Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Wabooz]

I vote for a dance off.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281465214' post='2409962']
I guess that will be discussed between myself and LintWad ... yeah?
[/quote]

Since TENE is the offended party here and RoK is acting at their behest, wouldn't the issue actually lie between Fezor and LindWad?

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Wabooz' timestamp='1281465372' post='2409965']
I vote for a dance off.
[/quote]

A poetry contest would be better.

[Wabooz]

Hmm Viking vs Sith poetry. I can get behind that.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281465435' post='2409966']
Since TENE is the offended party here and RoK is acting at their behest, wouldn't the issue actually lie between Fezor and LindWad?
[/quote]


We declared war due to the NSO aiding a rogue against TENE and Ragnarok despite being warned that Ragnarok would consider it an act of war. TENE, as a relatively young and inexperienced alliance, defer to us in regard to handling negotiations. Their needs and desires as far as this conflict goes are known by us and taken into account during conversations with the New Sith Order.

At the end of the day, it will be between myself and LintWad.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281465811' post='2409975']
We declared war due to the NSO aiding a rogue against TENE and Ragnarok despite being warned that Ragnarok would consider it an act of war. TENE, as a relatively young and inexperienced alliance, defer to us in regard to handling negotiations. Their needs and desires as far as this conflict goes are known by us and taken into account during conversations with the New Sith Order.

At the end of the day, it will be between myself and LintWad.
[/quote]

Eh, since the root of the conflict seems to lie more with them and Sedrick per the posted declarations of war it would seem to make the most sense for them to get some sort of satisfaction out of the ending but it's your call. Figured I'd ask for the sake of being clear on the reasoning. For whatever it's worth, getting Fezor / TENE government to post something to the effect that they're deferring to RoK government in this matter might be worthwhile when the time comes.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281465214' post='2409962']
I guess that will be discussed between myself and LintWad ... yeah?
[/quote]

Thank you for your response to my question Hoo, I will assume then that this was not decided before the DoW was posted. Have fun with your war and this golden opportunity to increase your casualty count.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281466090' post='2409980']
Eh, since the root of the conflict seems to lie more with them and Sedrick per the posted declarations of war it would seem to make the most sense for them to get some sort of satisfaction out of the ending but it's your call. Figured I'd ask for the sake of being clear on the reasoning. For whatever it's worth, getting Fezor / TENE government to post something to the effect that they're deferring to RoK government in this matter might be worthwhile when the time comes.
[/quote]


I don't see why that matters. Ragnarok, TENE, and the NSO are all aware of this and I doubt any of those three alliances care how well informed the rest of the community are.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281466291' post='2409985']
I don't see why that matters. Ragnarok, TENE, and the NSO are all aware of this and I doubt any of those three alliances care how well informed the rest of the community are.
[/quote]

Since all three alliances have taken the time to bring their grievances to this hallowed forum and go into something like ninety collective pages of discussion about them I would think that all three actually do care a fair amount how informed the community at large is. It's a freebie PR suggestion to help avoid more of the "Ragnorok is evil and pulling strings!" stuff, I'll assume you're leaving it since you know what you're doing, etc.

[Daimos]

[quote name='Wabooz' timestamp='1281465500' post='2409968']
Hmm Viking vs Sith poetry. I can get behind that.
[/quote]

a Viking...battle craze beserker who terrorize Cybernation or a Sith...a sect of Force-sensitives who utilized the dark side of the Force. WHO IS DEADLIEST!?

[HeroofTime55]

One thing we have to look at here is motivation and objective: What does RoK seek to gain from this war?

Warfare is, at it's core, a tool, to get what you want when negotiations fail. It is to force compliance from a non compliant party.

The overall flaw with this war has nothing to do with the time line of events surrounding a 4k NS nation, although it does help to illustrate the initial confusion by the NSO.

The flaw lies in the fact that RoK rushed into this war before they could even determine whether or not NSO was willing to be compliant.

The knee jerk reaction response will be "lol, but NSO wasn't compliant when they aided the guy!" but this is a blatant lie. While Heft did indeed make an error in aiding this guy, against the Sith policy of not sending aid until the resolution of conflicts has been achieved, and causing a transgression against RoK knowingly or unknowingly, [i]the NSO swiftly attempted to rectify Heft's error.[/i]

The key thing that people ignore is that this problem is nothing that a day of negotiation could not have solved; Indeed, the act of aiding the guy gave RoK a huge bargaining chip, and they could have potentially walked away with the upwards of $36 million and an apology from the NSO, clearly an advantageous position.

