A debate on accepting nations at war

[nippy]

[quote name='AndrewHG' date='23 July 2010 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1279906969' post='2386100']
Quit complaining and stop trying to codify piracy.
[/quote]

Stop posting and try to understand the actual issue here.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1279906895' post='2386099']
Stop confusing the issue, it doesn't matter who considered it a war first as both parties did eventually anyway. The point is what happens when people try to escape the war.
[/quote]

This is actually an interesting twist in the plot.

IF GOONS did not consider the Micro to be a "real" alliance when they initially raided I don;t think you can change that view.

What you can do is declare those you attacked to be raids and those who attacked uninvolved GOONs nations to be rogues. I think that is a better option then going back on your not a real alliance thing.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1279906563' post='2386088']

Sorry, but you tried to make a mockery of the mercy board. The essay and pictures must come from the aggreived party, not some third party. Maybe they will successfully complete them this time.[/quote]
Thank you for demonstrating the circular logic I outlined. "We acknowledge that Caprios is a member of CoJ. The essay isn't acceptable because Caprios didn't write it. Since Caprios is a member of CoJ now, he also can't post it."
Furthermore, last night you agreed that any current or former member of USSR can post the essay, so you can't even keep your own story straight.

The issue of GOONS aiding nations at war--even if it was because a second member of GOONS for a second time was too stupid to not aid a nation at war (it's a top-down problem, I think)--was dropped because of my good will toward GOONS, not because of GOONS lack of good will toward me, rest assured.

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1279906593' post='2386089']
Everyone already knew our 'mercy' policy. Just in case you missed the [b]stickied thread[/b] in that section of our forum, here it is again for your reading pleasure:
[quote]1) During the 24 hour cease fire period, the adjudicator (that's me) or another governor will present you with the terms of peace. This may consist of anything the governor decides, but will NOT consist of in-game OR out of game requirements such as money. If I personally am offering you the terms, I will give you at least two options to pick from.

2) You have the allotted 24 hour cease fire period to respond to the terms and complete them. If you fail to do so, war will resume. If you meet the requirements, you'll be offered peace and may go about your business (and will not be attacked again as long as we can remember not to). If you half-$@! it, it'll be put up to a vote, which will probably result in people laughing at you and then saying no.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Wow, now that you've posted the policy, would you care to explain why Beefspari did not grant a 24-hour ceasefire and did not post terms until well after 24 hours? You guys are pathetic.

[Mathias]

If you accept a nation that is already at war, the most you should do is ask for the wars to stop.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='23 July 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1279906736' post='2386094']
Schatt, this is really unbecoming man. I really have no stake in any of this but you and I know well enough that accepting nations previously at war is a no-no. If it's an alliance war, they need to be cleared by the alliance they are fleeing. This is standard. If it's a raid, then they need to be cleared by the nation raiding them. This is also standard. Regardless of the reason for war, it doesn't go away when they apply to your membership. This is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Try to keep up, Flinders. CoJ accepted techraid targets, asked politely for peace, fulfilled terms dictated by GOONS, and still has not been able to resolve the issue due to GOONS refusal to be satisfied.

[Biazt]

All I see here is CoJ attempting to accept a nation at war into their AA and using ridiculous logic to support it.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1279907103' post='2386105']
Thank you for demonstrating the circular logic I outlined. "We acknowledge that Caprios is a member of CoJ. The essay isn't acceptable because Caprios didn't write it. Since Caprios is a member of CoJ now, he also can't post it."
Furthermore, last night you agreed that any current or former member of USSR can post the essay, so you can't even keep your own story straight.
[/quote]
Caprios is able to post the terms as we are recognizing him as part of the USSR/GOONS conflict. My apologies if there was any misconception.

