignored.

The NSO continued to constantly attempt to reach out to RoK before the war began, as RoK.gov made themselves scarce.

NSO continues to reach out to RoK in an effort to approach a diplomatic solution. I am unaware of the current status of these talks, but I do know that NSO is still getting smacked around.

And you sit there, trying to paint a picture of the whole NSO just waving certain extremities at RoK this whole time, something which clearly and assuredly did not happen.

It doesn't get more blatant than that.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281557776' post='2411469']
stuff
[/quote]

So NSO attempted negotiations after the time for negotiations had passed?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281556731' post='2411454']
Are you saying that we didn't try to approach RoK after Heft did this? Because if you are, you'd be the wrongiest person alive.
[/quote]

I'm saying you set a gold standard of diplomatic bungling. It was too late to approach Rok after the aid was sent, you killed your chance to negotiate your way out of it when you spat in Hoos face.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281559032' post='2411495']
I'm saying you set a gold standard of diplomatic bungling. It was too late to approach Rok after the aid was sent, you killed your chance to negotiate your way out of it when you spat in Hoos face.
[/quote]

Alright. As long as you're not saying that we didn't try to negotiate after we sent the aid.

And for your information, I don't think RoK did much diplomacy before or after the aid was sent. This may be irrelevant to the war, but it is a something to remember.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Jrenster

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281559175' post='2411499']
Alright. As long as you're not saying that we didn't try to negotiate after we sent the aid.
[/quote]

No I just think there's points past which you can't talk your way out of a problem any longer.

[quote]
And for your information, I don't think either side did much diplomacy before or after the aid was sent.
[/quote]


Sometimes Diplomacy is talking a lot while saying nothing, sometimes its not talking much while saying a lot. We got the latter this time.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281559175' post='2411499']
Alright. As long as you're not saying that we didn't try to negotiate after we sent the aid.

And for your information, I don't think RoK did much diplomacy before or after the aid was sent. This may be irrelevant to the war, but it is a something to remember.
[/quote]

They didn't have to. NSO interjected itself into a situation they had no business being in.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281559453' post='2411504']
They didn't have to. NSO interjected itself into a situation they had no business being in.
[/quote]

That's your point of view. You may not care about our opinions, but we certainly do.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281559409' post='2411503']
No I just think there's points past which you can't talk your way out of a problem any longer.
[/quote]

I disagree, but there's no point arguing.

[quote]
Sometimes Diplomacy is talking a lot while saying nothing, sometimes its not talking much while saying a lot. We got the latter this time.[/quote]

I disagree with this as well. A lot of diplomacy these days is reliant on hard power, and not enough on soft power. That's essentially what was going on here.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281558196' post='2411476']
So NSO attempted negotiations after the time for negotiations had passed?
[/quote]Another way of saying this is "There was never any time for negotiations."

You will, of course, be ignorant of what the negotiations I refer to would have been about. So I have to spell it out for you: Negotiating a solution to [i]Heft's error in aiding the NSO member.[/i] You'll still ignore it, though. The other alternative is that you believe NSO should have been negotiating a solution to the problem before the problem occurred, but that's just absurd, right? ...Right?

[Letum]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281559032' post='2411495']
I'm saying you set a gold standard of diplomatic bungling. It was too late to approach Rok after the aid was sent, you killed your chance to negotiate your way out of it when you spat in Hoos face.
[/quote]

Wait, so from the moment the alliance makes a single "mistep", they have no recourse but getting destroyed?

No negotiations possible? No way to acknowledge a mistake? No way to apologise? No restitution or reparations? Not even punishing the person responsible for the act?

Does this apply only to "undesirables" like NSO, or is any alliance that pursues an action that conflicts with a core power's national interest in a non-damaging way subjected to the payment of a hefty price?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281559032' post='2411495']
I'm saying you set a gold standard of diplomatic bungling. It was too late to approach Rok after the aid was sent, you killed your chance to negotiate your way out of it when you spat in Hoos face.
[/quote]Except this isn't what you said, you said that NSO did not "immediately move to correct Heft's error," when in reality, they did.

Can you just admit that NSO did everything in their power to try to negotiate a diplomatic solution after Heft caused an incident and that RoK ignored this? I don't care if you think RoK's aggression is somehow justified, just admit to the facts of the situation, please.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281548826' post='2411300']
This would normally hold true, had the entire rest of the NSO high government not immediately moved to correct Heft's error.

Remember a few days back, when Chron, at the time a ranking official among the Sith, was plotting against the NPO? Those actions were not sanctioned by the Sith, and are not actions taken by the Sith. Chron was reprimanded for those actions, and removed from his rank, as an appropriate punishment.
[/quote]
This was certainly not the precedent set by you and your allies (ex: BAPS during the BAPS war), nor any other alliance. An alliance is held responsible to its government members, simple as that.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Stumpy Jung Il

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281561419' post='2411546']
Except this isn't what you said, you said that NSO did not "immediately move to correct Heft's error," when in reality, they did.

Can you just admit that NSO did everything in their power to try to negotiate a diplomatic solution after Heft caused an incident and that RoK ignored this? I don't care if you think RoK's aggression is somehow justified, just admit to the facts of the situation, please.
[/quote]

And what if he doesn't admit to your "facts"? What if I don't? What if nobody does?

Will you and everyone else remotely connected to NSO continue to go on and on and on, directing your analysis and rebukes at an audience that either agrees with you (but won't do anything about it) or simply doesn't care?

OMG....

I finally get it.