So why would RoK then rush to cause a conflict and completely skip over the opportunities presented had they chosen to negotiate with those superior to Heft? It's simple: [i]They wanted a war from the start.[/i] Reasons why they would want a war are left up to speculation, but the fact that RoK wanted to escalate the situation to blows could not be more obvious.

Now, I fully expect that the response to this is just going to ignore my claims and tout the party line, I am well aware that RoK and it's allies cannot just admit to wanting to rough up NSO, there is no good PR in that. But, surprise me, and maybe actually respond to my points. Maybe I am just the crazy guy holding a "the end is nigh" sign (In before this line gets taken waaaay out of context), but you're going to have to prove that to me. Holding your fingers in your ears, Going "Nananana," and then yelling "But he was a rogue lol!" do not do this because they make no effort to address my points, they have nothing to do with my point and I in fact agree that he was a rogue and that aiding him was a mistake, even an act of war on RoK.

What is so special about this case, as opposed to things like this happening on a regular basis and peaceful solutions being negotiated, that absolutely demanded war as the only course, when RoK stood to profit greatly from the negotiations sought by the Sith? Other than smashing NSO for fun, which is the only motive I can think of at the moment.

Edited August 10, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Wabooz' timestamp='1281465372' post='2409965']
I vote for a dance off.
[/quote]

I second this.

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281466477' post='2409989']
Since all three alliances have taken the time to bring their grievances to this hallowed forum and go into something like ninety collective pages of discussion about them I would think that all three actually do care a fair amount how informed the community at large is. It's a freebie PR suggestion to help avoid more of the "Ragnorok is evil and pulling strings!" stuff, I'll assume you're leaving it since you know what you're doing, etc.
[/quote]

We really dont, the community at large would make it into the !@#$%^&* you've seen in the collective 100+ pages of unneeded !@#$%^&*.

Edit: And yes, HeroofTime does all of our thinking for us.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Acca Dacca

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281466477' post='2409989']
Since all three alliances have taken the time to bring their grievances to this hallowed forum and go into something like ninety collective pages of discussion about them I would think that all three actually do care a fair amount how informed the community at large is. It's a freebie PR suggestion to help avoid more of the "Ragnorok is evil and pulling strings!" stuff, I'll assume you're leaving it since you know what you're doing, etc.
[/quote]


I don't see "ninety collective pages" from the NSO, Ragnarok, and TENE. RoK and TENE posted their DoWs and the NSO posted their decree. I doubt you see more threads started by any of those alliances as negotiations don't typically occur via the OWF.

I understand your curiosity, and I hope you don't take offense when I say this, but I don't really care how well informed you are.

[magicninja]

I heard it was reps and two weeks of battle agreed to but then rescinded by RoK. So I guess it's back to square one.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281467185' post='2410001']
The overall flaw with this war has nothing to do with the time line of events surrounding a 4k NS nation, although it does help to illustrate the initial confusion by the NSO.

The flaw lies in the fact that RoK rushed into this war before they could even determine whether or not NSO was willing to be compliant.
[/quote]

There is no flaw. Rok and NSO have no great love for each other, NSO for various reasons made the mistake of handing Rok a golden opportuinty for a clean CB....and it's been a very boring Summer. Now all that remains is cleaning up the resultant mess.

Just because they could have let diplomacy take it's course, does not mean they HAVE to.

@Van Hoo III: Considering they are your protectorate, maybe you should let Fezor in on those meetings? To give him a chance to see how the Big Boyz do things? I speak as a former protectorate myself, I'm sure he would enjoy it.

[Adam Suttler]

Maybe I'm getting too old in this game, but I'd say that declarations are getting more and more pathetic as time goes on. Back in the day, declarations were made due to large disputes between alliances, concerning some sort of goal, ideology, or simply to destroy the competition. Now, it seems that people are looking for the smallest, insignificant reason to bicker and fight amongst themselves like a bunch of bratty five-year-olds.

Excuse me for being naive in this case, but why couldn't TENE handle one rogue? Personally, I don't see the point of getting RoK involved with a rogue that should've been managed by TENE in the first place. Honestly, I refuse to believe that this guy was too much for the alliance to handle.

My second point leads me to the part where the aforementioned rogue joined NSO. As I remember correctly, it is usually up to the receiving alliance to handle any sort of outstanding military affairs of their recruits. I highly doubt that the admissions staff of NSO just let Sedrick's wars/military activities pass without some sort of lecture or reparations payment to the victims. If they decided that a non-military solution was possible, they should have pursued it in accordance with TENE. Whatever happened, I'm just speculating on a possible series of events.

