A debate on accepting nations at war

[RustyNail]

Oh, I never said it wasn't foolish And leaving A and B's issue out of the equation, C seems opportunistic but without every detail, it's hard to really make a judgement call.

Either way, I maintain my theorem

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='RustyNail' date='23 July 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1279904829' post='2386026']
Oh, I never said it wasn't foolish And leaving A and B's issue out of the equation, C seems opportunistic but without every detail, it's hard to really make a judgement call.

Either way, I maintain my theorem
[/quote]
But, but, but, you're wrong...

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='23 July 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1279904697' post='2386016']
words
[/quote]
I did not start this discussion seeking sympathy nor a place to vent. I merely wished to understand better the community's opinions on the matter. Do not mistake this for a whine, alliance A are more than happy with the way the situation played out.

[nippy]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='23 July 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1279904697' post='2386016']
I already responded to this, but I'll be more direct. I've participated in all of one tech raid in four years, myself, but I allow my members to do so if they wish. I don't know exactly what I'd do in this situation, but I would most certainly not run to the OWF with it, even in vague terms. It's very difficult to sympathize withthe guy who threw the first punch, even for other people who go around throwing punches. This is because you should know what you're getting yourself into when you allow raiding, especially of micro-alliances, and if you can't deal with the consequences by yourself, you shouldn't be doing it inthe first place.

Or is this a complaint that someone is acting in a fashion that goes against what you perceive as proper behavior? Actually, That seems wrong because I'm pretty sure I've been told that talking about how somethig is wrong is pointless unless you're going to do something about it and only actions matter.
[/quote]


The question was posed with names omitted specifically to prevent the accusation of 'crying on OWF'. GOONS is not concerned about retaliatory attacks from techraid targets. We don't complain about those and deal with them on a regular basis. Our main concern with this scenario is where an alliance decides to accept one of the retaliating nations onto their AA and assume they can now demand we peace out with the said nation. Note, I said demand. In most circumstances, we'll peace out if someone is cordial and approaches us with professionalism. Not only was this not done, but an outside party was brought in to help push the demands, and threats were issued.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

Hmmmm, these tears taste new and refreshing

[nippy]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='23 July 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1279905055' post='2386039']
Hmmmm, these tears taste new and refreshing
[/quote]

I see you have no actual opinion on the topic at hand. Thank you for your contribution.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='23 July 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1279897662' post='2385884']
The OP is full of vague statements. Usually these cases come down to the details in the facts of the individual nation's case.

And I get the feeling the OP is thinking of some particular incident but doesn't want to disclose the details for whatever reason; probably because of drama.
[/quote]
Indeed, my good Halflinger!

GOONS is suddenly interested in world opinion--where usually they scoff at the notions of international standards or international law--because of such a particular incident.

Sardonic's vagueries neglect to include the nuance need in a debate like this. Suffice it to say that Cult of Justitia has accepted several members of a micro-AA that defended themselves form GOONS's aggressive war like any other allianc would. Except GOONS doesn't consider the micro a "real" alliance, so they enter a surreal world where their initial aggressive act of war is not that, and they say they are in a defensive war. They claim that the micro is anot an alliance, but when !@#$ gets real, they claim that the micro is a real alliance and now they're in an alliance war.

When each member of the micro was accepted, we odered the victim to send a peace offer, stop all defensive attacks, and then CoJ sent a letter to all nations at war with the victim explaining that he had joined CJ and we'd appreciate their acceptance of the peace offer. GOONS is super cool so they ignored the PMs. GOONS recognized the members as now-members of CoJ, but refsed to stop their attacks. They also alluded that any aid to the members of CoJ would result in military action, which became horribly ironic the next day.[b][color="#FF0000"]*[/color][/b]

Since GOONS wasn't willing to act according to worldwide standards and just call it even when the micro began joining CoJ and give them peace, CoJ, GOONS, and the micro came into an agreement for peace. GOONS issued peace terms: write an essay and draw two pictures. CoJ wrote the essay and made the pictures, and instructed the leader of the micro--who was by that time a member of CoJ--to post the essay and not allude to the fact that we wrote it. I told him not to say we wrote it becaus eI know how petty and unreasonable GOONS is. Unfortunately, he c/p'ed that part, so GOONS rejected the essay. [i]If GOONS had asked for money or tech and CoJ nations sent it, they would not have cancelled the aid offers--alliance pay off their friends' terms all the damned time.[/i] The terms were filled, but GOONS needs a constant stream of rageporn to keep their juices flowing. We explained to them very logically that the authorship of the essay wasn't even an issue; the leader they were negotiating with was a member of CoJ, so whether he wrote it or we wrote it, it still came from CoJ. Instead of using their brains, they then said that a a third person still flying the micro AA had to write one, then. Utter tripe.

