A debate on accepting nations at war

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='23 July 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1279911736' post='2386323']
[color="#0000FF"]That is irrelevant. The point of the Mercy Board is to demean and to embarrass.[/color]
[/quote]
It is designed to entertain all parties involved (and what Lam said). Many do challenges voluntarily.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sardonic

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1279910864' post='2386268']
The punishment for an AGGRESSIVE WAR AGAINST GOONS is either the entire war or the ability to fulfill mercy terms to get free. USSR wanted peace. That doesn't mean they get off scott free. That means they get community service instead of jail time.
[/quote]

I'd have thought you'd want to detract from your misrepresentations, not shout them out in big loud capital letters.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='23 July 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1279911736' post='2386323']
[color="#0000FF"]That is irrelevant. The point of the Mercy Board is to demean and to embarrass.[/color]
[/quote]
His only supporting statement disproven, Rebel Virginia continues to stand strong against whatever injustice he percieves. I would expect nothing less.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='23 July 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1279911736' post='2386323']
[color="#0000FF"]That is irrelevant. The point of the Mercy Board is to demean and to embarrass.[/color]
[/quote]

I've already demonstrated a purpose that is nothing to do with demeaning anybody.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='23 July 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1279911868' post='2386329']
I'd have thought you'd want to detract from your misrepresentations, not shout them out in big loud capital letters.
[/quote]
By aggressive war I mean, he declared on us. That is a fact and not deniable. The war page will indicate as such. I'm not talking about AA vs AA war and who started it, I'm saying he declared on members of GOONS in an aggressive (as opposed to defensive where he was declared upon) war. If someone declares an aggressive war upon GOONS, they will either have to stick for the duration of the war, do something on mercy, or otherwise resolve it diplomatically.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1279912050' post='2386337']
By aggressive war I mean, he declared on us. That is a fact and not deniable. The war page will indicate as such. I'm not talking about AA vs AA war and who started it, I'm saying he declared on members of GOONS in an aggressive (as opposed to defensive where he was declared upon) war. If someone declares an aggressive war upon GOONS, they will either have to stick for the duration of the war, do something on mercy, or otherwise resolve it diplomatically.
[/quote]
Are you a native speaker? Do you understand the words that you are writing? I am asking this question in earnest.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1279912050' post='2386337']
By aggressive war I mean, he declared on us. That is a fact and not deniable. The war page will indicate as such. I'm not talking about AA vs AA war and who started it, I'm saying he declared on members of GOONS in an aggressive (as opposed to defensive where he was declared upon) war. If someone declares an aggressive war upon GOONS, they will either have to stick for the duration of the war, do something on mercy, or otherwise resolve it diplomatically.
[/quote]

This is patently ridiculous.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='23 July 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1279912279' post='2386343']
This is patently ridiculous.
[/quote]
Please explain. I observe everything in that post to be true and reasonable.

Edited July 23, 2010 by ktarthan

[lamuella]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1279912207' post='2386341']
Are you a native speaker? Do you understand the words that you are writing? I am asking this question in earnest.
[/quote]

you fixed your somewhat ironic typo before I could quote it. Shame.

back to the topic, one of the major purposes of our mercy board is to avoid what Schattenman has been trying to do throughout this process, namely the assumption that because you want something you are entitled to it. His whole diplomatic approach this whole time has been built on the idea that if he accepts a person into his alliance, we owe that person peace. The mercy board is meant to disabuse petitioners of that idea. The mercy board is not about what you are owed, but about what you earn.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1279906563' post='2386088']
They are a group of rogues, not an alliance, a group of rogues which entered into a war with us. You're right though, "Alliance War" gives them too much credit, but we consider it the same sort of thing.
[/quote]
So in other words, what Schatt doing is pretty much the same as what you guys did when you aided the rogue hitting CoJ?

[quote name='Mathias' date='23 July 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1279907128' post='2386108']
If you accept a nation that is already at war, the most you should do is ask for the wars to stop.
[/quote]
That's actually what he seems to be doing.

[quote name='Delta1212' date='23 July 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1279909063' post='2386193']
I've learned something new today.

Schatt, does CoJ allow outside tech deals? Caprios has an empty slot and I need tech.
[/quote]
Oh this is ... [i]special.[/i]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1279910146' post='2386230']
Yes, actually, it does matter, they made a mockery of the mercy board.
[/quote]
Many would suggest you guys are doing that pretty well on your own.

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 02:41 PM' timestamp='1279910464' post='2386247']
Lie, plagiarize, whatever you call it, you willfully undermined the integrity of our mercy board.
[/quote]
Oh no, not your [i]integrity.[/i] Forever they have besmirched your morals.