Why RoK is always starting unnecessary and avoidable conflicts is a mystery to me. There is no question that Sedrick is at fault for this series of events, and he should be punished accordingly for his actions. Is ZI, or whatever other consequences RoK has planned for him, the answer? Perhaps; perhaps not. A financial solution could've been the answer, in order to compensate for TENE's loss. Whether that was on NSO's agenda or not, I don't know.

Quite frankly, I don't know why RoK goes through all this trouble to hack at a rogue. Of course they're annoying as hell, but must you really follow one to the ends of the earth simply to kill him? In all honesty, he's NSO's problem now. If he tries to pull the same crap on some other alliance, he will undoubtedly be ZI'd (I think there should be some sort of global rogue list, so that people don't have to deal with crap like this on a regular basis. It'd be rather hard to maintain, and possibly flawed, but it could potentially help deter this kind of BS).

Conclusively, there is no real statement to sum up the absolute stupidity of this !@#$% war RoK is pulling off. Perhaps there's an ulterior motive to their declaration on NSO. But to declare simply to polish off a rogue is utter nonsense.



[i]tl;dr : RoK's basis of war is BS. Could've prevented conflict but didn't, raising questions of their true intent of declaration. TENE should've taken this into their own hands. Sedrick is obviously to blame, but maybe could've been rehabilitated into learning from mistakes; if not, handed over to TENE to be dealt with. NSO just got caught up in Hoo's warmongering thirst for conquest, almost pointlessly. I am awesome. Fin.[/i]

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281467380' post='2410007']
I don't see "ninety collective pages" from the NSO, Ragnarok, and TENE. RoK and TENE posted their DoWs and the NSO posted their decree. I doubt you see more threads started by any of those alliances as negotiations don't typically occur via the OWF.
[/quote]

We'll see. We're seeing newer ones popping up as well as some decent-pace posting from RoK and NSO here. Whether or not the commentary is contained in existing lines or in new threads really doesn't matter.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281467380' post='2410007']
I understand your curiosity, and I hope you don't take offense when I say this, but I don't really care how well informed you are.
[/quote]

None taken - I have one of those good feelings that this sentiment of yours might be memorable on a future occasion.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281467606' post='2410012']
I heard it was reps and two weeks of battle agreed to but then rescinded by RoK. So I guess it's back to square one.
[/quote]

Excellent, more rumor and conjecture which leads absolutely nowhere. How delightful.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Ferrozoica Hive

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Mirreille' timestamp='1281468064' post='2410018']
There is no flaw. Rok and NSO have no great love for each other, NSO for various reasons made the mistake of handing Rok a golden opportuinty for a clean CB....and it's been a very boring Summer. Now all that remains is cleaning up the resultant mess.

Just because they could have let diplomacy take it's course, does not mean they HAVE to.

@Van Hoo III: Considering they are your protectorate, maybe you should let Fezor in on those meetings? To give him a chance to see how the Big Boyz do things? I speak as a former protectorate myself, I'm sure he would enjoy it.
[/quote]
Well yes, that's pretty much what I'm arguing, that RoK was bored and just wanted to give out a good old fashioned curbie. It's hardly justification for the act, though.

I do hold however that you are required to let diplomacy run it's course, because if you don't, your [i]Casus Belli[/i], your "case for war," is inadequate. If the NSO was actively seeking a nonviolent, diplomatic approach, which RoK willfully and intentionally ignored, they have no "case for war."

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281469071' post='2410041']
If the NSO was actively seeking a nonviolent, diplomatic approach, which RoK willfully and intentionally ignored, they have no "case for war."
[/quote]

Actually, they do. It's called "making a point" or "setting a precedent". The might-makes-right method of conflict resolution as well as the practice of gunboat diplomacy within the 'verse is time-honored and well established.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281469071' post='2410041']
Well yes, that's pretty much what I'm arguing, that RoK was bored and just wanted to give out a good old fashioned curbie. It's hardly justification for the act, though.
[/quote]

Keep repeating it, it might eventually make it true.

Oh wait. No it won't.