You can't hide the fact that you lied, though. We're not being mean, we're being consistent, the essay and pictures must be provided by the aggreived party.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1279907351' post='2386117']
Try to keep up, Flinders. CoJ accepted techraid targets, asked politely for peace, fulfilled terms dictated by GOONS, and still has not been able to resolve the issue due to GOONS refusal to be satisfied.
[/quote]

Shatt, GOONs can ask for the world and if you can't give it your only option is to wait. It's up to them to decide when terms are met and if you don't like it it's pretty much tough noogies at this point.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1279907351' post='2386117']
fulfilled terms dictated by GOONS
[/quote]

[quote]Caprios,We have written the essay that GOONS wants for you. I am including it below. Post it at GOONS forum in the mercy board thread that you have. After it is posted, all attacks should stop. Save the pictures and upload them to your own photobucket, just in case GOONS won't accept them if they know we did it. Do not mention that we wrote it for you.[/quote]


Ahahaha

Edited July 23, 2010 by Biazt

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1279906895' post='2386099']
Stop confusing the issue, it doesn't matter who considered it a war first as both parties did eventually anyway. The point is what happens when people try to escape the war.
[/quote]

Pointing out that the war against USSR exists because of GOONS raiding either for greed or for political points against NPO, I forget which one is GOONS' official line, is not confusing the issue. Highlighting the complete lack of reason for the start of this war, and by extension the reason they aren't being granted peace is not confusing the issue. Unless you consider recognising the state of war GOONS brought upon their alliance as a belligerent act, there's really no case for terms at all, let alone excessively humiliating ones.

P.S: Nemesis was not looking for a war about your tech raid on someone that had since joined our ally. GOONS aided a nation at war with Nemesis and Cult of Justitia, a clear act of war. We were hoping we could encourage you to show goodwill towards the nations of USSR in their peace negotiations by showing goodwill ourselves regarding the act of war against Nemesis and CoJ. GOONS decided against this, for whatever reason, I don't care to speculate what exactly your reasons were for refusing to show any goodwill towards USSR were.

[i]Edit: Grammar[/i]

Edited July 23, 2010 by Poyplemonkeys

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1279907404' post='2386119']
Caprios is able to[b] post [/b]the terms as we are recognizing him as part of the USSR/GOONS conflict. My apologies if there was any misconception.

You can't hide the fact that you lied, though. We're not being mean, we're being consistent, the essay and pictures must be provided by the aggreived party.
[/quote]
Why did it take Nemesis and MK to convince you of such an obvious truth? And Caprios did[b] post[/b] the essay. As for aggrieved parties, GOONS recognizes Caprios a member of CoJ, making CoJ part of the equation. No amount of talking out of both sides of your mouth is going to change the fact that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1279899277' post='2385911']
Tech raid, A tech raided B, and B attacked A in full force in retribution. So it became an "alliance war", even if A didn't recognize B as an alliance.[/quote]

so A considers B retaliating to have escalated the raid by A into a full fledged war? that is weak. Raid victims should be capable of defending themselves without it being considered war at that point. if the raid victim is in an alliance, and his alliance mates help then too bad for the raider. it was the raider who initiated the assault or to modify a quote of Lam's from this thread "The Raiders right to hit the victim ends at the victim's face".

Now as for accepting nations who have wars from a legitimate war, i would personally do it, but the nation would receive no help other than me asking the nations at war with my new member to please peace out.

For raiding, it is basically the same thing. I would accept and ask the raiders to peace out. If the raiders decided not to peace out, then i would threaten as a raid is commonly peaced out after just a round of GAs. For it to go further, would seem to me as if the raiders were not raiding as they stated and since the raid turned into a war while the nation was a member of my alliance, i would consider it a war on my member.

just like, ya'll considered it a war when the victim defended himself or his alliance defended him.

[nippy]

[quote name='magicninja' date='23 July 2010 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1279907095' post='2386104']
This is actually an interesting twist in the plot.

IF GOONS did not consider the Micro to be a "real" alliance when they initially raided I don;t think you can change that view.

What you can do is declare those you attacked to be raids and those who attacked uninvolved GOONs nations to be rogues. I think that is a better option then going back on your not a real alliance thing.
[/quote]
I agree, actually.

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1279907103' post='2386105']
Thank you for demonstrating the circular logic I outlined. "We acknowledge that Caprios is a member of CoJ. The essay isn't acceptable because Caprios didn't write it. Since Caprios is a member of CoJ now, he also can't post it."
Furthermore, last night you agreed that any current or former member of USSR can post the essay, so you can't even keep your own story straight.

The issue of GOONS aiding nations at war--even if it was because a second member of GOONS for a second time was too stupid to not aid a nation at war (it's a top-down problem, I think)--was dropped because of my good will toward GOONS, not because of GOONS lack of good will toward me, rest assured.