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1279912480' post='2386353']
His whole diplomatic approach this whole time has been built on the idea that if he accepts a person into his alliance, we owe that person peace. The mercy board is meant to disabuse petitioners of that idea. The mercy board is not about what you are owed, but about what you earn.
[/quote]
Ah, yes. It's about GOONS' desire to ensure that people they do not approve of do not get to join alliances.

Nice to see you come out and say it though.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1279912480' post='2386353']
you fixed your somewhat ironic typo before I could quote it. Shame.

back to the topic, one of the major purposes of our mercy board is to avoid what Schattenman has been trying to do throughout this process, namely the assumption that because you want something you are entitled to it. His whole diplomatic approach this whole time has been built on the idea that if he accepts a person into his alliance, we owe that person peace. The mercy board is meant to disabuse petitioners of that idea. The mercy board is not about what you are owed, but about what you earn.
[/quote]

This is what we sent to GOONS nations:
[quote][raider],
The nation of [nation] has applied and been accepted to the Cult of Justitia.
His former alliance, U.S.S.R., is involved in a raid with GOONS. Having renounced his membership in U.S.S.R. and having no cause or interest in the military entanglements thereof, [nation] has sent you a peace offer in order to allow you both to pursue your own interests. We thank you for your cooperation in this matter, and ask that you accept this offer.

[signed][/quote]

Yeah, realllll demanding. And when it was rejected, we worked with you to fulfill terms instead.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1279912480' post='2386353']
you fixed your somewhat ironic typo before I could quote it. Shame.

back to the topic, one of the major purposes of our mercy board is to avoid what Schattenman has been trying to do throughout this process, namely the assumption that because you want something you are entitled to it. His whole diplomatic approach this whole time has been built on the idea that if he accepts a person into his alliance, we owe that person peace. The mercy board is meant to disabuse petitioners of that idea. The mercy board is not about what you are owed, but about what you earn.
[/quote]
To add on to this, the Mercy Board and its going-ons are not something that we [i]owe[/i] to the general raided public. We could have simply decided that peace is up to the discretion of the raider (which in all other cases it is) and be done with it. We have provided targets a reliable means (there are other means, but less reliable) to obtain peace that does not need to exist. I'm not going to try and say that we do this out of large concern for the raided nations, we do it mostly for our own enjoyment, but I want to further dispel any myth of entitlement that may be felt towards the peace process.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='23 July 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1279912617' post='2386359']
So in other words, what Schatt doing is pretty much the same as what you guys did when you aided the rogue hitting CoJ?
[/quote]

Schatt's apologizing and offering to make reparations? Where?

[quote]
Ah, yes. It's about GOONS' desire to ensure that people they do not approve of do not get to join alliances.
[/quote]

how do you get that out of anything I wrote?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='23 July 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1279912617' post='2386359']
So in other words, what Schatt doing is pretty much the same as what you guys did when you aided the rogue hitting CoJ?
[/quote]
Uhm, no. If you don't understand this, please read the thread again.

[quote]
Oh no, not your [i]integrity.[/i] Forever they have besmirched your morals.
[/quote]
Integrity is not the same as morals. Also, lacking a specific moral does not indicate total lack of morals.

[quote]
Ah, yes. It's about GOONS' desire to ensure that people they do not approve of do not get to join alliances.

Nice to see you come out and say it though.
[/quote]
Er what? They can have him. We really don't care. Once the current war (which was declared by Caprios) has expired, we won't declare any more.

[wickedj]

[quote]Recent incidents have drawn to my attention the fact that some alliances think it is perfectly acceptable to accept nations at war[/quote]
I hope you called them an idiot and promptly swore to never talk to them again for fear of catching teh stupid

Seriously though, whos membership application DOESNT ask if you're at war or atleast state you dont accept anyone at war thats been a no-no for as long as ive been here(oh god, nearly 1000 days)

EDIT: Schatt Dont make me side with GOONS on this...i already feel dirty for agreeing with them on most of tech raiding

Edited July 23, 2010 by wickedj

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1279912855' post='2386370']
Schatt's apologizing and offering to make reparations? Where?
[/quote]
Your apology was not sufficient. I require a 600-word essay about either: (a) The genius of the Bubblegum War and the idiocy of those who revealed it, or (b) A day when a bully is outraged by the infallibility and might of Justitia, but after sitting at her feet and listening for a while grows to love the ideals her followers espouse. MK can write it for you because I'm not a ponce.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1279909027' post='2386192']
Act of war or not, we offered compensation, and it was not accepted.
[/quote]

Yea I wasn't addressing how it may or may not have been handled just correcting the mistake belief it isn't an act of war. Its a minor one to be sure and almost always handled reasonably, but still is one.

