A debate on accepting nations at war

[Delta1212]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1279904986' post='2386035']
The question was posed with names omitted specifically to prevent the accusation of 'crying on OWF'. GOONS is not concerned about retaliatory attacks from techraid targets. We don't complain about those and deal with them on a regular basis. Our main concern with this scenario is where an alliance decides to accept one of the retaliating nations onto their AA and assume they can now demand we peace out with the said nation. Note, I said demand. In most circumstances, we'll peace out if someone is cordial and approaches us with professionalism. Not only was this not done, but an outside party was brought in to help push the demands, and threats were issued.
[/quote]
The "Would it change your mind if"s were all clearly situation specific and worded in such a way as to encourage a bias towards the position that GOONS has taken in the issue, thus allowing for a typical "present your side of the story first to garner sympathy" but under the pretense that you are being objective and without identifying details. Of course, anyone who is thinking things through should have realized it'd take two pages or less for the specific details to be released. That leaves us with a situation where GOONS is attempting to garner sympathy for the situation they find themselves in.

Whether it was intended as a cry to the public doesn't really change the fact the presentation is clearly not impartial and that this effectively makes it that cry for support for GOONS' stance on proper conduct.

Thus it is ironic considering GOONS' typical stance on moral pleas to the public.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1279908101' post='2386154']
As I said, Chief, the terms GOONS dictated to a member of CoJ (Caprios, former leader of USSR)--an essay and two pictures--were filled.
[/quote]
You can't repeat this into truth Shatt, it wasn't a valid essay because he did not write it.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1279908253' post='2386159']
You can't repeat this into truth Shatt, it wasn't a valid essay because he did not write it.
[/quote]

I agree with Sardonic on this particular issue. Whatever you may think about mercy board, it is pretty clear that everything submitted must be original.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1279908101' post='2386154']
I think it's absolutely hilarious that GOONS keeps bringing up the Bubblegum War likes it's some kind of Schattenmann Kryptonite. It's two years later and you're still crying, my former Browncoats pal.
[/quote]

If you had at any point in your CN career showed that you had learnt a single thing from any of your many misadventures, people wouldn't keep bringing them up. As you still exhibit the same ridiculous egotism and overinflated sense of your own skill, worth, and importance, I'm going to keep mentioning that when the chips were down you faked a war to get out of your obligations and then ran like a coward leaving other people to clean up the excrement you had smeared on the walls.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1279908253' post='2386159']
You can't repeat this into truth Shatt, it wasn't a valid essay because he did not write it.
[/quote]
[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='23 July 2010 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1279908399' post='2386164']
I agree with Sardonic on this particular issue. Whatever you may think about mercy board, it is pretty clear that everything submitted must be original.
[/quote]
I did not create the problem. GOONS was making fun of Caprios for switchign to CoJ before the terms were given to him. They gave the terms to someone they considered a member of CoJ, and they were filled. The terms are not about any material recompense for the war, they're a 5-yr-old antic, and GOONS got their giggles. GOONS agreement to accept a new essay from Caprios--still a member of CoJ--or any other member of former member of USSR only more clearly illustrates the impish nature of the demands.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1279908101' post='2386154']
If Beefspari is incapable of fulfilling the duties of her post, perhaps GOONS should be responsible and get her a deputy.
[/quote]
Her duty specifies nothing about how quickly a mercy request is handled. In the few cases where she was indisposed, she has gone above her call of duty to appoint others to temporarily handle requests. This is a [i]single instance[/i], and I'd like you not to paint it as more than such.

edit: grammar derp

Edited July 23, 2010 by ktarthan

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279908488' post='2386166']
If you had at any point in your CN career showed that you had learnt a single thing from any of your many misadventures, people wouldn't keep bringing them up. As you still exhibit the same ridiculous egotism and overinflated sense of your own skill, worth, and importance, I'm going to keep mentioning that when the chips were down you faked a war to get out of your obligations and then ran like a coward leaving other people to clean up the excrement you had smeared on the walls.
[/quote]
Your tears are deeleeshus. You cared so much about Browncoats situation after losing half its gov that you were more interested in the Water Cooler and didn't notice anythign was wrong until you got anarchied. I had more posts on the BC forum after a month of membership than you managed to get in 6. While understandably-out-of-their-minds confused/angry Browncoats wrecked the plan by revealing it, it stand out as one of the most beautiful maneouvres in history.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Biazt' date='23 July 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1279907879' post='2386141']
Greed. Greed and tears. Those are the reasons.[/quote]

Well it's one or the other, no matter how much hyperbolic spin you want to try and put on my words. People either tech raid for profit and/or fun. In the unusual case of the Red Safari there have been people pointing out that it was to show NPO that they cannot dictate their policies. I'm not going to go into any debate of whether that's a reasonable reason to start a war, there's 36 pages for that already, but do you genuinely think either reason is justifiable when it comes to offering any terms at all, even a lulzy essay?