[b][color="#FF0000"]*[/color][/b]While all this was going on, GOONS aided a nuke rogue at war with CoJ. While GOONS craps their pants and comes knocking if someone aids a nation they're fighting, CoJ is more understanding. We said if they would be cool about the micro AA, we'd be cool about the aid. Pretty even trade considering I've taken two nukes off the former GOONS member who is attacking me. Going against everything GOONS ever says about aid in war, they said the aid was not an issue--it's perfectly fine for someone to techdeal with a nuke rogue in active wars. [i]Right.[/i] [b]This is the second time that GOONS has aided the [i]same[/i] nuke rogue while he was at war with CoJ.[/b] When a member of CoJ aided Mathrage while he was at war with GOONS, GOONS demanded $20,000,000 from CoJ for one nuke, negotiating to $6m and 50 tech after MK informed GOONS that GOONS would not be allowed to attack us. When GOONS aided a nation nuking me, I asked them to give a micro-AA a break. When they didn't do that, I dropped it. I hope that the alliances of the Peace and Love Train are not so understanding since they are also at war with the same rogue.

Seeing that GOONS is as unreasonable and warthirsty as we already knew they are, we got an ally involved when it became apparent that they were not hearing what we were saying. That's how the world works. And when you give no option but war and understand nothing but force, that's what the verbage comes down to.

So suck it up and stop acting you're the victims of some international conspiracy of moralists. You're victims of your own clumsiness and buffoonery.

When faced with the third-pary mutual ally, GOONS did not become any more diplomatic, instead telling our ally that they were stupid if they thought the third-party ally would choose them over GOONS.

CoJ, our ally, a third-party mutual ally, and GOONS have resolved to submit a new essay and pictures because we're so reasonable, so GOONS can sleep easy. Instead of attempting to display the class we know they are incapable of, GOONS's banned ruler second-in-command entered our ally's IRC channel and tried his dead-level damndest to troll us until he was ignored into leaving.

For bonus points, while screaming their nerdrage to the high heavens about CoJ's actions and claiming that we need to be more diplomatic, Sardonic took it upon himself to edit the thread wherein we're negotiating peace to include this:
[IMG]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/CoJ/beefspari.jpg[/IMG]
Yeah, CoJ sure is a diplomatically unsound alliance. We're serious instigators. The thread also contains GOONS member's wish that Rebel_Virginia get hit by a train. I understand these for the childish provocations they are, so I'm not upset but rather amused, and bring them up only in response to Sardonic's claims that diplomatic norms have been ignored on our part.

So basically, GOONS started a war, CoJ tried to end it, GOONS is doing its damndest to keep it going, has started aiding nations at war with COJ, and is now asking for the public to accdentally affirm their actions by rolling out this cloak-and-dagger question full of undefined variables.

Now that you all know why Sardonic's grossly obtuse OP is so grossly obtuse, we can argue his question in isolation of this incident, but with knowledge of its provocation and an understanding of its silliness.

[center]____________________________[/center]

Techraiding alliances just [i]looooove[/i] to say "The victim should just join an alliance, problem solved, derp nyaaaah" So, that's the option we offered a group of techraid victims, and that's the option many victims take.

Techraids, done properly, begin with a carte blanche offer of peace, so accepting someone involved in a techraid is in general an admission of someone who is getting peace at any second. Additionally, regardless of how the raid is going, many raiding AAs, like \m/, offer peace as sooon as a victim joins an alliance. They've got their tech, they're big boys and they go find a new victim.

GOONS is the only alliance that's got a huge problem with this because as far as I can tell they're theonly raiding alliance that makes peace for victms so hard. Rather than being happy to raid, they also need to make the targets' lives hell, which distinguishes them from other lifestyle raiding AAs like \m/, PC or adament raiders like GOD.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1279905187' post='2386040']
I see you have no actual opinion on the topic at hand. Thank you for your contribution.
[/quote]
You're welcome. Thank you for your's.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Shakira]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' date='23 July 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1279904103' post='2386002']



The microalliance isn't defending itself. The members of said microalliance are using the structure and treaties of an alliance they had no previous part in to fight their battles for them.
[/quote]
"Microalliance B declares war on A over it and attacks people who were not involved in the initial raids against B."

Does seem like the microalliance is defending itself. Showing that they won't bend over to raiders.

[magicninja]

If we are talking alliance wide war then I believe the nation needs to peace out with the alliance at war with him properly before being allowed to move on. I thought this was common knowledge? Otherwise you get alliances who tell members to join say a neutral alliance during wartime and rebuild and then rejoin the fight. No alliance worth it's salt will allow that to happen and anyone who contributes to such an action willingly and with threats of force should be considered engaging in an act of war themselves.

If it is a raid then I still don't think the accepting alliance can demand a stop to attacks with threats of force. After the original wars expire no new wars should be declared though.

GATO has a policy of never accepting any nation with active wars raid or otherwise. A nation will only be accepted once it is completely peaced out. We will speak with an attacking alliance about ending the war but in no way would we even use threats. It just a simple "Hey this guy applied, we would appreciate it if you can peace him out so we can accept him". If they say no we realize there is nothing we can do but wait for the wars to expire. When you're cool about it and go about it the right way most alliances will oblige.

