Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281448208' post='2409593']
So Hoo is a bully with a God-Emperor complex that somehow thinks he is more important than lowly Heft?
[/quote]

I think we have a winner here, step right up and get your prize.

[img]http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/therundown/banana.jpg[/img]

Edited August 10, 2010 by Charles Stuart

[Aurion]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1281453366' post='2409676']
He did what he thought was correct, as I am sure the other party did.

While screen shots may not be the end all be all, they certainly help show who is or isn't making a mountain out of a mole hill.[/quote]

True that. But I'd honestly be extremely suspicious of TENE if they had screenies lined up in a neat little row for public consumption since this sort of stuff usually doesn't go global.


[quote]
I just wanna see if this war was declared out of boredom, pride, or is well founded.[/quote]

Mostly pride, I think. Hoo isn't really in the business of empty words, and I doubt he wants to start now. Also, I can't really think of any reason for aiding the guy to start with over Rok's objections other than pride.

I'm of the opinion that sure, maybe Hoo could have been nicer. But what NSO/Heft/the people who actually aided the guy/whoever you want to blame on that end did is idiotic to the point where it really does deserve at least a slap. Possibly a punch. Or several.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Aurion

[Bob Janova]

Uh, a screenshot of the rogue's warscreen has been posted multiple times, or you can go look up Sedrick in game and see the aggressive wars from unaligned status yourself. There is no doubt as to the material facts of the case.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281454259' post='2409698']
Uh, a screenshot of the rogue's warscreen has been posted multiple times, or you can go look up Sedrick in game and see the aggressive wars from unaligned status yourself. There is no doubt as to the material facts of the case.
[/quote]
Janova, there's no question as to the fact that Sedrick declared war after being spied on.

[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img]

The argument that you and your allies are making is that he spied on Adzz first before Adzz spied on him, which there's no evidence for.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281454259' post='2409698']
Uh, a screenshot of the rogue's warscreen has been posted multiple times, or you can go look up Sedrick in game and see the aggressive wars from unaligned status yourself. There is no doubt as to the material facts of the case.
[/quote]

This right here. Whatever happened before he "joined" NSO is irrelevant, because NSO wasn't involved at that point. To act concerned about facts now, instead of pre-admission like every other alliance, is incredibly selfish and dumb.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Janova, there's no question as to the fact that Sedrick declared war[/quote]
How right you are.

[quote]The argument that you and your allies are making is that he spied on Adzz first before Adzz spied on him, which there's no evidence for. [/quote]
No it isn't. The argument I am making is that it makes absolutely no difference what may have been said or otherwise done to provoke Sedrick, he started aggressive wars and that makes him a rogue. What you and other NSO friends are doing is straw man diversion, because you know they are in the wrong in the core argument.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281455303' post='2409723']
How right you are.


No it isn't. The argument I am making is that it makes absolutely no difference what may have been said or otherwise done to provoke Sedrick, he started aggressive wars and that makes him a rogue. What you and other NSO friends are doing is straw man diversion, because you know they are in the wrong in the core argument.
[/quote]

I came here thinking I would have to be arguing with Bobby J; I left here agreeing with him. The world is changing...

Edited August 10, 2010 by tamerlane

[519 Nigras]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451817' post='2409651']
You make a very good point here and quite a valid comparison between The Hegemony behavior of ~2 years ago that was so heavily demonized and the current behavior of Rok and their supporters like you. Thank you for mentioning it here.
[/quote]

Hello Matt, long time no see!

First off, I want to say that I agree with some of the things you are saying but must take a moment to correct some falsities within your post. The Hegemony iron foot was only lifted sometime around January of this year. Being that it is now only August, I would say that 2 years ago is somewhat of a stretch, wouldn’t you?

Secondly, and I may get roasted for this, or not, but if you don’t like what’s happening… DO SOMETHING about it other than moan and complain. Kind of like what our side did prior to the Hegemonic downfall. Demonize us all you want, we’re ready when you are.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451817' post='2409651']
You make a very good point here and quite a valid comparison between The Hegemony behavior of ~2 years ago that was so heavily demonized and the current behavior of Rok and their supporters like you. Thank you for mentioning it here.
[/quote]

So without any real ground to stand on, the great Matt Miller turns to hyperbole. I must say Matt, when someone tells you If X then Y and you X !@#$ up, its very hard to be in the right. RoK acted on their word, NSO was warned. There is very little comparison that you can make to Hegemony when a valid CB involved preemption on the basis of hearsay.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='519 Nigras' timestamp='1281455557' post='2409731']
Hello Matt, long time no see!

