Spy Rolls Poll

[iamthey]

Proposal:

As many are aware the current spy system has been the subject of wide abuse, and a large portion of the community has voiced support in scaling it back. In large part Spy rolls have been used in place of actual RP, and have been more of a 'free pass' for an Rper to do whatever they want, than an enhancement or balancing aspect of the game.

It is my personal view that espionage acts should in large part be RP driven, and that success or failure should be based on a number of factors (beyond a coin flip). For example, it should be fairly easy for someone to sneak into a country and detonate a car bomb, on the other hand it should be much more difficult for them to sneak into a supersecretspecial government vault.

While this proposal does not encompass every possibility under the sun, we think it should scale back some of the abuse.

[quote]1: RP is required for any spy operation. Be it an agent sneaking into a complex, or hacking a computer.
2: Spyrolls cover only certain aspects of a mission; Picking locks, hacking computers, sneaking past a camera system, etc.
3: Any spyroll can be voided by previous RP. You cannot instantly pick a lock into a room if there are two doors, it would take two rolls. You cannot sneak past an array of cameras that point in all directions. A satellite cannot pick up movements that are sufficiently hidden. A sufficiently encrypted message cannot be read if enough RP has gone into the coding. Etc.[/quote]

[Centurius]

Sounds good to me

[Lynneth]

I approve.

[Voodoo Nova]

I agree.

How will one determine what defenses are set up and what defenses are made up on the spot?

[Il Terra Di Agea]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1281187729' post='2403668']
I agree.

How will one determine what defenses are set up and what defenses are made up on the spot?
[/quote]
As per rule number three, it all depends on previous RP. You would need to prove that you RPed a greater level of defense. However, a certain level falls into the "common sense" category; Like having a password on a computer, or lock on a door. If you want to void a spyroll though, you have to RP out exactly how you are defended against such an attack.

[Sargun II]

Er, all someone has to do is set up more than four defenses and suddenly it takes three days for somebody to do something that could be relatively simple. This reforms won't work unless you lift the 2-per-day limit.

[Biohazard]

While I agree with parts of the proposal, I think that as a whole, it's asking too much from the community/RPer. Not to say that the original system wasn't full of loopholes, or abuse, but this 'new' one that's been proposed shares its own amount of problems. The main one being, RPing each individual spy 'action' [picking a lock, sneaking past a camera] will not work out, ever, and I can tell you why: lack of respect. Not lack of respect towards a player, but lack of respect towards a player's actions.

Before I get too heavily into that, I'd like to point out that, even though the original system was abused by many, it was also the best thing we could have for spy rolls: absolutism. When a person conducted a spy roll, and won, they *knew* what was going to happen - there was no alternative outcome, nothing that could change the outcome; whatever was done [i]after[/i] a spy roll, was subject to change, but the initial objective was completed. The spy roll system, while abused, gave us that sense of absolutism that we needed.

In contrast, this spy roll system is more in favor of an RP/submissive/compliant system. Not necessarily a bad thing, because, hey, it advocates more detailed RP, right? For once, I'm totally against that idea. In this spy roll system, there are two things that complicate it, much further than the loop holes and abuses that the first one brought to the table. The first part being that, this requires a great deal of accurate up-to-date knowledge of the installation you wish to sabotage. Assuming player B (whom is the defender) has RP'd the installation heavily, you won't know what to find/RP there (as Player A, the aggressor). Aside from the obvious loop hole of Player B making up insane defenses on the spot, this ties more into the respect thing that I mentioned earlier. Once more, I'll get to that soon. The second thing that's wrong with this proposed system, is that it's not practical. Spy rolls were used and abused because they were practical, because they worked, because if you won, your initial objective was completed. This system emphasizes compliance, not only on the defender's side, but on the aggressor's side as well. Think about it. When do people mostly use spy rolls? During war. Now, during a war, it becomes impractical to RP every installation, every possible defense, all the doors leading into the installation, and so on, so forth, etc. No, because the majority of people who conduct RP war do not want to have to plan things out further then they have to, because they want the war to accomplish their agendas, as fast as possible. Even as the aggressor, it's impractical to perform spy rolls like this. Do you start a new thread? Do you simply just RP the installation, and the infiltration in the same thread? Even then, what happens after you succeed/fail? This entire system is impractical, and people will not want to RP every single move that their spy makes. I agree with them, too. Why should we have to? Why is it that we must, [i]must[/i] RP when they turn around a corner, to dodge a camera, and what not? For the most part, I agree with Sargun's post.