Ragnarok & Friends are this guy:

[center][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/gfgraham/Cybernations/kim-jong-il-in-team-america.jpg[/IMG][/center]

Meanwhile, over in the NSO camp....

[center][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/gfgraham/Cybernations/HansBrix.jpg[/IMG][/center]

Please continue HansofTime55. We're all paying attention. Honest.

[Letum]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281562273' post='2411556']
And what if he doesn't admit to your "facts"? What if I don't? What if nobody does?

Will you and everyone else remotely connected to NSO continue to go on and on and on, directing your analysis and rebukes at an audience that either agrees with you (but won't do anything about it) or simply doesn't care?
[/quote]

Yes.

Also, since I see you repeating the same sentiment a lot, I would suggest that you use the appropriate and suitably ironic phrase "do something about it" for what you are trying to convey . I suspect you are amongst the people for whom the political in-correctness of the phrase has an impact that is not of a particularly high value.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' timestamp='1281561981' post='2411553']
This was certainly not the precedent set by you and your allies (ex: BAPS during the BAPS war), nor any other alliance. An alliance is held responsible to its government members, simple as that.
[/quote]You know, it's funny, I remember there being a war a while back that purported to 'change the world' and reverse all these evil precedents. In fact, I remember the main issue at hand being that the alliance at the center of war didn't take the time to properly negotiate with an alliance that had government officials who committed acts of war against them. And they spent a good week negotiating before that war. Well, I guess when you look at it that way, they really DID change the world - now you don't even have to negotiate, just go out there and smash things.

And mind you, noWedge was a joke, so find a better examples than the BAPS war, please.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281562273' post='2411556']
And what if he doesn't admit to your "facts"? What if I don't? What if nobody does?

Will you and everyone else remotely connected to NSO continue to go on and on and on, directing your analysis and rebukes at an audience that either agrees with you (but won't do anything about it) or simply doesn't care?

OMG....

I finally get it.

Ragnarok & Friends are this guy:

[center]Image[/center]

Meanwhile, over in the NSO camp....

[center]Image[/center]

Please continue HansofTime55. We're all paying attention. Honest.
[/quote]Well, of course I don't expect you to admit to reality when it doesn't suit your ends. But I expect external parties may quietly start to see what's going on.

Anyway what are you doing here, shouldn't you be busy calling NPO and friends cowards and trying desperately to goad them into war?

Edited August 11, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1281560905' post='2411533']
Wait, so from the moment the alliance makes a single "mistep", they have no recourse but getting destroyed?
[/quote]

Come on you are being obtuse, there are levels of mistakes one may make, some are forgivable some are not. Committing an act of war after having been specifically warned against it is one of those unforgivable ones.

[quote]
No negotiations possible? No way to acknowledge a mistake? No way to apologise? No restitution or reparations? Not even punishing the person responsible for the act?
[/quote]

Well I can't speak for anybody but me, but if NSO had come to me with Heft's resignation I'd have been willing to keep talking. Anything less than that it just looks like you are trying to mess me about.

[quote]
Does this apply only to "undesirables" like NSO, or is any alliance that pursues an action that conflicts with a core power's national interest in a non-damaging way subjected to the payment of a hefty price?
[/quote]

First off, non-damaging? Hell no. That's the whole point, sending money to someone at war is helping them with that war. You are damaging that alliance. That's why it's an act of war.

Secondly, you try to make it sound like the source of the crime has any bearing. Sending aid is an act of war, doesn't matter who did it, NSO. GATO, the ghost of NAAC.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281563799' post='2411592']
Secondly, you try to make it sound like the source of the crime has any bearing. Sending aid is an act of war, doesn't matter who did it, NSO. GATO, the ghost of NAAC.
[/quote]Yes, but lets say, lets take an example here, let's say Athens does this exact same thing to the Viridian Entente that NSO did to RoK (This is a hypothetical, so don't chime in with a "lol but that would nevar happen"). Would VE hastily declare war on Athens while dodging Athens' attempts to negotiate?

Edited August 11, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Heft]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281563799' post='2411592']
Well I can't speak for anybody but me, but if NSO had come to me with Heft's resignation I'd have been willing to keep talking. Anything less than that it just looks like you are trying to mess me about.
[/quote]
Given that RoK dodged multiple attempts by ourselves and third parties to approach them and see what was going on or what they might even want, it's pretty irrelevant to speculate on what we should have offered them.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281563553' post='2411584']
You know, it's funny, I remember there being a war a while back that purported to 'change the world' and reverse all these evil precedents. In fact, I remember the main issue at hand being that the alliance at the center of war didn't take the time to properly negotiate with an alliance that had government officials who committed acts of war against them. And they spent a good week negotiating before that war. Well, I guess when you look at it that way, they really DID change the world - now you don't even have to negotiate, just go out there and smash things.

And mind you, noWedge was a joke, so find a better examples than the BAPS war, please.
[/quote]
For one, I dont see how thats an "evil precedent." In fact, it makes a lot of sense. Also, the BAPS war was in reference to you guys declaring on them because of the way their government acted, not the negotiations (or lack there of) later on.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281564408' post='2411609']
Yes, but lets say, lets take an example here, let's say Athens does this exact same thing to the Viridian Entente that NSO did to RoK (This is a hypothetical, so don't chime in with a "lol but that would nevar happen"). Would VE hastily declare war on Athens while dodging Athens' attempts to negotiate?
[/quote]

I'm really having a hard time suspending disbelief and imagining anybody else being that blinding stupid long enough to decide how I'd react. I think I'd have trouble declaring war at the same speed Hoo did just on the basis that I'd be too stunned from the blinding idiocy to do anything coherent for a while.