Ragnarok Declaration of War

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Adrian LaCroix' timestamp='1281573136' post='2411796']
An act of war against TENE is an act of war against RoK, if you read the protectorate agreement.
[/quote]This is some of the flavor text I was talking about in my response to Ashoka. It is no different from the fact that Hoo cannot arbitrarily claim something is an act of war when it isn't. What an act of war is, is not dictated by treaties or individuals, it is an abstract that exists separate from these. What it is, how these standards are set, I cannot say for sure, but I can say what it is not.

For example, if I tell your alliance that aiding you is an act of war on mine, it does not make it true.

Similarly, if I write as such into a treaty, it also does not make it true.

It is fanciful text with the meaning: "An attack on TENE grants RoK a valid Casus Belli, and RoK is contractually obligated to defend TENE from such attack." Please note that there is a difference between an 'attack' and an 'act of war.' The former is an member of a larger group of items identified by the latter.

Edited August 12, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Adrian LaCroix]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281574451' post='2411825']
This is some of the flavor text I was talking about in my response to Ashoka. It is no different from the fact that Hoo cannot arbitrarily claim something is an act of war when it isn't. What an act of war is, is not dictated by treaties or individuals, it is an abstract that exists separate from these. What it is, how these standards are set, I cannot say for sure, but I can say what it is not.

For example, if I tell your alliance that aiding you is an act of war on mine, it does not make it true.

Similarly, if I write as such into a treaty, it also does not make it true.

It is fanciful text with the meaning: "An attack on TENE grants RoK a valid Casus Belli, and RoK is contractually obligated to defend TENE from such attack." Please note that there is a difference between an 'attack' and an 'act of war.' The former is an member of a larger group of items identified by the latter.
[/quote]

The text of the treaty defines how the treaty and the relationship between the alliances in question work, I dare say. You can claim it means nothing, but that's a fairly silly thing to allege.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281566830' post='2411662']
Oh gosh, I was sort of hoping you'd show up in one of these threads.

Your ears must be burning. For the last couple of days, I've been using your former alliance as an example of what a good ally is like. (I may not have been on your side of the web at the time, but you sure showed a lot of people 'how it's done'.)
[/quote]
My Stumpy senses were tingling.

[Mongrel]

This reminds me of the old saying I used to hear as a kid. "It doesn't matter what the gift is, it's the thought that matters." Heft you fail. Have fun with this.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Adrian LaCroix' timestamp='1281574817' post='2411836']
The text of the treaty defines how the treaty and the relationship between the alliances in question work, I dare say. You can claim it means nothing, but that's a fairly silly thing to allege.
[/quote]I did not claim it means nothing. I claimed that writing something down does not make it true. The world would be pretty awesome if you could just write stuff down and it became a reality, but that's not how it works.

Just like Hoo is not god and he cannot dictate things to make them a reality. Although admittedly some people seem to think he is, including Hoo himself.

Edited August 12, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Burning Glory]

MY OPINION.....This sounds like a bunch of " he said, she said " BS! Far as I can tell and unless I missed it some where, THERE IS NO PROOF the so called Rouge nation spied on the Tene nation.
With that said and even if it were true, Ragnarok should have produced evidence to back up such claims before attacking NSO and made all possible attempts to get it handled diplomatically.

Just remember, sooner or later "what comes around goes around"


BG.

[ShadowChaos]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281577803' post='2411913']
I did not claim it means nothing. I claimed that writing something down does not make it true. The world would be pretty awesome if you could just write stuff down and it became a reality, but that's not how it works.

Just like Hoo is not god and he cannot dictate things to make them a reality. Although admittedly some people seem to think he is, including Hoo himself.
[/quote]

Oh? So you're claiming that Protectorates isn't true, and that we (RoK) don't need to defend the signatory alliances of Ragnablok, a Protectorate Blok. Am I right then?


[quote name='Burning Glory' timestamp='1281578098' post='2411917']
MY OPINION.....This sounds like a bunch of " he said, she said " BS! Far as I can tell and unless I missed it some where, THERE IS NO PROOF the so called Rouge nation spied on the Tene nation.
With that said and even if it were true, Ragnarok should have produced evidence to back up such claims before attacking NSO and made all possible attempts to get it handled diplomatically.

Just remember, sooner or later "what comes around goes around"


BG.
[/quote]

There is Proof that the Rogue is attacking TENE, an alliance in Ragnablok, a Protectorate Blok.

[b]EDIT[/b]: And there's also Proof that NSO aided the Rogue after Hoo said he would declare war if they (NSO) aided the rogue.

Edited August 12, 2010 by ShadowChaos

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281577803' post='2411913']
I did not claim it means nothing. I claimed that writing something down does not make it true. The world would be pretty awesome if you could just write stuff down and it became a reality, but that's not how it works.