[quote]You can keep trying to push the mistakenly completed tech deal as [u][b]A CLEAR ACT OF WAR[/b][/u] but that's quite the stretch.[/quote]

So it's a clear act of war committed by mistake? Does that mean it's all ok then? When a GOONS member mistakenly raids a member of a protected alliance do you say "well he didn't mean to so deal with it," or do you attempt to fix the situation with the aggrieved party?

[quote]Not to mention we offered 50t to compensate you.[/quote]

and we suggested we simply forget about the situation if you did likewise, I don't think that's unreasonable myself.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Biazt' date='23 July 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1279907879' post='2386141']
You can keep trying to push the mistakenly completed tech deal as [u][b]A CLEAR ACT OF WAR[/b][/u] but that's quite the stretch.
[/quote]

No aiding somebody at war has always been seen as an act of war.

When its clearly the isolated mistake of an idiot individual it's usually dealt with reasonably, but it is an act of war, nobody likes to see people funding somebody who trying to hurt them. Its not the alliances fault, but they still accept responsibility for it.

Its one of those golden rule standards of CN politics, like dealing with ghosts or rogue attacks. Alliances treat the incidents reasonably so they can in turn expect the same treatment when they are on the other end, you smack down your members who aid people at war, so you have standing to request the same later.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1279908665' post='2386174']
I did not create the problem. GOONS was making fun of Caprios for switchign to CoJ before the terms were given to him. They gave the terms to someone they considered a member of CoJ, and they were filled. The terms are not about any material recompense for the war, they're a 5-yr-old antic, and GOONS got their giggles. GOONS agreement to accept a new essay from Caprios--still a member of CoJ--or any other member of former member of USSR only more clearly illustrates the impish nature of the demands.
[/quote]
What went on was dishonesty. Someone who wasn't USSR did the terms on behalf of USSR and then lied about it. Had you actually approached me and asked if this was okay, I may have even said yes. The reason it was denied was because you did them for him, told him to LIE and NOT let us know you did it, and claim he did it himself. This is underhanded and a horrible example to be setting. You can come up with any reasons or excuses you want. It comes down to the fact that you lied and tried to cover it up and get away with it. If you had really cared and wanted to do this diplomatically and on their behalf, you would've asked me about it, not told him to lie.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='23 July 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1279908915' post='2386187']
No aiding somebody at war has always been seen as an act of war.

When its clearly the isolated mistake of an idiot individual it's usually dealt with reasonably, but it is an act of war, nobody likes to see people funding somebody who trying to hurt them. Its not the alliances fault, but they still accept responsibility for it.

Its one of those golden rule standards of CN politics, like dealing with ghosts or rogue attacks. Alliances treat the incidents reasonably so they can in turn expect the same treatment when they are on the other end, you smack down your members who aid people at war, so you have standing to request the same later.
[/quote]

Act of war or not, we offered compensation, and it was not accepted.

[Delta1212]

I've learned something new today.

Schatt, does CoJ allow outside tech deals? Caprios has an empty slot and I need tech.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='23 July 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1279908915' post='2386187']
When its clearly the isolated mistake of an idiot individual it's usually dealt with reasonably, but it is an act of war, nobody likes to see people funding somebody who trying to hurt them. Its not the alliances fault, but they still accept responsibility for it.
[/quote]
He was not "funded," he was sent 50t and only 50t (no money, no soldiers) by a 6,600 NS nation who now only has 4 tech of his own. He was not "funded," he was sent 50t for a tech deal completion. Besides, we offered to handle this and they weren't interested -- but they still want to try and use it as leverage to smear us. So there was an attempt to "deal with it responsibly," they dropped it, but still want to us it as ammo.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1279909147' post='2386196']
He was not "funded," he was sent 50t and only 50t (no money, no soldiers) by a 6,600 NS nation who now only has 4 tech of his own. He was not "funded," he was sent 50t for a tech deal completion. Besides, we offered to handle this and they weren't interested -- but they still want to try and use it as leverage to smear us. So there was an attempt to "deal with it responsibly," they dropped it, but still want to us it as ammo.
[/quote]
Well ok, then.