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1279909147' post='2386196']
He was not "funded," he was sent 50t and only 50t (no money, no soldiers) by a 6,600 NS nation who now only has 4 tech of his own. He was not "funded," he was sent 50t for a tech deal completion. Besides, we offered to handle this and they weren't interested -- but they still want to try and use it as leverage to smear us. So there was an attempt to "deal with it responsibly," they dropped it, but still want to us it as ammo.
[/quote]

Oh, ok. Brb, aiding the CoJ/USSR guys you are at war with. Don't worry it'll all be tech deals, but being the nice guy that I am, I'll wait until they have peace before I worry about repayment.

See how stupid that looks? Yea it doesn't matter what you call it. If its filling an aid slot, its oh geeze whats the word? Aid!

Edited July 23, 2010 by TypoNinja

[lamuella]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='23 July 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1279913070' post='2386376']
Er what? They can have him. We really don't care. Once the current war (which was declared by Caprios) has expired, we won't declare any more.
[/quote]

I'm going to repeat that last part in bold to point out how ridiculous this whole thing is:

[b]Once the current war has expired, we won't declare any more.[/b]

[Sardonic]

The fact of the matter, Schatt, despite all your flailing about over the mercy board terms, is that you knowingly accepted a nation which was at war with us, then got your ally to threaten us to peace out. Your crime is far more severe than ours, and I hope the community can look past our name and see that.

To writ:

[quote]
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> I see
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> well
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> peace out the CoJ nations
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> the attacks on the CoJ nation
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> or we will engage
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> those specific nations
[22:22] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> who are involved in an act of war against CoJ
[/quote]

Your crime is shameful, and you cannot shirk it.

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='23 July 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1279913344' post='2386386']
See how stupid that looks? Yea it doesn't matter what you call it. If its filling an aid slot, its oh geeze whats the word? Aid!
[/quote]
Calm down typo, nobody is contesting that foreign aid is not indeed foreign aid. Beefspari is contesting the connotation that we directed the aid to be sent with the express purpose of harming CoJ.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sardonic

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='ktarthan' date='23 July 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1279913070' post='2386376']
Er what? They can have him. We really don't care. Once the current war (which was declared by Caprios) has expired, we won't declare any more.
[/quote]
[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1279913378' post='2386388']
I'm going to repeat that last part in bold to point out how ridiculous this whole thing is:

[b]Once the current war has expired, we won't declare any more.[/b]
[/quote]
Right. You don't care soooooo much that you will call it quits in 5 days, not today.

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1279913434' post='2386391']
The fact of the matter, Schatt, despite all your flailing about over the mercy board terms, is that you knowingly accepted a nation which was at war with us, then got your ally to threaten us to peace out. Your crime is far more severe than ours, and I hope the community can look past our name and see that.
[/quote]
Sardonic you know full well that overtures to violence were in reponse to GOONS failure to accept the terms that they dictated once they were fulfilled.

[Sargun II]

Aw, is little baby GOONS sad that their raiding backfired? It's okay, we'll stop embarrassing you once you stop acting like children.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1279913649' post='2386398']
Sardonic you know full well that overtures to violence were in response* to GOONS failure to accept the terms that they dictated once they were fulfilled.
[/quote]

That would be a good argument except [b]the terms were not fulfilled[/b]

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1279913790' post='2386403']
That would be a good argument except [b]the terms were not fulfilled[/b]
[/quote]
Every person understands that you wanted a funny story and you got one.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1279913649' post='2386398']
Right. You don't care soooooo much that you will call it quits in 5 days, not today.
[/quote]
Yeah. Totally replying to what I said. Thanks.

Or maybe I was referring to the fact that we don't care that he's joining CoJ, and this has nothing to do with us wanting to prevent that.

[quote name='Sargun' date='23 July 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1279913766' post='2386402']
Aw, is little baby GOONS sad that their raiding backfired? It's okay, we'll stop embarrassing you once you stop acting like children.
[/quote]
To answer your question, no. But thanks for your concern? (Also we aren't embarrassed. I'm not sure what gave you that impression)

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 02:41 PM' timestamp='1279914047' post='2386411']
Every person understands that you wanted a funny story and you got one.
[/quote]
A funny story[b] written by those recognized as USSR in the USSR/GOONS conflict[/b].