Ragnarok Declaration of War

[lazaraus45]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281480616' post='2410312']
When RoK launched their wars they were well aware that we had considered him under our protection and that all we were expecting was for them to communicate with us prior to launching those wars, and we were under the impression they would do so.

Now sure people can retroactively argue whether or not that was the correct decision but that was the situation at the time.
[/quote]

i don't know much about that situation..... had the situation changed at all at that point? also how did Hoo lead you to believe we wouldn't attack?

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281480642' post='2410313']
Whether or not a statement is true is a simple yes or no question.
[/quote]

yes but said statements with no context were clearly going to be used by you to justify your argument, let's not act stupid it's not as if had someone answered yes to that statement you'd simply say: "thank you for answering that totally irrelevant question, now onto the topic at hand....." in short you're removing context to portray your own side better, admittedly that's the point of most of these debates, i just find that your method of doing so is completely tactless

Either this issue could be resolved with an hour of negotiation or it couldn't.
- there is no guarantee negotiation would have solved the issue,

Either there was confusion about the situation from Heft's perspective or there wasn't. - he didn't seem overly confused in the logs :/

Either $6 million was sent to a ~4k NS nation or it wasn't - it was

Also you didn't answer my question - what is it about that point being addressed specifically to Typoninja the changes the context of that post?

Edited August 10, 2010 by lazaraus45

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='lazaraus45' timestamp='1281481919' post='2410343']
Either this issue could be resolved with an hour of negotiation or it couldn't.
- there is no guarantee negotiation would have solved the issue,

Either there was confusion about the situation from Heft's perspective or there wasn't. - he didn't seem overly confused in the logs :/

Either $6 million was sent to a ~4k NS nation or it wasn't - it was

Also you didn't answer my question - what is it about that point being addressed specifically to Typoninja the changes the context of that post?
[/quote]Thank you for answering the questions.
1) While it's true that there is no 100% guarantee, especially with RoK's unreasonable and aggressive view, the fact is that issues like this are negotiated between other parties all the time. The only difference in this case is that it was between RoK and NSO.

2)This is sort of, kind of dodging the question, not exactly. The logs hardly reveal the entire situation. Even in these threads people are having trouble deciding who was at fault in the fighting between TENE and the nation NSO took in. I still assert that it was not the correct move by Heft, he should have waited for all wars to be resolved before authorizing any aid, but Heft is one person and he is not infallible. The lack of information provided by RoK did not help matters, and one can hardly expect any alliance Hoo goes to to bend over and do whatever Hoo says they should. That spits on the concept of sovereignty. This is why the rest of NSO attempted to correct Heft's error.

3) I didn't think this fact was being disputed. The real issue is why your side takes offense to the numbers being brought up, even if no effort is made to label the extent of importance those numbers hold. My best guess is that the numbers scream aloud that it is a trivial incident. It is at this point that people will argue that it is not the amount, but the principle of the matter. This is blatantly untrue. f I drop a quarter on the ground, and you pick it up, I'm not going to punch you in the face and accuse you of stealing. The degree of the incident is vital, and the community should look and examine if the degree of this incident warranted such immediate aggression, in the absence of negotiation.

As to context, it was because of information in other posts that you did not include in your reply. The exchange between us provided the context for my post.

Edited August 10, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Either there was confusion about the situation from Heft's perspective or there wasn't[/quote]
Did you read the OP? There could not have been any confusion that RoK would consider aiding the rogue to be an act of war and act accordingly. Hell, GATO felt that it was so obvious that that meant war was coming that they believe NSO should have informed them that they were bringing a war onto themselves. I'm not sure I'd go that far (RoK could not have taken the bait if they wanted to see NSO preening themselves for their clever pushing of boundaries) but it was definitely an action taken in full knowledge of what it meant.