[quote]
I do hold however that you are required to let diplomacy run it's course, because if you don't, your [i]Casus Belli[/i], your "case for war," is inadequate. If the NSO was actively seeking a nonviolent, diplomatic approach, which RoK willfully and intentionally ignored, they have no "case for war."
[/quote]

That's fine, hold whatever you want, I hold that aiding one of my enemies after I tell you aiding him will mean I go to war with you will get you a DoW from me. NSO actively sought an incident, and when they got one they discovered they bit off more than they can chew.

There is no invaidating that. NSO sent money to someone at war, after being explicitly warned not to do so. NSO decided it'd be hilarious to thumb their noses at Rok over a rogue. Not laughing any more are they?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281469296' post='2410046']
Actually, they do. It's called "making a point" or "setting a precedent". The might-makes-right method of conflict resolution as well as the practice of gunboat diplomacy within the 'verse is time-honored and well established.
[/quote]Is this a precedent that we want to set however, that the instant you commit the tiniest of infractions you have no hope to even try to negotiate a peaceful solution? It is certainly not a precedent that I want to see set.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281469543' post='2410048']
Keep repeating it, it might eventually make it true.

Oh wait. No it won't.



That's fine, hold whatever you want, I hold that aiding one of my enemies after I tell you aiding him will mean I go to war with you will get you a DoW from me. NSO actively sought an incident, and when they got one they discovered they bit off more than they can chew.

There is no invaidating that. NSO sent money to someone at war, after being explicitly warned not to do so. NSO decided it'd be hilarious to thumb their noses at Rok over a rogue. Not laughing any more are they?
[/quote]Feel free to respond to my main post on the previous page rather than interject into a discussion with someone else and take a response out of context, thanks.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281469555' post='2410050']
Is this a precedent that we want to set however, that the instant you commit the tiniest of infractions you have no hope to even try to negotiate a peaceful solution? It is certainly not a precedent that I want to see set.
[/quote]

So don't. Ragnorok and, through them, The Empire of the New Evolution are setting the one they want to set, assuming that's the aim here. It's their prerogative as sovereign alliances to do so. If you don't want to set the same for 64digits then don't. As Hoo has clearly stated, he really doesn't care what others think in regards to the pursuit of the current conflict.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1281469732' post='2410055']
So don't. Ragnorok and, through them, The Empire of the New Evolution are setting the one they want to set, assuming that's the aim here. It's their prerogative as sovereign alliances to do so. If you don't want to set the same for 64digits then don't. As Hoo has clearly stated, he really doesn't care what others think in regards to the pursuit of the current conflict.
[/quote]
And it's my prerogative, as the leader of a sovereign alliance that is, apparently, on the receiving end of the target range, to strongly protest precedents that provide a direct threat to the security of my alliance. Incidentally, I also don't care what Hoo thinks, I seek to unmask the truth and convince people that the course Ragnarok has taken is unacceptable. Because the reality of the matter is, we all do care what the rest of the world thinks about our actions. People caring is why Karma went the way it did. To deny that is to be ignorant of reality.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281470114' post='2410063']
And it's my prerogative, as the leader of a sovereign alliance that is, apparently, on the receiving end of the target range, to strongly protest precedents that provide a direct threat to the security of my alliance. Incidentally, I also don't care what Hoo thinks, I seek to unmask the truth and convince people that the course Ragnarok has taken is unacceptable. Because the reality of the matter is, we all do care what the rest of the world thinks about our actions. People caring is why Karma went the way it did. To deny that is to be ignorant of reality.
[/quote]

Ah ha. Just to make my stance clear, using phrases like "To deny that is to be ignorant of reality" is akin to "We hold these truths to be self-evident" - it's you or whomever basically saying that if the other person doesn't agree with your point they're blind, stupid or a totally backward idiot. Reality, as it were, it what the collective community of the 'verse decides it to be, nothing more, nothing less. These phrases are cliche, unproductive and (if the reader actually recognizes them for what they are) pretty insulting. You don't want to go and insult those you're attempt to change the minds of, I hope.

To your point, certainly, you're entitled to repeat your stand for morality or whatever banner it is you're flying here about the actions of Ragnorok. Good, bad or indifferent, what they and their allies have done here is already in motion. It cannot be changed, it cannot be taken back and short of some massed spontaneous crusade on the scale of the Karma War you're really not going to see anything change here except for the screaming. There are interesting observations to be made, actions to be noted and things said to be remembered [i]for another time[/i]. I understand the point you're trying to make. Hell, I'll go so far as to agree with the spirit of it. I'm simply attempting to convey that you're wasting your time right now and might want to wait for a better platform to be constructed before wasting your ammo now. That's another little freebie PR tidbit offered today.