Wow, now that you've posted the policy, would you care to explain why Beefspari did not grant a 24-hour ceasefire and did not post terms until well after 24 hours? You guys are pathetic.
[/quote]
Talk about pathetic. You're grasping at every straw you can reach without straining yourself by having to get up from your chair.

Schat's reasons to hate GOONS:

1. they [i]raid[/i]!
2. they don't think I'm worthy enough to boss around their government members!
3. they don't keep track of all tech deals conducted by all 362 of their members to ensure a rogue isn't being aided!
4. they don't gasp in awe of my name!

Oh, and Beefspari delayed the posting of the terms due to OOC reasons.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1279906408' post='2386081']
It's also pretty difficult for an alliance A to determine if an alliance B is at war or not when alliance B make up its definitions of "war" and "alliance" at whim to suit every individual situation.
[/quote]

there's a certain irony in Schattenmann accusing someone else of making up something to do with a war.

[Chief Savage Man]

Applicants to alliances should be required to settle any issues themselves before being accepted. If the alliance wants to assist them, then fine. With regards to the specific issue here, I don't think CoJ should have asked Nemesis to help them with an issue they had nothing to do with. On the other hand, some of the GOONS who went into Nemesis' channel afterwards were out of line. That's not that related though, so the point is this: The applicant must do what the attacker wants to get peace before joining an alliance.

[nippy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1279907635' post='2386127']
Why did it take Nemesis and MK to convince you of such an obvious truth? And Caprios did[b] post[/b] the essay. As for aggrieved parties, GOONS recognizes Caprios a member of CoJ, making CoJ part of the equation. No amount of talking out of both sides of your mouth is going to change the fact that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
[/quote]

CoJ isn't part of the equation, as badly as you want to be. Unless the AA was 'Cult of Justitia' when the war started, you have no voice in this matter. Speaking of having no voice in this matter, Nemesis can butt right the hell out. I'm thoroughly disgusted with the way they acted during that 'discussion' with Beefspari, and if that's the kind of company you keep, I've had a skewed impression of you for way too long.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='magicninja' date='23 July 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1279907576' post='2386122']
Shatt, GOONs can ask for the world and if you can't give it your only option is to wait. It's up to them to decide when terms are met and if you don't like it it's pretty much tough noogies at this point.
[/quote]
That the kind of retarded thinking that got GATO attacked over terms that were over a year old. Gladyou learned something. GOONS asked for a 600-word essay, they got one, then they asked for another one. Your position that GOONS can change its terms after they're filled forever-and-ever amen basically institutionalizes endless war. Karma could decide that the amount of tech they got from NPO wasn't enough, and attack them for more tomorrow.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='23 July 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1279907628' post='2386126']
Pointing out that the war against USSR exists because of GOONS raiding either for greed or for political points against NPO, I forget which one is GOONS' official line, is not confusing the issue. Highlighting the complete lack of reason for the start of this war, and by extension the reason they aren't being granted peace is not confusing the issue. Unless you consider recognising the state of war GOONS brought upon their alliance as a belligerent act, there's really no case for terms at all, let alone excessively humiliating ones.

P.S: Nemesis was not looking for a war about your tech raid on someone that had since joined our ally. GOONS aided a nation at war with Nemesis and Cult of Justitia, a clear act of war. We were hoping we could encourage you to show goodwill towards the nations of USSR in their peace negotiations by showing goodwill ourselves regarding the act of war against GOONS and CoJ. GOONS decided against this, for whatever reason, I don't care to speculate what exactly your reasons were for refusing to show any goodwill towards USSR were.

[i]Edit: Grammar[/i]
[/quote]

Greed. Greed and tears. Those are the reasons.

You can keep trying to push the mistakenly completed tech deal as [u][b]A CLEAR ACT OF WAR[/b][/u] but that's quite the stretch.