Did it 'require' war? Well, no, because no situation short of actually being declared on or having an ally declared on requires war. But war is certainly [i]justified[/i] when NSO's actions were one big 'do something about it' after being reminded how aiding people at war tends to be seen.

[quote]Indeed, the act of aiding the guy gave RoK a huge bargaining chip, and they could have potentially walked away with the upwards of $36 million and an apology from the NSO, clearly an advantageous position.[/quote]
I don't think you have the same NSO in mind as I do, heh. SF have learnt about dealing with NSO from the fun and games with Fark and CSN in Bipolar. I concur with Midnight that NSO would just have been parading their 'victory' and daring people to 'do something about it'. After all, if that wasn't Heft's intention then he wouldn't have immediately done the one thing that RoK had asked him not to do. In fact I'd go so far as to say that reps was all RoK/TENE wanted in the first place (it is clearly mentioned as an option in the logs in the OP), and if NSO wanted a diplomatic solution all they had to do was not send aid after being directly asked not to do so.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281482951' post='2410361']
Did you read the OP? There could not have been any confusion that RoK would consider aiding the rogue to be an act of war and act accordingly.[/quote]This is taking a single word out of context, good job. I meant confusion as to what was the justified correct action to take given the situation, not confusion as to whether or not Hoo would attack if NSO refused to bend over when told. In case you haven't noticed, NSO isn't in to that whole bending over thing.

[quote]Did it 'require' war? Well, no, because no situation short of actually being declared on or having an ally declared on requires war. But war is certainly [i]justified[/i] when NSO's actions were one big 'do something about it' after being reminded how aiding people at war tends to be seen.[/quote]Heft basically said "do something about it." NSO, on the other hand, basically said "No, we don't mean what Heft said, can we talk it over" and RoK punched NSO in the face. Therefore, it was not justified.


[quote]I don't think you have the same NSO in mind as I do, heh. SF have learnt about dealing with NSO from the fun and games with Fark and CSN in Bipolar. I concur with Midnight that NSO would just have been parading their 'victory' and daring people to 'do something about it'. After all, if that wasn't Heft's intention then he wouldn't have immediately done the one thing that RoK had asked him not to do. In fact I'd go so far as to say that reps was all RoK/TENE wanted in the first place (it is clearly mentioned as an option in the logs in the OP), and if NSO wanted a diplomatic solution all they had to do was not send aid after being directly asked not to do so.
[/quote]Then Hoo could have set a limit, and said "We resolve this to my satisfaction in 24 hours or it's war" and you would not hear a single complaint from me over this war. Negotiation was [i]not even attempted[/i] despite NSO's repeated efforts. The notion that NSO some how wanted this to happen to them is ridiculous, and nothing more than blaming the victim. A day of negotiation almost certainly would have resolved all issues.

Edited August 11, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281484300' post='2410388']
Heft basically said "do something about it." NSO, on the other hand, basically said "No, we don't mean what Heft said, can we talk it over" and RoK punched NSO in the face. Therefore, it was not justified.


Then Hoo could have set a limit, and said "We resolve this to my satisfaction in 24 hours or it's war" and you would not hear a single complaint from me over this war. Negotiation was [i]not even attempted[/i] despite NSO's repeated efforts. The notion that NSO some how wanted this to happen to them is ridiculous, and nothing more than blaming the victim. A day of negotiation almost certainly would have resolved all issues.
[/quote]
Heft IS one of the accepted voices of the NSO.
Get that into your head please. If you give someone the power to negotiate on behalf of your alliance then his actions are also on behalf of your alliance.

Frankly once you spit into the face of a negotiation (and thats pretty much what Heft did) it's naive at best to expect any further goodwill. Once the aid was sent pretty much the only way to avoid war would have been an apology and some form of censure on Heft for inappropriate behaviour. Instead the only thing that happened was some kind of discussion between RV and Hoo without any form of apology.

Seriously, i wouldn't mind if you sound like a broken record if you actually had a point, but currently you only remind me of mathewPK in the gramlins thread. Repetition doesn't make something true.