[nippy]

Oh look, it's Schatt. We tried to keep this nameless, but since you're going to attempt to smear us like that, here are the logs from your conversation with Beefspari:

[quote][9:43:33 PM] * Now talking in #ussr
[9:43:33 PM] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Beefspari[GOONS]
[9:43:42 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Evening sirs and ma'ams.
[9:43:47 PM] <Schattenmann> Good evening
[9:43:48 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> hi
[9:44:01 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> yo
[9:44:15 PM] <Schattenmann> So basically we need to make sure that the essay submission has been accepted
[9:44:28 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> It wasn't. Not at all.
[9:44:30 PM] <Schattenmann> And pictures
[9:44:40 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> then throw it away and give them peace
[9:45:09 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> That makes no sense at all.
[9:45:17 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> sure it does
[9:45:25 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> they are an alliance with allies amirite?
[9:45:32 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> you attacked them.. give them peace before it escalates
[9:45:34 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> only makes sense
[9:45:41 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Actually they attacked us, but still no.
[9:46:00 PM] <Schattenmann> You guys got an essay and pictures, he's wearing our AA anyway
[9:46:08 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> well.. you attacked them first..
[9:46:22 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> So once the wars end with that guy who's in CoJ he'll be off the hook and he can go about his business. Seems fair.
[9:46:33 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> wait he is in CoJ now??
[9:46:33 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> We won't declare new wars with someone in CoJ.
[9:46:38 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> well that changes things
[9:46:42 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> see you cant attack CoJ
[9:46:47 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> and then aid a guy attacking CoJ
[9:46:53 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> and expect to just walk away from it whistling
[9:46:57 PM] <Yawoo> Makes us a tad touchy it does
[9:46:59 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> We didn't attack CoJ. He attacked us, and then changed to CoJ. Once the war expires that'll be the end of it.
[9:47:07 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> So if you want to use THAT angle
[9:47:09 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> CoJ attacked us.
[9:47:10 PM] <Schattenmann> You did aid Smacky, though
[9:47:19 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> and that makes it seem
[9:47:21 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> like a strike against CoJ
[9:47:26 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> any idiot could see that
[9:47:47 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> It's a strike against CoJ that some guy attacked us, then changed to CoJ?
[9:48:01 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> thats not what i said
[9:48:05 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> not very good word twisting
[9:48:07 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> let me slow it down
[9:48:13 PM] <Yawoo> No, but you aiding a guy attacking CoJ is certainly a strike against them.
[9:48:53 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> It's weird you're saying we're "attacking CoJ" when we were on the defending end of the war. If you're going to consider him a CoJ member, that means CoJ attacked us.
[9:49:09 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> are we talking about that smacky fella?
[9:49:11 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> A member of an alliance applied to CoJ, he was under attack. ordinarily alliances will give peace to said member just to avoid escalating things. This didn't happen, a member of GOONS then went ahead and aided a guy "smacky" who was attacking CoJ, making it seem like you are striking out against CoJ
[9:49:13 PM] <Schattenmann> Smacky is at war with CoJ. Yesterday, Seadogs aided him
[9:49:27 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Smacky is also at war with TRaPS
[9:49:30 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Oh hey guys!
[9:49:47 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> you make a good point and all, and imma let you finish but, I really dont like the fact you're aiding the guy attacking my protectorate
[9:49:49 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> jus sayin
[9:49:56 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> and by the way, the risks of raiding are such: You raid, you are hitting first. No matter how you try and spin it after
[9:49:59 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Are you talking about this guy?
[9:50:00 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=281915
[9:50:13 PM] <Schattenmann> Yes
[9:50:20 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> He's not even in GOONS so what the hell do I care what he's up to?
[9:50:29 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> I dont know?
[9:50:31 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> A goons member aided him
[9:50:33 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> which as you know
[9:50:34 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> thats what I'm wondering
[9:50:34 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> is an act of war
[9:50:38 PM] <Schattenmann> Check his aid screen
[9:50:39 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> are you even reading
[9:50:50 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> 7/22/2010 1:24:55 AM
[9:50:53 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> "Financial Assistance"
[9:50:54 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> [Team: Black]
[9:50:55 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Afgoonistan
[9:50:57 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Ruler: Seadogs
[9:50:59 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
[9:51:01 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> [Team: None]
[9:51:03 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Back Hand
[9:51:04 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Ruler: Smacky
[9:51:06 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> He aided him 50t, he must've owed him for a tech deal.
[9:51:06 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> Crusty Tampax Syndrome
[9:51:07 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> $0
[9:51:09 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> 50 Tech
[9:51:10 PM] <LittleRena[TRaPS]> 0 Soldiers
[9:51:26 PM] <Schattenmann> The best and fastest thing for GOONS to do in regards to CoJ, USSR, and Smacky is to accept the essay, and grant USSR peace
[9:51:28 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> I can understand that
[9:51:50 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Why should I accept the essay? You lied about it and tried to pass it off as someone else's work.
[9:52:06 PM] <Schattenmann> <Schattenmann> The best and fastest thing
[9:52:08 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> Let it go before Nemesis feels the need to spank some children
[9:52:28 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> I like to spank!
[9:52:37 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Are you threatening to go to war with GOONS over some random 4-man alliance?
[9:52:46 PM] <Yawoo> CoJ is family.
[9:52:48 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> no for CoJ you silly person
[9:52:57 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> hey, imma interrupt right there
[9:52:57 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> For members of CoJ
