There are too many alliances and some of you should disband.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280582375' post='2395939']
so essentially, you are saying your friends plotted to attack NPO, an ally of Sparta, and you do not care. which leads me to think that the only reason you would have kept the treaty was.... well i am not sure. obviously you had no love for NPO at all at that point. and if your friends were as close as you say, they would have told you about the attack and if they did not..... yep clearly it was as simple as you put it.[/quote]
You know that's not what I said. Now you are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

[quote]nice that they canceled that treaty as well. NPO can easily state they were still allied at that time and have it become true. The treaty that is the word and bond of any alliance stated so. if the spirit and friendship behind the treaty is gone then you cancel it. That is purely MHA's fault. you cannot simply consider a treaty void but maintain it. so yes, Sparta did in fact, without a doubt, 100% true, hit an ally of an ally which is far worse than hitting the ally of an ally's ally. no matter what spin you put on it, will not make the truth go away.
[/quote]
The spirit and friendship of the treaty was gone the moment NPO executed their attack. MHA then considered it void and gave us the green light to defend GOD. If you don't like their decision and/or definition of void...well...I'm sorry?

[Alterego]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1280599703' post='2396143']
Fark is tied with NpO but NpO isn't tied with FARK?

Also we have a PIAT with FARK so it isn't a MDP+
[/quote]
Fixed thanks.

[Pomiel]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1280365551' post='2393208']
I see this list was created without any insight about how alliances who "don't do anything," have played a role in shaping the political landscape we see today.

Ignorance is bliss.
[/quote]

lol you're in MHA

also Ragnarok should disband. WAE

[Alaric]

Corinian - You disband first and we'll follow

I'll bet you think C-Span is [i]boring[/i] too. But that's where the powerful hang out right?

P.S. Tell Modus he owes me a Molson!

[Unholy]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1280584633' post='2395952']
I thought it was to extort absurd amounts of tech from alliances who only entered wars defensively.
[/quote]

Maybe they should have thought about that when they told us to get $%&@ed after we offered white peace.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1280576862' post='2395899']
Most of their treaties are with other large alliances. If you smashed the treaty web at the top the smaller alliances would suddenly be very important to large alliances. This in turn would lead to a multitude of sides and lots of excitement.
[/quote]

I hate agreeing with you, so I'll just say you might be on to something here...

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280601341' post='2396178']
You know that's not what I said. Now you are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
[/quote]

You may have not said it, but your [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62544&view=findpost&p=1668743]former King did[/url]. "months before it even happened". His words, not mine.

If you were on the "other side" "months" in advance of the first shots of the war, why maintain the treaties that linked you to us? Even if you decide to cancel the treaty, within the 48 hour cancellation period (since your [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55070]DoW says the cancellation notice was given after the attack on OV[/url]), the alliances of VE, Athens, GR, R&R, Rok, MOON, INT, Orion, DiCE, Vanguard, IOTA, Avalanche, GOD, GUN, and FOK all declared on us. All within the cancellation period. Were you allied to every single one of them? Atleast in the Cluster$%^& War Polaris jumped in on both sides due to conflicting treaties. You ignored yours and went with Karma.

[Pyroman]

If CD was truly inactive then we probably would disband. Also, I don't think you actually like us Corinan You barely talk to me

Also, in what twisted world is NATO not boring enough to be considered a keeper. No offense to NATO of course...

Edited July 31, 2010 by Pyroman

[Corinan]

[quote name='Pyroman' timestamp='1280606572' post='2396277']
If CD was truly inactive then we probably would disband. Also, I don't think you actually like us Corinan You barely talk to me

Also, in what twisted world is NATO not boring enough to be considered a keeper. No offense to NATO of course...
[/quote]

C'mon baby u know I luv u.

I really don't talk to that many people on IRC, if it makes you feel any better. No slight intended.

[NationRuler]

[quote name='Pyroman' timestamp='1280606572' post='2396277']
Also, in what twisted world is NATO not boring enough to be considered a keeper. No offense to NATO of course...
[/quote]
NATO gets to stay because Corinan is allied to them. Are they boring? Yes. Are they worthless? Almost certainly. Are they all NSO's got?
[img]http://c2.api.ning.com/files/8CmwoVR6-ualHE9ZvCe0RZ2p-PSyvC81CEUAWbwgLk45dW4AIY844Z43wofDoDU9c-Rf4iMukDnt9uGVsb4*MePAWsSt9ZNL/YouBetcha.jpg[/img]

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1280606341' post='2396272']
You may have not said it, but your [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62544&view=findpost&p=1668743]former King did[/url]. "months before it even happened". His words, not mine.