You say Rok should have negotiated, of course they "could" have negotiated, but frankly they had no reason to. They'd been directly insulted by the NSO and a rather firmly drawn line had been crossed what more do you want?

[Freelancer]

Whats this, I go away for a week and someone decided to throw a party? Hoo you devil you

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281473189' post='2410129']
If the community suddenly decides that the whole 'verse is carried on the back of a giant pink sparkling unicorn, it doesn't make it true.[/quote]

Prove the unicorn does not, in fact, exist please

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281473189' post='2410129']
You caught me, I was hoping you wouldn't notice. Or maybe, fancy words and strong phrases put power behind words. Or maybe I just like to write pretty language.[/quote]

I'll give one of those knowing "Yeah..."s and leave it at that.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281473189' post='2410129']
I suppose you may have a point about saving some ammo, but right now, the outcome of this CAN be affected. It is true, that the war has already begun, but as history demonstrates time and time again, placing political pressure on alliances can very much affect the future. If everyone just mindlessly hailed RoK, they'd be in the clear to beat on NSO for as long as they like and extort as much as they want by the end. By exposing the reality of the situation, RoK is put into a less than desirable PR position, and will be more inclined to be less aggressive in an attempt to not lose so much PR, or perhaps even gain back a few lost points. This is how the system works, this is how it always has worked. Every leader will tell you that they don't care about PR, but it's always just about the most blatant lie ever to be told in this world.
[/quote]

Yes and no. It's a matter of timing and your time isn't now.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281469028' post='2410040']
Excellent, more rumor and conjecture which leads absolutely nowhere. How delightful.
[/quote]

Neither rumor or conjecture. Apparently the deal for reps and two weeks were worked out and then RoK looked at NSO defending themselves in the threads and decided it was disrespectful and pull the plan. I'm sure Hoo won't confirm or deny or will anyone else but I wouldn't expect them to. At least they don;t care ho informed we are.

[Megamickel]

This is why I stay out of inter-alliance politics... Regardless of all else, NSO shouldn't have sent aid if they didn't want war. They did. Now blood will be spilled for the blood god. NSO just has to take their medicine. Should diplomacy have been attempted on RoK's part? Probably. But NSO pretty much threw them a giant middle finger by doing what RoK said not to do WITHOUT EVEN DOING RESEARCH on why RoK was angry at this nation, so RoK was understandably no longer willing to talk. Some small portion of the blame for escalation may fall on RoK for closing diplomatic channels after NSO told them to BRING IT ON. At least 75% falls on NSO for having the gall to do what RoK said explicitly would lead to war.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281487500' post='2410450']
Neither rumor or conjecture. Apparently the deal for reps and two weeks were worked out and then RoK looked at NSO defending themselves in the threads and decided it was disrespectful and pull the plan. I'm sure Hoo won't confirm or deny or will anyone else but I wouldn't expect them to. At least they don;t care ho informed we are.
[/quote]

While it is annoying to sit and watch the people you are negotiating with bash you, that is not exactly the sticking point.

Oh hey, I care how informed magicninja is!

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281488292' post='2410467']
While it is annoying to sit and watch the people you are negotiating with bash you, that is not exactly the sticking point.

Oh hey, I care how informed magicninja is!
[/quote]


So why don't you go to NSO and tell them what the sticking point is, instead of cowering and negotiating with them indirectly


Such a big boy now, Hoo

[magicninja]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281488292' post='2410467']
While it is annoying to sit and watch the people you are negotiating with bash you, that is not exactly the sticking point.

Oh hey, I care how informed magicninja is!
[/quote]

Probably more of not admitting the wrongdoing. Still arguing that they were right kind of thing?

I get it. Best of luck getting it sorted. NSO seems to be hardheaded once they dig their heels in.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281488542' post='2410474']
Probably more of not admitting the wrongdoing. Still arguing that they were right kind of thing?