[9:53:07 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> I have no idea, nor really have any business about this
[9:53:19 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> I am here for that smack fella to be delt with
[9:53:23 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> so can we talk about that first
[9:53:26 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> then you can go to war
[9:53:30 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> k
[9:53:57 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> apparently, the aid sent to the smacky guy, was a tech deal
[9:53:58 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> So beat up Smacky and take his tech for all I care. It looks like he was finishing a tech deal. I could check into that if you wanted. But just looks like a tech deal to me, not "aiding him to war CoJ"
[9:54:01 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> I can understand that
[9:54:35 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> the timing seems odd
[9:54:42 PM] <Biff[CoJ]> I remember Sargun starting a tech deal that was looked at in a totally different light
[9:54:43 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> there were no aid packages to SeaDogs
[9:54:45 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> for the past week
[9:54:47 PM] <Schattenmann> Aid during war is aid during war regardless of the mistake that was made. I'm saying to you that we're very willing to be cool about it if you're willing to be cool about USSR
[9:54:58 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> He is pushing close to our ZI list, for lying, attacking a protectorate, and using a nuke
[9:54:58 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> ^^
[9:55:17 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> Zi list?? he wont go on any list for me, but he will be ZI'd by the time the war is over..
[9:55:31 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> like I said, thats your deal
[9:55:33 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> not mine
[9:55:46 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> he told me he would peace out. then the next night he used a nuke
[9:55:56 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> oh lawl
[9:56:00 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> also so yeah
[9:56:26 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> Beef, put this thing in the past and we wont follow this aiding an enemy thing
[9:56:30 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> makes everything easier for everyone
[9:56:33 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Caprios,We have written the essay that GOONS wants for you. I am including it below. Post it at GOONS forum in the mercy board thread that you have. After it is posted, all attacks should stop. Save the pictures and upload them to your own photobucket, just in case GOONS won't accept them if they know we did it. Do not mention that we wrote it for you.
[9:56:36 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> That is why USSR isn't getting peace.
[9:56:48 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> sigh...
[9:57:06 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> We were willing to be cool about it but you guys haven't played very nice.
[9:57:34 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I could compensate you 50t for the horrible injustice that was Seadogs sending 50t to Smacky if you want.
[9:58:12 PM] <Schattenmann> It's a matter of semantics. Caprios has already applied to and been admitted to CoJ. HE's a memeber of CoJ. So whether he wrote it or someone else in COJ wrote it, it was written by CoJ
[9:58:13 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> But Smacky has nothing to do with us other than getting a random 50t from an apparent tech deal.
[9:58:29 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> alright sounds good enough to me
[9:58:47 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> The deal was for USSR to get peace, not CoJ. If Caprios wants peace, the war will be over with him once the current wars expire in a day or two. After that no new wars will be declared and he can go about his business in CoJ.
[10:00:27 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> GOONS are not being very understanding about this.... Also hey!
[10:00:41 PM] <Schattenmann> The terms you gave to Caprios were for peace for USSR, they're been met
[10:00:49 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> They weren't met by USSR.
[10:01:13 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> OMG!
[10:01:19 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Really?
[10:01:21 PM] <Yawoo> Where did it say he had to write everything himself?
[10:01:35 PM] <Yawoo> Dunno if that's been addressed or not, I can't remembering seeing it
[10:02:12 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I said in the terms: You may have others from your alliance contribute to the writing or pictures.
[10:02:16 PM] <Schattenmann> At this point you're saying that the authorship of the essay doesn't matter bc Caprios is CoJ, so stop making an issue of the authorship and take the essay
[10:02:22 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I didn't say "Or random people from CoJ can do them and then lie and say you did it."
[10:02:23 PM] <Biff[CoJ]> He's in CoJ
[10:03:02 PM] <Yawoo> You didn't exclude other people from helping either
[10:03:07 PM] <Yawoo> So your argument doesn't hold water
[10:03:30 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Well I also didn't say you couldn't post a link to an elephant and claim that counts either.
[10:03:37 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> The terms were there for USSR to get peace. If the guy jumped ship and you're saying he's a CoJ member now then even if he had written it it wouldn't've counted on USSR's behalf.
[10:04:05 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> then count it on his behalf and give him peace
[10:04:09 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> just give him peace jesus christ
[10:04:10 PM] <Schattenmann> You knew he was in CoJ before you even posted the terms
[10:04:10 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Why should I?
[10:04:11 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> its not !@#$@#$ hard
[10:04:16 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I never said it was hard.
[10:04:26 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> because there is obviously upset alliances about it
[10:04:28 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> and it makes !@#$@#$ sense
[10:04:45 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> we have schatt, we automatically win any elawyering due to that
[10:04:48 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I posted the terms for USSR as an alliance to fulfill. If he left before I posted them that's not my fault. I left them up for USSR to fulfill after I found out he had left and joined CoJ.
[10:04:49 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> quit while your ahead
[10:05:10 PM] <Schattenmann> That's a heroic stretch
[10:05:27 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> ^^ see?? We cant even lose that portion
[10:05:30 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> just do the right thing
[10:05:33 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> so i can go have some !@#$@#$ lunch
[10:05:50 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> I did do the right thing, by not allowing someone who tried to submit falsified material to get away with it. Cheaters never prosper you know.
[10:05:59 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> someone wrote it
[10:06:03 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> someone put effort into it
[10:06:05 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> you got the desired thing
[10:06:08 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> effort from somebody
[10:06:10 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> on behalf of USSR