The other thing that I find, that largely makes this proposal unacceptable as the norm, to me, is the respect of the player's actions. Aside from the impractical need to completely RP out every possible defense, the aggressor then has to RP [i]against[/i] that defense. In a battle of wills, on CNRP, the norm is that neither person is willing to budge. I can foresee GM decisions being made, because one user apparently 'godmodded' his way to victory or defeat; and it's true, neither side will want to win, and they will do whatever they can, to make sure that the other person doesn't succeed - which, again, ties into the respect of the player. The defender has it much easier than the aggressor; he's RP'd the impractical defenses, and now he can simply send out a patrol and bam, aggressor is found, end of spy attempt. Failure.

What I think needs to be done, is first, to lift the 2-spy rolls a day rule, and replace it with perhaps 2-spy rolls every three days, or some larger amount. This would force people to be more creative, or tactical, with their spy rolls. You can't just spy-roll spam every day, and then reap the benefits that follows with it. Another thing that could be used to help cut down on the spy roll spam, is divide the type of spy rolls that a person can do, into various groups. That way, people know what they are doing, instead of possibly using some hammer of god spy roll attempt that could cripple an entire nation, only to have it retconned or complained against simply because a) respect or b) (more likely), it was a godmod.

[Zarfef]

I would support these new systems... however... a bit of statistics.

Consider the following situations,

A - The player uses the old spy roll system, and has a 90% chance of success as given by the IG screen-shot. The situation is almost guaranteed to go in their favor.

B - The player uses the new spy roll system and places a camera next to the vault, a lock and armed guards. Now three spy rolls are required and they have a probability of .9*.9*.9 = 72.9% chance of success. So now things are a little more balanced and that sounds cool.

C - The player uses the new spy roll system and places a camera next to the vault, a lock on the vault, armed guards, trip-wire defenses, mine-fields, flying robot buzz-saw things, a left-out cheese-burger with a camera in it, sound-detection devices, people walking out of bathrooms unexpectedly, the handy man doing work in the ventilation system... and a baggage checker at the air-port. Now the new spy-roll system says that the spy has a 0.9^11 = 31.4% chance of success.

In other words, independent of how good your enemie's spy system is, you can still reduce the spies effective chances of success by simply RPing more obstacles to their objective. The more obstacles you RP, the more likely you are to succeed in thwarting the enemies spy attacks. Of course, I like RPing all kinds of stuff and this would hence go greatly in my favor so fire away ... but for good RP I think some kind of other limitations should be put in place. Spies cost nothing to upkeep and are simply things that big nations buy when they get the money. It really all depends upon who has the money and who doesn't. To be honest, few RPers actually RP their 500+ spies going about doing things, so it's not a reflection of IG effects anyways. There may even be an under-dog advantage in spy rolls IG anyways, meaning you have superior odds but loose big time in terms of spies (which are EXPENSIVE!).

Frankly, I prefer to simply RP it out and leave the spy rolls out altogether.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Zarfef

[Bacharth]

I for one think that this is complete and utter !@#$%^&*. This is a national, not a character RP. This turns it into a character RP if you have to make a thread for a spy mission. One spy roll for an entire operation, but there should be a post detailing exactly what happened.

Whatever I'm on the losing side anyway.

[Kevin Kingswell]

What about instant failures for spy rolls? What I mean is if you fail to achieve your spy roll then you isntantly fail and possibly get caught depending on what you are attempting. For example if you are simply hacking a nation's computer network then if you fail then maybe the hacker's location is revealed to the attacked nation or if you are actually attempting to infiltrate with spys then that spy/spy team are discovered and have to fight their way out.