I get it. Best of luck getting it sorted. NSO seems to be hardheaded once they dig their heels in.
[/quote]

Actually. We did admit to wrongdoing.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281488640' post='2410475']
Actually. We did admit to wrongdoing.
[/quote]

Yeah you admitted the aid thing was wrong. Good on you but there are still folks over at NSO arguing that no proof was given etc. You know what I mean. I don't know if that is what Hoo is referring to but that would be my guess.

[Freelancer]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1281488419' post='2410470']
So why don't you go to NSO and tell them what the sticking point is, instead of cowering and negotiating with them indirectly


Such a big boy now, Hoo
[/quote]


Lookie what we have here Hoo, a purple nation with a big mouth, why don't you and your purple cronies man up and go defend the NSO if you feel frogy, there's a few people on the sidelines paying very close attention with the hopes some of you do something very stupid.

[Heft]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281488640' post='2410475']
Actually. We did admit to wrongdoing.
[/quote]
Yes, but apparently by pointing out that RoK weren't exactly perfect saints we're being bad sports, or something.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281488815' post='2410479']
Yeah you admitted the aid thing was wrong. Good on you but there are still folks over at NSO arguing that no proof was given etc. You know what I mean. I don't know if that is what Hoo is referring to but that would be my guess.
[/quote]

I don't know what you're talking about, but it is true that they didn't provide evidence. Although that should be a moot point considering that is not the CB so it shouldn't matter who is right or wrong on that.

And I don't know what Hoo is referring too, either. He didn't tell LintWad anything.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Jrenster

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281488914' post='2410482']
Yes, but apparently by pointing out that RoK weren't exactly perfect saints we're being bad sports, or something.
[/quote]

Their allies aren't exactly perfect saints either. Sorry if we have to defend ourselves.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281489147' post='2410486']
I don't know what you're talking about, but it is true that they didn't provide evidence. Although that should be a moot point considering that is not the CB so it shouldn't matter who is right or wrong on that.

And I don't know what Hoo is referring too, either. He didn't tell LintWad anything.
[/quote]

Oh c'mon j you know that people from NSO have been saying that unless you haven't been paying attention to the threads. That is one of the main things that was said. There are others like RoK was just looking for war and never tried diplomacy etc. I really don;t know what Hoo's sticking point is as he put it so I don't want to assume too much.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281489381' post='2410493']
Oh c'mon j you know that people from NSO have been saying that unless you haven't been paying attention to the threads. That is one of the main things that was said. There are others like RoK was just looking for war and never tried diplomacy etc. I really don;t know what Hoo's sticking point is as he put it so I don't want to assume too much.
[/quote]

Well it's true that they never tried diplomacy and didn't provide evidence until after we aided him. But once again, these points are moot given the CB. So I don't know why anyone should care.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281489498' post='2410495']
Well it's true that they never tried diplomacy and didn't provide evidence until after we aided him. But once again, these points are moot given the CB. So I don't know why anyone should care.
[/quote]

I guess you'll have to take it up with Hoo.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281489591' post='2410498']
I guess you'll have to take it up with Hoo.
[/quote]

I just want to be clear here. We're not the ones stalling any negotiations or anything by being stubborn. We have rightfully admitted to our wrongdoings. Regardless of what other people say, they are not the ultimate authority figures of NSO like LintWad is.

[Lukapaka]

Why so many in peace mode, NSO?

Go get 'em RoK!

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1281492884' post='2410548']
Why so many in peace mode, NSO?

Go get 'em RoK!
[/quote]

You know there's people in PM on this side, right?

It's a valid tactic, there's plenty of other humor to be found within NSO.

[Lennox]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281496472' post='2410617']
You know there's people in PM on this side, right?

It's a valid tactic, there's plenty of other humor to be found within NSO.
[/quote]

Give him a break, he's from Sparta.