[10:06:32 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> him not writing it himself is irrelvant
[10:06:35 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> irrelevant*
[10:06:37 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> completely and utterly
[10:06:38 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> No it isn't.
[10:06:41 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> yes
[10:06:45 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> because you got what you needed out of it
[10:06:51 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> "I wrote this, don't tell GOONS, pretend you did it." I'm not granting peace for liars.
[10:06:52 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Beefspari[GOONS] , I find it hard to believe that you dont want to fix this whole situation. Right?
[10:07:15 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> take that as a slight beef
[10:07:24 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> means people dont expect you to be reasonable
[10:07:44 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Fix what? You got what you want, your guy will be in CoJ unharmed pretty soon. If the remaining USSR people wnat peace they can go join some other AA. What's left to fix?
[10:08:01 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> So they get peace if they join another alliance
[10:08:06 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> but the guy who joined CoJ wont?
[10:08:08 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> double standards Beef
[10:08:15 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Thats what I heard.
[10:08:19 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> that on top of the aiding
[10:08:21 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> He's getting peace once the current wars end like I said. We aren't going to be declaring any new ones.
[10:08:26 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> starting to look like personal aggrievance towards CoJ
[10:08:33 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Looks that way.
[10:08:52 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> I just dont understand why peace can't be given just to shut this whole thing down.
[10:09:00 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> As in ASAP.
[10:09:00 PM] <Schattenmann> Exactly
[10:09:13 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Because USSR attacked us. Either they pay reps, THEY fill our terms, or we're happy to keep warring them for tech, money, and fun.
[10:09:19 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> YOU ATTACKED THEM
[10:09:23 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> no matter how you spin it
[10:09:25 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> ^^
[10:09:25 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> a tech raid is an act of war
[10:09:32 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Truth
[10:09:33 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> alliances know that when they agree to tech raiding
[10:09:36 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> denying it doesnt change the facts
[10:10:08 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> You attacked USSR. They defended.
[10:10:21 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> the burden of responsibility lies solely on GOONS
[10:10:28 PM] <Schattenmann> And if you no longer consider him USSR Then the nations he's at war with need to send peace now.
[10:10:31 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Tech raiding is a war. We could've handled it neatly on the mercy board. Instead, they declared dozens of wars to escalate it. Now they want to get off scott free. It's their fault they escalated it. And it's your fault they aren't getting peace.
[10:10:58 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> They are a noob alliance. Its your fault you are being dicks towards them and its your fault they aren't getting peace.
[10:11:19 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> It's Schattenmann's fault for trying to lie and fulfill the terms for them and keep it a secret.
[10:11:29 PM] <Yawoo> It wasn't against the terms to do that....
[10:11:30 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> oh big !@#$@#$ whoop
[10:11:33 PM] <Schattenmann> Terms fulfilled are terms fulfilled
[10:11:37 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> so he knew you guys would be @#$%^
[10:11:41 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Schattenmann was trying to fix the problem
[10:11:43 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> FAST
[10:11:44 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> and said best not to tell them
[10:11:45 PM] <Schattenmann> If you asked for tech and we sent the tech would you cancel the aid offers? No.
[10:11:58 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Maybe he should've tried to handle it diplomatically rather than lying.
[10:12:08 PM] <Schattenmann> So take the essay as what it is, fulfillment of the terms
[10:12:10 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> The terms are pretty dumb anyways.
[10:12:20 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Thanks, I wrote them myself.
[10:12:21 PM] <Schattenmann> We've been pretty !@#$@#$ diplomatic
[10:12:31 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Well they are horrible
[10:12:37 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Lying and threatening war is diplomatic?
[10:12:52 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> No lying was done
[10:12:56 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Its a point of view
[10:12:56 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> Diplomacy was done when you decided to be dicks
[10:13:04 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Large dicks
[10:13:06 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> Threatening is what I do
[10:13:17 PM] <Yawoo> I've been known to threaten once or twice myself
[10:13:24 PM] <Yawoo> especially if someone is being a dick to CoJ
[10:13:41 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> GOONS are!!
[10:13:52 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Well we're going in circles now. Your guy is yours once the wars end and no new ones will be declared. You wanted to take him so he's yours now. USSR isn't getting peace because I ruled the terms were not fulfilled to my satisfaction. Anything else you guys want?
[10:14:04 PM] <Schattenmann> If this is the baseline for diplomacy then I'm a !@#$@#$ Nobel Laureate (link removed)
[10:14:11 PM] <Daggarz[Nemesis]> Ill see you at update
[10:14:12 PM] * Parts: Daggarz[Nemesis]
[10:14:13 PM] <Yawoo> Yeah, GOONS to quit being dicks. I sure as hell want that.
[10:14:33 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> That wouldn't be near as fun.
[10:14:38 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Shoving!
[10:14:41 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> So we square?
[10:14:42 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Neutral order!
[10:14:47 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Not at all!
[10:15:03 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Good, cause that's all you get.
[10:15:06 PM] * Yawoo sighs
[10:15:11 PM] <Yawoo> I miss Daemon in charge of GOONS
[10:15:21 PM] <Yawoo> and 404
[10:15:24 PM] <Yawoo> Those were the days
[10:15:34 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> I think we need more.
[10:16:20 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Give peace. Its the right thing to do. You are reading into things, playing with words and just being outlandish about the whole thing
[10:16:38 PM] <T-O-P[Nemesis]> Its silly and GOONS are going to look pretty bad when it all fans out.
[10:18:11 PM] <Deebo[Europa]> my business is done here
[10:18:13 PM] * Parts: Deebo[Europa]
[10:18:20 PM] <Beefspari[GOONS]> Well looks like we're done, since you're trying to ask Sardonic now. Good luck with that.[/quote]