Just like Hoo is not god and he cannot dictate things to make them a reality. Although admittedly some people seem to think he is, including Hoo himself.
[/quote]

An act of war against TENE is an act of war against RoK. We know this is true and not false because RoK declared war on NSO. Why you're claiming the wording means something different is beyond me.

e- I think the post I quoted is the most absurd line of thinking I've heard yet in this conflict.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Viking

[Heft]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281579279' post='2411981']
An act of war against TENE is an act of war against RoK. We know this is true and not false because RoK declared war on NSO. Why you're claiming the wording means something different is beyond me.
[/quote]
Okay this argument is dumb but somehow has to defend basic logic.

RoK declaring war on us, or anyone, does not prove anything about whether an attack on TENE is an act of war against RoK. That whole statement is just a pile of mush, really.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281579493' post='2411990']
Okay this argument is dumb but somehow has to defend basic logic.

RoK declaring war on us, or anyone, does not prove anything about whether an attack on TENE is an act of war against RoK. That whole statement is just a pile of mush, really.
[/quote]

If you keep thinking that, maybe the war will disappear. Maybe.

[ShadowChaos]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281579493' post='2411990']
Okay this argument is dumb but somehow has to defend basic logic.

RoK declaring war on us, or anyone, does not prove anything about whether an attack on TENE is an act of war against RoK. That whole statement is just a pile of mush, really.
[/quote]

Actually, it does. read the Ragnablok.

The rogue attacking a protectorate, in this case TENE, is an attack on Ragnarok. If you didn't want war, then you should've waited for your proof before ordering your alliance to aid the rogue. You were told that if you aided the rogue, Hoo would declare war on you.


Now stop complaining and fight.

Edited August 12, 2010 by ShadowChaos

[Heft]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281579634' post='2411995']
If you keep thinking that, maybe the war will disappear. Maybe.
[/quote]
[quote name='ShadowChaos' timestamp='1281579981' post='2412006']
Actually, it does. read the Ragnablok.

The rogue attacking a protectorate, in this case TENE, is an attack on Ragnarok. If you didn't want war, then you should've waited for your proof before ordering your alliance to aid the rogue.
[/quote]
Okay I'll be clearer this time.

My point was that, logically, RoK declaring war on us only, inherently, proves that RoK declared war on us. In this particular case, if RoK had declared war because we committed an act of war against TENE in their eyes then that would just prove that RoK considers such a thing an act of war on RoK, not that it actually is.

Although, as I understand it that's not why RoK declared war, so it doesn't even do that.

[Heft]

[quote name='ShadowChaos' timestamp='1281579981' post='2412006']
Now stop complaining and fight.
[/quote]
You seriously edited your post just to say that? Because this is usually a dumb thing to say but considering it has absolutely nothing to do with what you were quoting it's just incredibly obvious that you're throwing out these recycled barbs because you don't have anything worthwhile or original to add to the conversation.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1281570014' post='2411727']
Somehow I don't see NSO booting gov members when one of their main points is that they don't abandon their members.
[/quote]
Booting from the alliance and firing from gov are two very different things.

One thing that NSO has made clear is that they do fire their gov members when they screw up. Chron and Ivan are two of the most recent high-profile removals in NSO high gov.

[Burning Glory]

[quote name='ShadowChaos' timestamp='1281578955' post='2411967']
Oh? So you're claiming that Protectorates isn't true, and that we (RoK) don't need to defend the signatory alliances of Ragnablok, a Protectorate Blok. Am I right then?




There is Proof that the Rogue is attacking TENE, an alliance in Ragnablok, a Protectorate Blok.

[b]EDIT[/b]: And there's also Proof that NSO aided the Rogue after Hoo said he would declare war if they (NSO) aided the rogue.
[/quote]

There is justification in the attacks of the Tene nation;

22:04] <Heft> [u]Your protectorate spied on him and threatened him with war
[/u][22:04] <Heft> I believe Heggo told Rampage this earlier
11[22:05] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Your new member spied first, and threatened war as well
11[22:05] <VanHooIII[RoK]> He then went rogue on multiple TENE nations
11[22:05] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We'd rather him settle this before joining a new alliance
[22:06] <Heft> [u]I haven't seen any claims that he spied on them. The only evidence we have establishes TENE committing an act of war upon him first

[/u]
It was established that He was spied on first and thus attacked the Tene nations in retaliation as he had the right to do.
The counter argument was that he spied first thus the spied attacks on him, yet no proof was shown or found.
The ball was in Hoo's court to show just cause...he failed to do so and at the very least he made no attempts to pursue diplomacy.

No matter what AA your in or who's side your on...Wrong is Wrong.

BG.

[NoFish]

[quote name='Burning Glory' timestamp='1281581674' post='2412064']
There is justification in the attacks of the Tene nation;

22:04] <Heft> [u]Your protectorate spied on him and threatened him with war
[/u][22:04] <Heft> I believe Heggo told Rampage this earlier
11[22:05] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Your new member spied first, and threatened war as well
11[22:05] <VanHooIII[RoK]> He then went rogue on multiple TENE nations
11[22:05] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We'd rather him settle this before joining a new alliance
[22:06] <Heft> [u]I haven't seen any claims that he spied on them. The only evidence we have establishes TENE committing an act of war upon him first

[/u]
It was established that He was spied on first and thus attacked the Tene nations in retaliation as he had the right to do.
The counter argument was that he spied first thus the spied attacks on him, yet no proof was shown or found.
The ball was in Hoo's court to show just cause...he failed to do so and at the very least he made no attempts to pursue diplomacy.