This topic is still monumentally stupid, though.

[lamuella]

there's something abidingly pathetic about someone who isn't just bad enough at governance that he crashed and burned an entire alliance singlehandedly but also cowardly enough to have run away from the wreckage [i]and[/i] somehow manages to be proud of the whole thing.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Lamuella

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1279908991' post='2386191']
What went on was dishonesty. [b]Someone who wasn't USSR did the terms on behalf of USSR [/b]and then lied about it. Had you actually approached me and asked if this was okay, I may have even said yes. The reason it was denied was because you did them for him, told him to LIE and NOT let us know you did it, and claim he did it himself. This is underhanded and a horrible example to be setting. You can come up with any reasons or excuses you want. It comes down to the fact that you lied and tried to cover it up and get away with it. If you had really cared and wanted to do this diplomatically and on their behalf, you would've asked me about it, not told him to lie.
[/quote]
Caprios was not in USSR, either. In either case, it would have been CoJ submitting the essay.

As to approaching GOONS about the authorship, I asked babyjesus whether I could post it to speed things up, or whether Caprios should post it. Granted he is not the Mercy Boards mod, his reply was that Caprios should post it.

[quote name='Schattenmann']to laugh my $@! off in the hall.

Does Caprio need to post it himself, or for expedience's sake is it alright if I just post it? I don't see why it would make a difference since beefspari is on the "Caprio abandoned his alliance" kick but then again she's also the kind of person that goes to the trouble of a "Schattenmann is a baby" marquee.[/quote]
[quote name='babyjesus']I believe someone from USSR (Caprio is OK too) would have to post it. I'm glad it's good, I'm looking forward to reading it.
[/quote]
"Caprio is ok, too" Everyone in GOONS regarded Caprio as no longer USSR, but out the other side of your mouth you want Caprio to post it because he is USSR. That's what is so ridiculous.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1279909147' post='2386196']
He was not "funded," he was sent 50t and only 50t (no money, no soldiers) by a 6,600 NS nation who now only has 4 tech of his own. He was not "funded," he was sent 50t for a tech deal completion.[/quote]

If you want to take funded at it's very literal meaning then sure, it would be a fool who claims 50 tech doesn't assist a war effort though.

[quote]Besides, we offered to handle this and they weren't interested -- but they still want to try and use it as leverage to smear us. So there was an attempt to "deal with it responsibly," they dropped it, but still want to us it as ammo.
[/quote]

Funny, we too attempted to handle it with the compromise but you weren't interested. It's not an attempt to smear you, an attempt to smear for example would be someone saying we were threatening war because you tech raided USSR. The main reason I personally brought it up is because it was part of a reasonable attempt to secure peace for a member of CoJ. The way you offered to handle it was unacceptable to us, just as our offer was unacceptable to you.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1279909490' post='2386208']
Caprios was not in USSR, either. In either case, it would have been CoJ submitting the essay.

As to approaching GOONS about the authorship, I asked babyjesus whether I could post it to speed things up, or whether Caprios should post it. Granted he is not the Mercy Boards mod, his reply was that Caprios should post it.



"Caprio is ok, too" Everyone in GOONS regarded Caprio as no longer USSR, but out the other side of your mouth you want Caprio to post it because he is USSR. That's what is so ridiculous.
[/quote]
It doesn't really matter who posts it, it's who writes it that's important, and nobody in the USSR/GOONS conflict wrote that essay, that is why it was rejected. And while certain people were confused as to his status, he is still an enemy combatant at war with GOONS as part of the GOONS/USSR conflict. We did not and do not a member of CoJ.

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='23 July 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1279909784' post='2386216']

Funny, we too attempted to handle it with the compromise but you weren't interested.
[/quote]
Your "compromise" was to let USSR go for it, which is something we were not prepared to do. Moreover it's a completely different incident and the two are not related. It would be improper to mix them. In the end you can't deny you were offered compensation.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sardonic

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='23 July 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1279909407' post='2386205']
there's something abidingly pathetic about someone who isn't just bad enough at governance that he crashed and burned an entire alliance singlehandedly but also cowardly enough to have run away from the wreckage [i]and[/i] somehow manages to be proud of the whole thing.

but then there's something abidingly pathetic about essentially everything schatt has ever done in this world, so it doesn't really stand out.
[/quote]
There's everything pathetic about a grown man that isn't over an alliance he was basically ghosting two years after it disbanded.