Nice 'diplomacy' there, Schat.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1279904986' post='2386035']
The question was posed with names omitted specifically to prevent the accusation of 'crying on OWF'. GOONS is not concerned about retaliatory attacks from techraid targets. We don't complain about those and deal with them on a regular basis. Our main concern with this scenario is where an alliance decides to accept one of the retaliating nations onto their AA and assume they can now demand we peace out with the said nation. Note, I said demand. In most circumstances, we'll peace out if someone is cordial and approaches us with professionalism. Not only was this not done, but an outside party was brought in to help push the demands, and threats were issued.
[/quote]
Your claims that we were no cordial and demanded peace are an outright lie, most likely a lie of ignorance. We spent a very happy hour+ with babyjesus on this issue and came to an agreement for peace. When the agreement was met, Beefspari renegged on the deal.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1279904928' post='2386032']
I did not start this discussion seeking sympathy nor a place to vent. I merely wished to understand better the community's opinions on the matter. Do not mistake this for a whine, alliance A are more than happy with the way the situation played out.
[/quote]

A raid is not a legitimate reason for war, and therefore I consider a victim of a raid a perfectly legitimate applicant for membership.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='nippy' date='23 July 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1279905816' post='2386057']
Oh look, it's Schatt. We tried to keep this nameless, but since you're going to attempt to smear us like that, here are the logs from your conversation with Beefspari:



Nice 'diplomacy' there, Schat.
[/quote]
Thank you for the visual, now everyone can see how irrational Beefspari is and how circular and masturbatory your "mercy" policy is.

The logs posted by Nippy are day two of negotiations. They occurred after USSR/CoJ fulfilled our end of the bargain and were then met with GOONS changing their minds and demanding more.

Would you do me another favor and also post the logs where Sardonic tells Nemesis that MK would never choose Nemesis over GOONS (which would of course involve GOONS forcing MK to pick one ally over the other in the first place)?

Edited July 23, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1279905461' post='2386047']
Since GOONS wasn't willing to act according to worldwide standards and just call it even when the micro began joining CoJ and give them peace
[/quote]
Now hold the phone. It is certainly not the "world standard" to accept nations at war. In fact, I would think it was a world standard not to accept nations at war. Every alliance I've ever been in (including Nordreich) would not accept a nation at war and I'd be willing to bet that if you went to the application center's of any handful of alliances, they would not accept alliances at war either. You're a smart guy, and you know that you are not stating the standard so don't play coy.

[quote name='Shakira' date='23 July 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1279905627' post='2386053']
"Microalliance B declares war on A over it and attacks people who were not involved in the initial raids against B."