If you were on the "other side" "months" in advance of the first shots of the war, why maintain the treaties that linked you to us? Even if you decide to cancel the treaty, within the 48 hour cancellation period (since your [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55070]DoW says the cancellation notice was given after the attack on OV[/url]), the alliances of VE, Athens, GR, R&R, Rok, MOON, INT, Orion, DiCE, Vanguard, IOTA, Avalanche, GOD, GUN, and FOK all declared on us. All within the cancellation period. Were you allied to every single one of them? Atleast in the Cluster$%^& War Polaris jumped in on both sides due to conflicting treaties. You ignored yours and went with Karma.
[/quote]
Remember when I talked about that loose group of friends who all happened to not being sucking NPO's teet that we were getting close to? That's the "other side" George was referring to. We were all friends and loosely connected allies, not some evil organization bent on your destruction. George phrased it as "the other side" because back then if you weren't on NPO's side, you were on the "other side". The NPO paranoia back in those days assured that if you weren't with them, you were against them, even if you weren't actually against them. You were so threatened by us branching out and meeting new people that you just [i]had[/i] to attack one of them to try to keep us in line (Zhadum's logs back in the day confirmed that). We happened to be one of your friends who you continually treated like dirt to the point where we didn't feel we were really with you, and that caused you to make us feel like you were against [i]us[/i] and all of our new friends. That feeling was solidified when NPO attacked OV, and by extension our good friends in GOD.

You brought it on yourself NPO. You belittled and betrayed your friends who stuck by you through a lot for [i]years[/i] all because of some delusional paranoia brought on by some superiority complex that I have yet to be able to understand.

[i]You[/i] did this. Not Sparta.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Hyperion321

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280610618' post='2396349']
You brought it on yourself NPO. You belittled and betrayed your friends who stuck by you through a lot for [i]years[/i] all because of some delusional paranoia brought on by some superiority complex that I have yet to be able to understand.[/quote]

Must have been tough sticking beside us when we were winning. I suppose you should be thanked for waiting until 50 minutes after our treaty expired before you attacked. It was, after all, the [i]least[/i] you could have done.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280610618' post='2396349']

You brought it on yourself NPO. You belittled and betrayed your friends who stuck by you through a lot for [i]years[/i] all because of some delusional paranoia brought on by some superiority complex that I have yet to be able to understand.

[i]You[/i] did this. Not Sparta.
[/quote]

To many new rulers, those that turned their back on the NPO only did it to save themselves because they saw the winds change. That is the impression many of us have. You and others quickly jumped ship when you knew there would be trouble. You are the man cowards that got on the life boats and pushed women and children out of the way just to save yourselves.

That is the impression I have of you and others. I have studied you, and found nothing but weakness.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Fernando12

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1280610972' post='2396357']
Must have been tough sticking beside us when we were winning. I suppose you should be thanked for waiting until 50 minutes after our treaty expired before you attacked. It was, after all, the [i]least[/i] you could have done.
[/quote]
No, the tough part was sticking beside you while you continuously pissed off and oppressed everyone we were friends with. When you had us do your bidding against people who didn't deserve it. When we gave so much to you but received nothing in return. You [u]used[/u] us. Hell, you even tried to ZI [i]our friggin' protectorate[/i]. That's certainly a sign you're in a good relationship when your friends try to kill your little brother.

We tried to shrug it off - to make it work so neither of us would cross swords over our painfully obvious falling out. We knew a war was coming eventually and we were going to try our best to avoid a sticky situation between us because we did have a good past that we felt was worth something at one time (I'm not sure NPO felt the same). But when you attacked OV you threw all of that out the window. We stuck by you, and you shoved it in our face thinking we would just lay down and take more of your crap. We didn't. You lost. Here we are.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1280611380' post='2396368']
To many new rulers, those that turned their back on the NPO only did it to save themselves because they saw the winds change. That is the impression many of us have. You and others quickly jumped ship when you knew their would be trouble. You are the man cowards that got on the life boats and pushed women and children out of the way just to save yourselves.

That is the impression I have of you and others. I have studied you, and found nothing but weakness.
[/quote]
You say we are weak, but how much strength does it take to rise up to defend your friends from those who take advantage of your power. Weakness would have been to bow and do nothing either way, and that's just not our style.

[Corinan]

Err, NATO isn't our only ally.

[Qazzian]

And had you left earlier, we wouldn't be arguing this. Here's the fact of it. You ignored the treaty in the first wave of Karma's attacks against the NPO. You had given notice of cancellation, it was not canceled. You then took the first chance to attack us directly to try and distance yourself from the group that was now being beaten. Your own leaders have said as much, it was to distance Sparta from the Hegemony, to "make up for past sins."