[quote name='Delta1212' date='23 July 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1279909063' post='2386193']
I've learned something new today.

Schatt, does CoJ allow outside tech deals? Caprios has an empty slot and I need tech.
[/quote]
You are perfectly welcome to enter into transactiosn with Caprios. And when GOONS complains that you've aided someone they're fighting, I would advise you to point them to this thread where they say it's not a problem to do so if it's a tech deal.

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1279909147' post='2386196']
He was not "funded," he was sent 50t and only 50t (no money, no soldiers) by a 6,600 NS nation who now only has 4 tech of his own. He was not "funded," he was sent 50t for a tech deal completion. Besides, we offered to handle this and they weren't interested -- but they still want to try and use it as leverage to smear us. So there was an attempt to "deal with it responsibly," they dropped it, but still want to us it as ammo.
[/quote]
We gave you a very reasonable offer: accept the essay that you wanted, and we would not worry about the aid you sent a rogue against Nemesis, CoJ, and the Peace and Love Train bloc. You're so caught up in being a giggling bureaucrat that you couldn't accept the offer.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Moridin]

[quote name='Beefspari' date='23 July 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1279908991' post='2386191']
What went on was dishonesty. Someone who wasn't USSR did the terms on behalf of USSR and then lied about it. Had you actually approached me and asked if this was okay, I may have even said yes. The reason it was denied was because you did them for him, told him to LIE and NOT let us know you did it, and claim he did it himself. This is underhanded and a horrible example to be setting. You can come up with any reasons or excuses you want. It comes down to the fact that you lied and tried to cover it up and get away with it. If you had really cared and wanted to do this diplomatically and on their behalf, you would've asked me about it, not told him to lie.
[/quote]

Oh for christ's sake, do you actually care who wrote the damn essay? That's quite possibly one of the stupidest and most worthless peace terms ever to grace this earth. It's remarkable that you can actually keep a straight face while telling Schattenmann he is setting a "horrible example" by fulfilling a term for someone else that is, which ever way you spin it, a complete and utter waste of time that benefits absolutely nobody. If all you want is a quick laugh then it doesn't matter who wrote it, be it Schattenmann, the raid victim, or Admin himself. The fact that you weren't informed that someone else wrote the essay really shouldn't matter in the least because it's a moronic term to impose in the first place. The only group setting a bad example at all in this situation is GOONS, but then again we've all come to expect that.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Moridin' date='23 July 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1279909946' post='2386223']
Oh for christ's sake, do you actually care who wrote the damn essay?
[/quote]
Yes, actually, it does matter, they made a mockery of the mercy board. More importantly, they lied to us.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1279910146' post='2386230']
Yes, actually, it does matter, they made a mockery of the mercy board. More importantly, they lied to us.
[/quote]

That's fitting, given that the purpose of the mercy board is to make a mockery of the raid victim.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Moridin' date='23 July 2010 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1279910230' post='2386235']
That's fitting, given that the purpose of the mercy board is to make a mockery of the raid victim.
[/quote]
No, it isn't.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1279910146' post='2386230']
Yes, actually, it does matter, they made a mockery of the mercy board. More importantly, they lied to us.
[/quote]
We didn't lie to anyone.

[quote]Caprios,We have written the essay that GOONS wants for you. I am including it below. Post it at GOONS forum in the mercy board thread that you have. After it is posted, all attacks should stop. Save the pictures and upload them to your own photobucket, just in case GOONS won't accept them if they know we did it. Do not mention that we wrote it for you[/quote]

I instructed Caprios to post the essay and not tell anyone who wrote it. Surprise, surprise, GOONS proved me right by acting exactly the way I said they would.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1279910364' post='2386241']
We didn't lie to anyone.

I instructed Caprios to post the essay and not tell anyone who wrote it. Surprise, surprise, GOONS proved me right by acting exactly the way I said they would.
[/quote]
Lie, plagiarize, whatever you call it, you willfully undermined the integrity of our mercy board.