Does seem like the microalliance is defending itself. Showing that they won't bend over to raiders.
[/quote]
And you'd be right, if the OP ended at that line. But it doesn't. So you're wrong. You can't just ignore everything stated after a certain point so it suits your idea.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='23 July 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1279904202' post='2386006']
Those are a lot of pretty words about raiding, but the incident in question ceased to be a tech raid when alliance B launched attacks against uninvolved nations of A. It was a war then. Don't confuse the issue.

As to your second reply, Alliance A is completely justified in their actions, and I am sure they are more than happy to contest the whimsical arguments for accepting nations in a full scale alliance war.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, you don't get to have one of your nations declare war on an alliance, then claim it's only a war when said alliance retaliates. The tech raid committed in the first instance was sanctioned by GOONS government, whether explicitly or through the regulations that government set, so there is simply no room for any complaint when the person tech raided takes the fight to GOONS.

A tech raid is a war. A GOONS member launched a sanctioned war against another alliance.

I have no problem with tech raiding, and have partaken myself, but I'm aware of the consequences.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Poyplemonkeys

[nippy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1279905841' post='2386058']
Your claims that we were no cordial and demanded peace are an outright lie, most likely a lie of ignorance. We spent a very happy hour+ with babyjesus on this issue and came to an agreement for peace. When the agreement was met, Beefspari renegged on the deal.
[/quote]

You're one to talk about lying, Schat. You attempted to help the USSR nation circumvent the peace terms by writing a story yourself. Unfortunate for him, he was dumb enough to leave in this little message at the top of the story he blindly copied and pasted:

[quote][name omitted],We have written the essay that GOONS wants for you. I am including it below. Post it at GOONS forum in the mercy board thread that you have. After it is posted, all attacks should stop. Save the pictures and upload them to your own photobucket, just in case GOONS won't accept them if they know we did it. Do not mention that we wrote it for you.[/quote]

After this, you TELL us to accept it anyway? You're not really that dense...I can't believe you are.

[magicninja]

Ok since it's out in the open I want to see if I understand the situation here.

GOONs raids microalliance.
Member of Microalliance applies to CoJ
GOONs asks that the Member complete their Mercy board thing
GOONs isn't satisfied with results so doesn't grant peace.
CoJ and pals Nemesis demand peace

If the above is correct I say CoJ needs only to wait until the wars expire and then the said nation is free. UNLESS, GOONS considers the microalliance fighting back to have escalated from a raid to an alliance wide war in which case the member is a fugitive from said war and should have to comply with any prerequisites to peace. However, I see no "official" war has been declared so I would still call it a raid and expiration of wars should be enough.

[Schattenmann]

It's also pretty difficult for an alliance A to determine if an alliance B is at war or not when alliance B make up its definitions of "war" and "alliance" at whim to suit every individual situation.

[Sardonic]

Ah, my good Schattenmann, I was wondering when you would show up here.

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1279905461' post='2386047']
they claim that the micro is a real alliance and now they're in an alliance war.
[/quote]
They are a group of rogues, not an alliance, a group of rogues which entered into a war with us. You're right though, "Alliance War" gives them too much credit, but we consider it the same sort of thing.
[quote]
When each member of the micro was accepted, we odered the victim to send a peace offer, stop all defensive attacks, and then CoJ sent a letter to all nations at war with the victim explaining that he had joined CJ and we'd appreciate their acceptance of the peace offer. GOONS is super cool so they ignored the PMs.
[/quote]
When will people learn that our members are not to be bossed around by outsiders. They take orders from us, not you.
[quote]

Since GOONS wasn't willing to act according to worldwide standards and just call it even when the micro began joining CoJ and give them peace, CoJ, GOONS, and the micro came into an agreement for peace. GOONS issued peace terms: write an essay and draw two pictures. CoJ wrote the essay and made the pictures, and instructed the leader of the micro--who was by that time a member of CoJ--to post the essay and not allude to the fact that we wrote it. I told him not to say we wrote it becaus eI know how petty and unreasonable GOONS is. Unfortunately, he c/p'ed that part, so GOONS rejected the essay. [i]If GOONS had asked for money or tech and CoJ nations sent it, they would not have cancelled the aid offers--alliance pay off their friends' terms all the damned time.[/i] The terms were filled, but GOONS needs a constant stream of rageporn to keep their juices flowing. We explained to them very logically that the authorship of the essay wasn't even an issue; the leader they were negotiating with was a member of CoJ, so whether he wrote it or we wrote it, it still came from CoJ. Instead of using their brains, they then said that a a third person still flying the micro AA had to write one, then. Utter tripe.
[/quote]
Sorry, but you tried to make a mockery of the mercy board. The essay and pictures must come from the aggreived party, not some third party. Maybe they will successfully complete them this time.
[quote]
[b][color="#FF0000"]*[/color][/b]While all this was going on, GOONS aided a nuke rogue at war with CoJ.
[/quote]
You know as well as I do that it was the completion of a tech deal, which was an accident. We would reimburse you immediatley, had you not used up any shred of goodwill you had with us.
[quote]
So suck it up and stop acting you're the victims of some international conspiracy of moralists. You're victims of your own clumsiness and buffoonery.
[/quote]
Good use of buffoonery. But we have no illusions about what happened here.
[quote]
For bonus points, while screaming their nerdrage to the high heavens about CoJ's actions and claiming that we need to be more diplomatic, Sardonic took it upon himself to edit the thread wherein we're negotiating peace to include this:
[/quote]
I stand by my edit.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Sardonic

[nippy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1279906040' post='2386066']
Thank you for the visual, now everyone can see how irrational Beefspari is and how circular and masturbatory your "mercy" policy is.