Had you canceled weeks or months in advance, when you were obviously concerned that our alliances no longer were on the same path both by your concerns over our actions and the statements of George the Great about being on "the other side", then the NPO would not have a leg to stand on in this argument. But you did not cancel when all of the things you now bring up happened. You kept the treaty because you were afraid of getting attacked if you weren't aligned with the Hegemony.

You ignored the treaty, and stabbed us in the back.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1280612472' post='2396389']
And had you left earlier, we wouldn't be arguing this. Here's the fact of it. You ignored the treaty in the first wave of Karma's attacks against the NPO. You had given notice of cancellation, it was not canceled. You then took the first chance to attack us directly to try and distance yourself from the group that was now being beaten. Your own leaders have said as much, it was to distance Sparta from the Hegemony, to "make up for past sins."

Had you canceled weeks or months in advance, when you were obviously concerned that our alliances no longer were on the same path both by your concerns over our actions and the statements of George the Great about being on "the other side", then the NPO would not have a leg to stand on in this argument. But you did not cancel when all of the things you now bring up happened. You kept the treaty because you were afraid of getting attacked if you weren't aligned with the Hegemony.

You ignored the treaty, and stabbed us in the back.
[/quote]
If anyone ignored our treaty, it was you. You were obligated to tell us if you were going to engage in a war both in our individual treaty and in Q. You failed to do so knowing that we would have disapproved and probably canceled if no diplomatic solution could be carried out. You attacked without informing us thinking we would be locked on your side unable to help our friends. You violated both the spirit and the letter of our treaty the second you attacked OV.

You. Betrayed. Us.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Hyperion321

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280611651' post='2396372']
No, the tough part was sticking beside you while you continuously pissed off and oppressed everyone we were friends with. When you had us do your bidding against people who didn't deserve it. When we gave so much to you but received nothing in return. You [u]used[/u] us. Hell, you even tried to ZI [i]our friggin' protectorate[/i]. That's certainly a sign you're in a good relationship when your friends try to kill your little brother.

We tried to shrug it off - to make it work so neither of us would cross swords over our painfully obvious falling out. We knew a war was coming eventually and we were going to try our best to avoid a sticky situation between us because we did have a good past that we felt was worth something at one time (I'm not sure NPO felt the same). But when you attacked OV you threw all of that out the window. We stuck by you, and you shoved it in our face thinking we would just lay down and take more of your crap. We didn't. You lost. Here we are.
[/quote]

Hyperion, you guys stood by and let NPO do it. Plain and simple. You kept the treaties, you kept supporting them, you did nothing to change it. You waited until it was convenient for you to cancel on Pacifica before you started claiming how much they've been a horrible ally to you. If they were that horrible, you would not have been in the bloc for so long and you would not have been allied to them for so long.

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280612819' post='2396399']
If anyone ignored our treaty, it was you. You were obligated to tell us if you were going to engage in a war both in our individual treaty and in Q. You failed to do so knowing that we would have disapproved and probably canceled if no diplomatic solution could be carried out. You attacked without informing us thinking we would be locked on your side unable to help our friends. You violated both the spirit and the letter of our treaty the second you attacked OV.

You. Betrayed. Us.
[/quote]

Actually.... no. There was no clause to inform you of any action being taken by us. Perhaps you'd like to read the text of the treaty again. Saying we broke the letter of the treaty due to attacking OV is flat out wrong.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280601341' post='2396178']
You know that's not what I said. Now you are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.


The spirit and friendship of the treaty was gone the moment NPO executed their attack. MHA then considered it void and gave us the green light to defend GOD. If you don't like their decision and/or definition of void...well...I'm sorry?
[/quote]

well, you stated that NPO violated your trust in an awful way, yet how could you not realize that a coalition was already formed the moment several alliances were prepped and ready to go to attack NPO the moment they hit OV? not to mention, the moment you joined the coalition channels, you should have realized that the coalition was not exactly something that was whipped up in a few hours. it would have been blatantly obvious that there was an awful lot of planning involved prior to NPO hitting OV but despite this, you chose to attack NPO instead of realizing that your friends had been a while in planning an offensive against NPO.

so no, it is not being difficult for difficult's sake, it is seeing the whole picture instead of blinding myself to reality as it seems you have done. you have chosen to severely bias your viewpoint in order to ignore the fact that your allies and friends on one side had been planning to attack one of your allies.

as for the MHA treaty, again it does not matter if MHA thought it was void. the treaty was still intact and valid. they never even attempted to cancel it. if they honestly thought it was void, then they should have just canceled it. They did not, which means that the treaty was valid and Sparta attacked an ally of an ally which is worse than attacking an ally of an ally's ally.

again, no matter how you spin it, the treaty between NPO and MHA was fully intact, even according to MHA, until it was canceled via NPO's surrender terms. MHA never canceled the treaty, so just because they felt it was void means nothing unless their word means absolutely nothing in terms of whether the treaty was active or not. MHA just chose to ignore their obligations instead of live up to their word or cancel the treaty.