No matter what AA your in or who's side your on...Wrong is Wrong.

BG.
[/quote]
So your argument, if I am correct, is that while sedrik was unaligned TENE started a fight with him. The he joined NSO while the fight was going on and NSO decided to support him in his fight against TENE. Is this an accurate summation?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='ShadowChaos' timestamp='1281578955' post='2411967']
Oh? So you're claiming that Protectorates isn't true, and that we (RoK) don't need to defend the signatory alliances of Ragnablok, a Protectorate Blok. Am I right then?[/quote]You are nowhere near correct.

You have a contractual obligation to defend your protectorate, but an attack on TENE is not an attack on RoK, the treaty does not confer some transitive property onto warfare. Furthermore, military attack, which the treaty specifies, is a separate act of war from the act of aiding enemies.

Therefore, no act of war was committed onto RoK, only onto TENE.

This would be different had RoK contacted NSO before attacking the nation, and asked NSO to release him for attack. In fact they didn't really need NSO's permission, they merely needed to explain why the guy was an enemy of RoK. They couldn't do even that.

Edited August 12, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[ShadowChaos]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281583529' post='2412113']
You are nowhere near correct.

You have a contractual obligation to defend your protectorate, but an attack on TENE is not an attack on RoK, the treaty does not confer some transitive property onto warfare. Furthermore, military attack, which the treaty specifies, is a separate act of war from the act of aiding enemies.

Therefore, no act of war was committed onto RoK, only onto TENE.

This would be different had RoK contacted NSO before attacking the nation, and asked NSO to release him for attack. In fact they didn't really need NSO's permission, they merely needed to explain why the guy was an enemy of RoK. They couldn't do even that.
[/quote]
That's where you're wrong. It states in the Ragnablok that [b]An attack on any of the undersigned protectorates will be considered an attack on Ragnarok[/b]. Read [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Ragnablok#III._Protection_and_Defense:]Article III[/url] of Ragnablok before you post.

[caligula]

So your argument is that this war is somehow unjust because NSO committed an act of war against TENE, RoK's protectorate, and not RoK.

[Adrian LaCroix]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281583529' post='2412113']
You are nowhere near correct.

You have a contractual obligation to defend your protectorate, but an attack on TENE is not an attack on RoK, the treaty does not confer some transitive property onto warfare. Furthermore, military attack, which the treaty specifies, is a separate act of war from the act of aiding enemies.

Therefore, no act of war was committed onto RoK, only onto TENE.

This would be different had RoK contacted NSO before attacking the nation, and asked NSO to release him for attack. In fact they didn't really need NSO's permission, they merely needed to explain why the guy was an enemy of RoK. They couldn't do even that.
[/quote]

...what? The treaty means what it says. You can wax pseudo-intellectual about the properties of war until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the simple legal reality of the situation.

[cookavich]

I love a good throwback, and HeroofTime making a fool of himself is about as good as any. Welcome to 2009 (and 2008)!

[Denial]

Rather than sift through fifty pages of drivel, I'll just wish our allies in Ragnarok best of luck waging a war that was triggered by and based upon a clear-cut, solid [i]casus belli[/i].

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='ShadowChaos' timestamp='1281591691' post='2412345']
That's where you're wrong. It states in the Ragnablok that [b]An attack on any of the undersigned protectorates will be considered an attack on Ragnarok[/b]. Read [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Ragnablok#III._Protection_and_Defense:]Article III[/url] of Ragnablok before you post.
[/quote]"Will be considered" and "Is" are two entirely separate concepts. The former basically grants a license for RoK to respond, and then contractually obliges it. The latter claims to alter reality.

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281592116' post='2412352']
So your argument is that this war is somehow unjust because NSO committed an act of war against TENE, RoK's protectorate, and not RoK.


[/quote]I am arguing that RoK's rationale for skirting around the diplomatic process is invalid. It is the skirting around diplomacy that makes the war unjust.

Basically, Hoo's ego got bruised when Heft ordered the aid, which was not an act of war on RoK just because Hoo claims it is. That's about the most generous scenario I can give as to why RoK might have skipped diplomacy. The reality is that they probably just wanted war for war's sake.

That's the key thing. The strongest argument coming from the other side of the table is "But Hoo said it was an act of war!" and I mean to demonstrate that Hoo was incorrect in his assessment.

Edited August 12, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281580907' post='2412040']
Booting from the alliance and firing from gov are two very different things.

One thing that NSO has made clear is that they do fire their gov members when they screw up. Chron and Ivan are two of the most recent high-profile removals in NSO high gov.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Ivan was never fired. He stepped down voluntarily. Just figured I would point that out to avoid any future misunderstandings.[/color]

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

~you know what, nevermind!~

Edited August 12, 2010 by Alfred von Tirpitz