Now this suggestion may seem harsh and it is but right now many people, including myself have asked for and gotten spy rolls and then failed and done nothing about it at all. All they do is sit back and wait for tomorrow now with this suggestion you have consequences to your spy rolls.

Of course just because you get caught doesn't mean its game over. This isn't Metal Gear Solid after all. Instead it leaves you with a situation which you need to rp out where you are in fact now on the defensive. Maybe you hacker gets detected so you have to rp his or her attempt to quickly cut the connection to avoid revealing too much information, your spy needs to fight their way out of the enemy security forces to freedom.

Either way this suggestion of mine would hopefully decrease the number of spam attacks without requiring a major overhaul of the current spy system.

[HHAYD]

Current spy system: Favors people with high percentage.

Proposed spy system: Favors the defender since they can constantly RP new defenses and potentially god-mode their way to happiness.

My opinion: There is going to be a lot of "GOD MODE!" cries if the new spy system is thrown in. If you RPed lots of defenses beforehand, good for you, current spy system should not apply. If you didn't RP any defenses, current spy system should apply. Basically a blend of both spy systems.

[Bacharth]

I agree with Kevin. If we want to stop spy roll spam, make some consequences. Here, here are some possible consequences:

1. Capture of a spy, and the revealing of military stuff.
2. Spy becomes a double agent, and the other side gets an auto-win spyroll against you.
3. Spy network compromised, can no longer make spy rolls against anyone for the remainder of the war.

There, there are some good consequences. Please, please, do NOT make this into another stupid 16 year old girl proboards RP site.

[quote name='HHAYD' timestamp='1281209730' post='2403881']
Current spy system: Favors people with high percentage.

Proposed spy system: Favors the defender since they can constantly RP new defenses and potentially god-mode their way to happiness.

My opinion: There is going to be a lot of "GOD MODE!" cries if the new spy system is thrown in. If you RPed lots of defenses beforehand, good for you, current spy system should not apply. If you didn't RP any defenses, current spy system should apply. Basically a blend of both spy systems.
[/quote]

This too. It's going to be just like the current war system.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Vince Sixx

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Vince Sixx' timestamp='1281209851' post='2403884']
I agree with Kevin. If we want to stop spy roll spam, make some consequences. Here, here are some possible consequences:

1. Capture of a spy, and the revealing of military stuff.
2. Spy becomes a double agent, and the other side gets an auto-win spyroll against you.
3. Spy network compromised, can no longer make spy rolls against anyone for the remainder of the war.

There, there are some good consequences. Please, please, do NOT make this into another stupid 16 year old girl proboards RP site.



This too. It's going to be just like the current war system.
[/quote]

What if the spy rolls are not for war? The auto-win also seems like a massive god-mode because then they could do something like destroying a nuke without any RP towards it.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1281210568' post='2403897']
What if the spy rolls are not for war? The auto-win also seems like a massive god-mode because then they could do something like destroying a nuke without any RP towards it.
[/quote]

Obviouslly the one you picked out is one of [u]many[/u] possible consequences. The consequences would vary depending upon the situation, like as I pointed out earlier a hcaker attack failing could lead to it being traced, or cut off or even allowed to go through just with the defenders watching.

There are many possible options avaliable.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Kevin Kingswell

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' timestamp='1281210938' post='2403907']
Obviouslly the one you picked out is one of [u]many[/u] possible consequences. The consequences would vary depending upon the situation, like as I pointed out earlier a hcaker attack failing could lead to it being traced, or cut off or even allowed to go through just with the defenders watching.

There are many possible options avaliable.
[/quote]

So how would you force the person to RP the spy roll?