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280612819' post='2396399']
If anyone ignored our treaty, it was you. You were obligated to tell us if you were going to engage in a war both in our individual treaty and in Q. You failed to do so knowing that we would have disapproved and probably canceled if no diplomatic solution could be carried out. You attacked without informing us thinking we would be locked on your side unable to help our friends. You violated both the spirit and the letter of our treaty the second you attacked OV.

You. Betrayed. Us.
[/quote]

well your allies you ran over to, ignored their clauses where they are supposed to tell you they are planning to attack someone, especially considering that someone was an ally of yours. considering that you still had a treaty, according to you, your friends violated both the spirit and letter of your treaty the moment they hit NPO. instead of acknowledging that, you canceled on NPO (which is an understandable move, no fault there) and then hit NPO (major fault there...).

[quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1280613852' post='2396413']
Actually.... no. There was no clause to inform you of any action being taken by us. Perhaps you'd like to read the text of the treaty again. Saying we broke the letter of the treaty due to attacking OV is flat out wrong.
[/quote]

i would like to see the text of this treaty now. if this is true, then that deflates some of Hyperion's argument especially since you never attacked GOD, only OV.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Dochartaigh

[Qazzian]

[quote]
PREAMBLE
The New Pacific Order and Sparta hereby declare their sovereignty, friendship, and solidarity.

ARTICLE I
Neither alliance will attack or spy on the other. In addition, neither shall aid the an enemy of the other.

ARTICLE II
An attack on one signatory will be considered an attack on the other. In the event a signatory should initiate conflict, the other may assist, but this is not required.

ARTICLE III
Each alliance will encourage our members to offer financial aid to members of the other, especially in times of need.

ARTICLE IV
If either signatory wishes to cancel this treaty, they must give forty-eight hour notice to the other. If either alliance violates the treaty, it’s dissolved immediately.

Signed for New Pacific Order:

Emperor Revenge
Divine Bovine Overlord
New Pacific Order
Moo-cows with guns
Moo-Tang Clan
Ain't Nuttin to %@#* wit'

Signed for Sparta:

Kings:
Paqua
Wandmdave

Ephors:
Epik High
PatriotOne
Jsermo
Kenny[/quote]


Please note the lack of "We have to tell you if we're going to war", and the 48 hour cancellation period, during which the first wave of Karma alliances attacked.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

How could MHA have considered their treaty void? Wasn't it iffy whether or not it could be cancelled by the surrender terms?

[Triyun]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280612819' post='2396399']
If anyone ignored our treaty, it was you. You were obligated to tell us if you were going to engage in a war both in our individual treaty and in Q. You failed to do so knowing that we would have disapproved and probably canceled if no diplomatic solution could be carried out. You attacked without informing us thinking we would be locked on your side unable to help our friends. You violated both the spirit and the letter of our treaty the second you attacked OV.

You. Betrayed. Us.
[/quote]

Yeah no. Lets talk about the spirit here. You guys accused TPF of spying and were readying to go to war with them a few months prior to when Continuum ended. You did this with very little evidence, and suddenly brought it up. This was inspite of your leadership being active in the Continuum leadership channel every night with TPF.

In response to plenty of rumors about another bloc forming to counter Continuum, you completely denied that this was happening and announced your intention to stay in Continuum. You kept this up until you announced you were leaving to form a new bloc under the exact specifications people asked about. So to act as though you were in the dark until the last minute is laughable. On top of that we've heard from plenty of other people involved in that you guys were all for making a bloc designed to be against the NPO.

Pretty much everyone on all sides of the political spectrum know and freely acknowledge what you did, those on the SG side just think that you were smart by picking them as the winning team. That doesn't change that fact that you guys betrayed the NPO and your Q allies solely to try and get some more influence for your alliance.

[Lukapaka]

Isn't Karma long over? Why is everyone still talking about it, like it's a current event. Did everyone forget that there was an entire global war since then?

Edited July 31, 2010 by Lukapaka