First off, I want to say that I agree with some of the things you are saying but must take a moment to correct some falsities within your post. The Hegemony iron foot was only lifted sometime around January of this year. Being that it is now only August, I would say that 2 years ago is somewhat of a stretch, wouldn’t you?

Secondly, and I may get roasted for this, or not, but if you don’t like what’s happening… DO SOMETHING about it other than moan and complain. Kind of like what our side did prior to the Hegemonic downfall. Demonize us all you want, we’re ready when you are.
[/quote]

Wow, you are a blast from the past, nice to see you. Anyways, I was speaking of Karma which was 16 months ago so I guess down the middle of our two times. To say there was an IRON hegemony beyond that point is untrue. As to you saying do something about it, that really furthers my point.


[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1281455872' post='2409734']
So without any real ground to stand on, the great Matt Miller turns to hyperbole. I must say Matt, when someone tells you If X then Y and you X !@#$ up, its very hard to be in the right. RoK acted on their word, NSO was warned. There is very little comparison that you can make to Hegemony when a valid CB involved preemption on the basis of hearsay.
[/quote]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90345&st=760&p=2409687&#entry2409687"]Was it really hyperbole?[/url] I don't think so, it's a good comparison as far as I'm concerned. You are justifiably allowed to disagree. I also never said NSO was clean here, they screwed up to. I'm just saying taking this to all out war wreaks of warmongering. I thought the entire basis of the Karma war and everything post that time was to end that sort of behavior.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Matt Miller

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281455303' post='2409723']
How right you are.


No it isn't. The argument I am making is that it makes absolutely no difference what may have been said or otherwise done to provoke Sedrick, he started aggressive wars and that makes him a rogue. What you and other NSO friends are doing is straw man diversion, because you know they are in the wrong in the core argument.
[/quote]


If someone launched spy attacks against one of your alliance mates, you would consider that an act of war. Adzz spied on Sedrick, Sedrick responded to an act of war. If there are no other spy ops prior to the one launched by Adzz, then that doesn't make Sedrick a rogue, since he's responding to hostile action. If there is proof of something before, that may change things. But right now, the public information is Adzz spied, Sedrick responded.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1281456011' post='2409741']
If someone launched spy attacks against one of your alliance mates, you would consider that an act of war. Adzz spied on Sedrick, Sedrick responded to an act of war. If there are no other spy ops prior to the one launched by Adzz, then that doesn't make Sedrick a rogue, since he's responding to hostile action. If there is proof of something before, that may change things. But right now, the public information is Adzz spied, Sedrick responded.
[/quote]

While he was unaligned/being rejected by MHA. If you're interested in facts, surely that point can't be forgotten.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1281456011' post='2409741']
If someone launched spy attacks against one of your alliance mates, you would consider that an act of war. Adzz spied on Sedrick, Sedrick responded to an act of war. If there are no other spy ops prior to the one launched by Adzz, then that doesn't make Sedrick a rogue, since he's responding to hostile action. If there is proof of something before, that may change things. But right now, the public information is Adzz spied, Sedrick responded.
[/quote]
If someone spies on your alliancemate and you know who it is but the spy op doesn't get revealed, and you retaliate, then you started it?

[m3g4tr0n]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1281452230' post='2409658']
Threads, plural. We're at least close to the point where literally everything has been hashed over...over and over again.

And as point of fact screens aren't be-all end-all, fair warning for the future. They're good evidence to have, but a [i]long[/i] ways from perfect.

On the plus side, it's nice that people have stopped trying to actively dispute that NSO doing something Hoo explicitly said was an act of war was a surpassingly retarded thing to do. That was getting old fast.
[/quote]

I'm sure if you were in NSO's position, the last thing you would want are screen shots to support the validity of the war. Why would anyone want that?

It's easy for the aggressor to overlook things like evidence, and assume no one would want it.

[orangbaik]

base on last experaince with RoK

NEW know how good they fight..
full of courage and brave..

so NEW salute RoK

o/ Rok

have fun guys..!!