Not to mention we offered 50t to compensate you.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Biazt

[nippy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1279907828' post='2386139']
That the kind of retarded thinking that got GATO attacked over terms that were over a year old. Gladyou learned something. GOONS asked for a 600-word essay, they got one, then they asked for another one. Your position that GOONS can change its terms after they're filled forever-and-ever amen basically institutionalizes endless war. Karma could decide that the amount of tech they got from NPO wasn't enough, and attack them for more tomorrow.
[/quote]

I'm not going to post the stickied thread AGAIN for you, Schatt. Having someone else complete terms for you is easily considered 'half-assed'. Simple as that. It was a nice attempt, though.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1279907351' post='2386117']
Try to keep up, Flinders. CoJ accepted techraid targets, asked politely for peace, fulfilled terms dictated by GOONS, and still has not been able to resolve the issue due to GOONS refusal to be satisfied.
[/quote]
I'm up to speed. But the terms of a tech raid (or any other attack for that matter) ending are not up to you, being a third party. It's up to the two nations at war and the organizations backing them when the war begun. That's why alliances do not generally accept nations who are at war. Because it's not your call to make.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1279907635' post='2386127']
And Caprios did[b] post[/b] the essay. As for aggrieved parties, GOONS recognizes Caprios a member of CoJ, making CoJ part of the equation. No amount of talking out of both sides of your mouth is going to change the fact that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
[/quote]
He posted it but he did not write it, your pedantry serves nobody. And as I said before, he is part of this USSR/GOONS conflict, we do not recognize him as a member of CoJ at this time. Beefspari was mistaken, before.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1279907103' post='2386105']
Wow, now that you've posted the policy, would you care to explain why Beefspari did not grant a 24-hour ceasefire and did not post terms until well after 24 hours? You guys are pathetic.
[/quote]
Sure, if you really want me to:

Because it was an AA-encompassing offer and could have been fulfilled by anyone from USSR (not CoJ mind you), and required more effort than usual, I gave them more than 24 hour window to fulfill it. Because I'm such a nice person. As a trade-off, because nobody seemed that eager to do the terms, I didn't grant a ceasefire.

So if you really want to push that issue, and stick with the "why was there no ceasefire," we can go with "why did I allow them more than 24 hours to do the terms," in which case no matter who did what terms they shouldn't've even been eligible for peace since it was outside the standard window.

And nowhere in my terms does it say I have to get back to them and present terms within 24 hours. I do have other things to do you know.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='23 July 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1279907719' post='2386134']
Applicants to alliances should be required to settle any issues themselves before being accepted. If the alliance wants to assist them, then fine. With regards to the specific issue here, I don't think CoJ should have asked Nemesis to help them with an issue they had nothing to do with. On the other hand, some of the GOONS who went into Nemesis' channel afterwards were out of line. That's not that related though, so the point is this: The applicant must do what the attacker wants to get peace before joining an alliance.
[/quote]

Nemesis was involved in the conversation because GOONS aided a nation at war with Nemesis and Cult of Justitia. That said, when the opportunity came to help our ally with what we thought was a reasonable exchange of leniency from both parties, we took it.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1279907828' post='2386139']
That the kind of retarded thinking that got GATO attacked over terms that were over a year old. Gladyou learned something. GOONS asked for a 600-word essay, they got one, then they asked for another one. Your position that GOONS can change its terms after they're filled forever-and-ever amen basically institutionalizes endless war. Karma could decide that the amount of tech they got from NPO wasn't enough, and attack them for more tomorrow.
[/quote]

I have this image of schatt arguing with his child's elementary school teacher:

"What are you talking about? The homework was done! And he handed it in! The fact that I wrote it is neither here nor there!"

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1279907655' post='2386130']

Oh, and Beefspari delayed the posting of the terms due to OOC reasons.
[/quote]
If Beefspari is incapable of fulfilling the duties of her post, perhaps GOONS should be responsible and get her a deputy.

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1279907680' post='2386132']
there's a certain irony in Schattenmann accusing someone else of making up something to do with a war.
[/quote]
I think it's absolutely hilarious that GOONS keeps bringing up the Bubblegum War likes it's some kind of Schattenmann Kryptonite. It's two years later and you're still crying, my former Browncoats pal.

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='23 July 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1279907719' post='2386134']
The applicant must do what the attacker wants to get peace before joining an alliance.
[/quote]
As I said, Chief, the terms GOONS dictated to a member of CoJ (Caprios, former leader of USSR)--an essay and two pictures--were filled.