The logs posted by Nippy are day two of negotiations. They occurred after USSR/CoJ fulfilled our end of the bargain and were then met with GOONS changing their minds and demanding more.

Would you do me another favor and also post the logs where Sardonic tells Nemesis that MK would never choose Nemesis over GOONS (which would of course involve GOONS forcing MK to pick one ally over the other in the first place)?
[/quote]

Everyone already knew our 'mercy' policy. Just in case you missed the [b]stickied thread[/b] in that section of our forum, here it is again for your reading pleasure:

[quote]
If you're a basic unaligned player or in an alliance with 14 or less users, you will be asking for peace. Post a new thread in this board titled "REQUEST FOR PEACE" Do not post in this thread, do not post in another thread, do not have someone post on your behalf. If you do, your request will be ignored. If you're representing your entire alliance and want peace for all of them, mention this in your post. You must be in charge of the alliance to do this. If your entire alliance is granted peace, we will suspend raids for only one month, during which time you can build or seek protection. If after that month you're still in our range, raids may resume. The following happens when you ask for peace:

1) During the 24 hour cease fire period, the adjudicator (that's me) or another governor will present you with the terms of peace. This may consist of anything the governor decides, but will NOT consist of in-game OR out of game requirements such as money. If I personally am offering you the terms, I will give you at least two options to pick from.

2) You have the allotted 24 hour cease fire period to respond to the terms and complete them. If you fail to do so, war will resume. If you meet the requirements, you'll be offered peace and may go about your business (and will not be attacked again as long as we can remember not to). If you half-$@! it, it'll be put up to a vote, which will probably result in people laughing at you and then saying no.[/quote]

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1279906040' post='2386066']
The logs posted by Nippy are day two of negotiations. They occurred after USSR/CoJ fulfilled our end of the bargain and were then met with GOONS changing their minds and demanding more.
[/quote]
No, you left out the part where you falsified the mercy terms and instructed USSR to lie and say they made it, and then tried to lawyer your way out of the fact that you're a liar.

Your big post is just "blah blah smear GOONS blah blah" so I didn't read it. I will touch on the things you felt were important to highlight though:

The so-called nuke rogue that we're "aiding" was part of a tech deal. If you really think a 6k NS nation who sent 50t in what was OBVIOUSLY A TECH DEAL (he now has less than 5t) is aiding a nation at war, you're really stretching things to try and fulfill this vendetta of yours against GOONS. And since I said I'd look into it for you, and I did, the reason the tech was delayed was because Smacky was sanctioned before. Also, you left out the part where I [b]offered to compensate you for it[/b] despite all those facts, and you ignored it.

The edit of your post isn't my fault. I only edit the posts to include the title changes of "NEGOTIATING" and "DENIED" and such. Someone else added the crybaby thing in an earlier edit. And it's my understanding that it was edited in in response to your attempt to pick up a random comment from our forums and present it as our wildly inappropriate terms and try yet another anti-GOONS smear campaign using falsified information.

Man, you really lie a lot.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='23 July 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1279906408' post='2386081']
It's also pretty difficult for an alliance A to determine if an alliance B is at war or not when alliance B make up its definitions of "war" and "alliance" at whim to suit every individual situation.
[/quote]
Schatt, this is really unbecoming man. I really have no stake in any of this but you and I know well enough that accepting nations previously at war is a no-no. If it's an alliance war, they need to be cleared by the alliance they are fleeing. This is standard. If it's a raid, then they need to be cleared by the nation raiding them. This is also standard. Regardless of the reason for war, it doesn't go away when they apply to your membership. This is ridiculous.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' date='23 July 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1279906191' post='2386074']
I'm sorry, you don't get to have one of your nations declare war on an alliance, then claim it's only a war when said alliance retaliates. The tech raid committed in the first instance was sanctioned by GOONS government, whether explicitly or through the regulations that government set, so there is simply no room for any complaint when the person tech raided takes the fight to GOONS.

A tech raid is a war. A GOONS member launched a sanctioned war against another alliance.

I have no problem with tech raiding, and have partaken myself, but I'm aware of the consequences.
[/quote]
Stop confusing the issue, it doesn't matter who considered it a war first as both parties did eventually anyway. The point is what happens when people try to escape the war.

[AndrewHG]

Quit complaining and stop trying to codify piracy.