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281455938' post='2409737']I never said NSO was clean here, they screwed up to. I'm just saying taking this to all out war wreaks of warmongering. I thought the entire basis of the Karma war and everything post that time was to end that sort of behavior. I don't think that was hyperbole, it's a good comparison as far as I'm concerned. You are justifiably allowed to disagree.[/quote]

Remember all the inter-Karma drama during that war? Yeah, that was because a fair number of people within Karma did not agree with the peacenik message that was being sent. You would do well to remember that the next time you want to trot Karma out as a point of reference. To people like me, what you say linking us to Karma is irrelevant, because people like me weren't necessarily supporters of Karma like you think we were.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281457227' post='2409770']
Remember all the inter-Karma drama during that war? Yeah, that was because a fair number of people within Karma did not agree with the peacenik message that was being sent. You would do well to remember that the next time you want to trot Karma out as a point of reference. To people like me, what you say linking us to Karma is irrelevant, because people like me weren't necessarily supporters of Karma like you think we were.
[/quote]
Though we seem to disagree on several things, I must say that I'm impressed with your honesty. Most people that think along the lines which you do would be afraid to say so on the OWF.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281457398' post='2409776']
Though we seem to disagree on several things, I must say that I'm impressed with your honesty. Most people that think along the lines which you do would be afraid to say so on the OWF.
[/quote]

I'm honest to a fault. I'm sure I've given government members fits before and I'm sure I will again, but there's no reason to hide my personal feelings on these issues, especially when people try painting me into a position I don't hold.

I'm not a Karma shill, and I didn't necessarily hate the Hegemony, it just happened that the Hegemony did what they did to my friends and I and as such I didn't endorse them. If I get to participate in some retribution, I'm not too proud to do so. Besides, I've yet to meet a person on Planet Bob that intimidates me, because I view the citizens of my nation as dirt and I don't particularly care if they get bombed to death. What do I have to be afraid of?

Edited August 10, 2010 by Viking

[ironchef]

So what are we looking at here. One round of 5 on 1 $@! kicking and then white peace or are you going for the curb stomp of old and complete annihilation?

[Cable77]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281444168' post='2409544']This paints an interesting picture, especially when you realize that MHA said that he wasn't ghosting their alliance, but instead was applying to it. Apparently MHA is OK with their allies' protectorates launching spy attacks against their applicants.[/quote]

No, we're not "ok" with our applicants being spied. This was handled privately, though.

Also, Rok isn't our ally.

[Aurion]

[quote name='m3g4tr0n' timestamp='1281456428' post='2409750']
I'm sure if you were in NSO's position, the last thing you would want are screen shots to support the validity of the war. Why would anyone want that?
[/quote]

I'd like to think I wouldn't be so ridiculously stupid as to put myself in NSO's position, tbbh.

But the point is well taken- I'm just suspicious in general of things that look perfect.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Aurion

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281455303' post='2409723']
No it isn't. The argument I am making is that it makes absolutely no difference what may have been said or otherwise done to provoke Sedrick, he started aggressive wars and that makes him a rogue. What you and other NSO friends are doing is straw man diversion, because you know they are in the wrong in the core argument.
[/quote]
Defending yourself against a spy attack makes you a rogue?

Maybe I should spy your defcon. Then when you attack me, you'll be a rogue.

Right?

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281458770' post='2409804']
Defending yourself against a spy attack makes you a rogue?

Maybe I should spy your defcon. Then when you attack me, you'll be a rogue.

Right?
[/quote]

If he's unaligned when you do it, yeah, that would make him a rogue. If you do it to him while he has the AA he has, I'll enjoy coming out of peace mode.

[D34th]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281456149' post='2409743']
If someone spies on your alliancemate and you know who it is but the spy op doesn't get revealed, and you retaliate, then you started it?
[/quote]

I'm not fan of circumstantial proof and they aren't the best way to condemn someone.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281456149' post='2409743']
If someone spies on your alliancemate and you know who it is [b]but the spy op doesn't get revealed[/b], and you retaliate, then you started it?
[/quote]

If the spy op does not get revealed, how do you know who it is?

By the logic Viking & Bob Janova are using, Opethian has to be a rogue...somehow I think he would disagree with that. Fighting a war without an affiliation makes you an independant, not a rogue. Now TENE says he is an aid thief of some sort, which combined with the wars he started does make him a rogue. Unfortunately I don't think Sedrick has defended himself publicly, so we only have one side of the story.

The fact that he is now being pounded by the alliance he was selling tech to just recently is horribly hilarious.