[Botha]

[color="#000080"]Voted 'other' due to Botha Mode Rule #2 conflicting mutiual agreement with randomness.[/color]

[iamthey]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1281197835' post='2403757']
Er, all someone has to do is set up more than four defenses and suddenly it takes three days for somebody to do something that could be relatively simple. This reforms won't work unless you lift the 2-per-day limit.
[/quote]

This is a good point, and perhaps it needs to be addressed. However I would point out that while this may slow down people trying to break into super high security facilities. It would allow more freedom in operations that don't involve huge security circumvention.

Perhaps the 2 roll limit should be lifted and instead replaced with a two objective limit (per day). Like if I want to break into a super vault I could do the necessary rolls until I fail. If I am successful, I could then do a second objective.


[quote name='Vince Sixx' timestamp='1281209432' post='2403874']
I for one think that this is complete and utter !@#$%^&*. This is a national, not a character RP. This turns it into a character RP if you have to make a thread for a spy mission. One spy roll for an entire operation, but there should be a post detailing exactly what happened.

Whatever I'm on the losing side anyway.
[/quote]

Problem is vince that doesn't make any sense at all. Government facilities and high security vaults do not have a 50% break in success rate, in fact for a head on breaking and entering they should probably have an extremely low rate of success. If the odds are 50% and there are say 4 layers of security to break through that would give you a 6% rate of success which is far more realistic and fair to the defender than a magic 50%.

This isn't about imposing character RP on anyone, it is about realistically incorporating RP'd defenses into the spy system. As it currently stands someone who put jack !@#$ into spy defenses has just as good a chance at defending against a spy attack as someone who has specified pages and pages of spy defense ahead of time.

Edited August 8, 2010 by iamthey

[PotFace]

I disagree with the proposal. We are the leaders of our nations. THAT is the role we have. When the President decides to spy on another nation, all he or she has to do is say "make it happen". The nation's leader isn't there supervising the process.

And yes, a well established nation [i]does[/i] have the ability to infiltrate nearly anything. It's what spies do - it's their profession. Some spies might be better than others, but for the most part, with an Intelligence Agency in place, the only limits should be experience and expertise. Anybody can put a bomb under a car.

So, I say "nay" to the President picking locks.

[Triyun]

Poll is for CN RP Potface, you need to join for them to care, you could claim territory here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516&st=1660

I look forward to invading you.

Edit: Tell Sev to come by too

Edited August 8, 2010 by Triyun

[Sargun II]

The sad part of his post is that it used to be the way he said

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1281230379' post='2404167']Poll is for CN RP Potface, you need to join for them to care, you could claim territory here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516&st=1660

I look forward to invading you.[/quote]I say Potface should be allowed to speak.

You are incorrect in asserting that a place on the World Map precludes participation in CNRP.
I am a CNRPer, yet have no nation on said map

Maybe this individual has something worthwhile to say about CNRP and spying.
I dream of a day when a player is not judged by their status on a map, but for the content of their posts.
I also have this other dream where spy rules can be discussed without questioning someone's role-playing status.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Generalissimo

[Zoot Zoot]

Generalissimo is the Martin Luthor King of CNRP

[Shatner]

I seem to remember a combination of TBM and I's plans being very, very popular with the RPers here, and is for some reason not an option now.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Shatner' timestamp='1281293703' post='2404704']
I seem to remember a combination of TBM and I's plans being very, very popular with the RPers here, and is for some reason not an option now.
[/quote]

Yeah that seemed to vanish right quick and in a hurry.

[iamthey]

TBM's plan

[quote]Option 1- Spy rolls are to be used as a part of an overall story line as a specific spy related action that takes part in a storyline. The GMs will moderate as needed to prevent metagaming on behalf of both the attacker and defender. [/quote]

Basically what this is.

Problem is this is not entirely compatible.

[quote]1-15: Lose and Exposed
16-30: Lose and Keep Identity
31-100: Victory[/quote]

There are situations where your identity would not be in jeopardy but where you might succeed or fail. RP should be more the determinate of success or failure and identity preserved or exposed. Besides if you fail in the middle of a locked down facility you're probably going to get captured which means your identity will probably be exposed...