Sparta Declares War on Self; Allies Baffled

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='KCToker' date='22 July 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1279776166' post='2384112']
I think the past has shown us that treaties aren't as binding as we would like them to be
[/quote]

lol, naturally, it's not like something like this would ever happen, nobody holds to the letter of the treaty, and there is always plenty of room for debate, but I just wanted to experiment with this using ONLY the terms and obligations guaranteed in treaty. If we held to our word, precisely as written and guaranteed by the legitimate governments of our alliances, could we avoid this bizzare cataclysm that I've outlined above?

[Dementual]

[quote name='Ardus' date='21 July 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1279775742' post='2384100']
Treaties guarantee assistance in the event of attack from a foreign power. [b]I've yet to see a treaty that mandated action in the event of a civil war.[/b] Nonetheless, good allies would attempt to resolve the situation and others would simply wash their hands of you.
[/quote]
I'd say this is more because of CN nature. If an alliance is having a civil war, it generally just results in a splintering rather than actual infighting. If, for some reason, there was ever a civil war where an alliance legitimately declared war on its own nations (and wasn't being thrown out of relevancy by the laughing OWF), I'd imagine that "in the event of a civil war" would be included somewhere in ODP/MDP clauses of the future.

[KCToker]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='21 July 2010 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1279776518' post='2384121']
lol, naturally, it's not like something like this would ever happen, nobody holds to the letter of the treaty, and there is always plenty of room for debate, but I just wanted to experiment with this using ONLY the terms and obligations guaranteed in treaty. If we held to our word, precisely as written and guaranteed by the legitimate governments of our alliances, could we avoid this bizzare cataclysm that I've outlined above?
[/quote]
After skimming through R&R's treaties, there's nothing in the letter of the treaty stating only outside attacks count, I'd imagine almost all other treaties are the same. So theoretically, if everyone held to the [i]exact[/i] wording of their treaties, I don't think there is any way of avoiding this.

...

/me goes to convince R&R Trium to declare war on R&R.

[Omniscient1]

Back when I was a noob, I was in an alliance protected by IAA. We had a civil war. IAA just let us fight it out.

Osravan is also immoral.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Omniscient1

[Chaoshawk]

I am baffled Olaf did not go through with this.

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='22 July 2010 - 01:37 AM' timestamp='1279777047' post='2384133']
Osraven is also immoral.
[/quote]

Fixed that for you.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='KCToker' date='22 July 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1279776873' post='2384129']
After skimming through R&R's treaties, there's nothing in the letter of the treaty stating only outside attacks count, I'd imagine almost all other treaties are the same. So theoretically, if everyone held to the [i]exact[/i] wording of their treaties, I don't think there is any way of avoiding this.

...

/me goes to convince R&R Trium to declare war on R&R.
[/quote]

DOOO IIIIIT!!!!

I mean, in no way is this at all apocalyptic in the extreme case of forcing alliances to declare war on themselves as a part of honouring the MADP etc. with Sparta. If you declared war on yourself in defense of yourself etc. you could always just come to an immediate armistice with yourself and then declare a white peace (or milk yourself for all the reps you can, that's entirely up to you), in that case it's relatively harmless... but if you had to DoW on yourself as part of mandatory defense of Sparta, after attacking Sparta as part of the mandatory aggression clause, I think most treaties are worded in such a way that you must provide all necessary military support to the treaty holders, which means you wouldn't be able to get out of a war with yourself unless Sparta also agreed to the peace, or declared that the terms had been fulfilled.

In which case I can keep us all in a perpetual war against ourselves

Edited July 22, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[KCToker]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='21 July 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1279777431' post='2384140']
DOOO IIIIIT!!!!

I mean, in no way is this at all apocalyptic in the extreme case of forcing alliances to declare war on themselves as a part of honouring the MADP etc. with Sparta. If you declared war on yourself in defense of yourself etc. you could always just come to an immediate armistice with yourself and then declare a white peace (or milk yourself for all the reps you can, that's entirely up to you), in that case it's relatively harmless... but if you had to DoW on yourself as part of mandatory defense of Sparta, after attacking Sparta as part of the mandatory aggression clause, I think most treaties are worded in such a way that you must provide all necessary military support to the treaty holders, which means you wouldn't be able to get out of a war with yourself unless Sparta also agreed to the peace, or declared that the terms had been fulfilled.

In which case I can keep us all in a perpetual war against ourselves
[/quote]
Certainly makes the game more interesting

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Chaoshawk' date='22 July 2010 - 06:41 AM' timestamp='1279777253' post='2384137']
I am baffled Olaf did not go through with this.



Fixed that for you.
[/quote]


ahh yes thank you. Either way the point still stands

[Olaf Styke]

I am thoroughly committed to ruining this game for everyone.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='KCToker' date='21 July 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1279776873' post='2384129']

/me goes to convince R&R Trium to declare war on R&R.
[/quote]
I would be pretty amused if i ever saw an RvsR thread. ;-P

[Banksy]

[quote name='Axolotlia' date='22 July 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1279773793' post='2384031']
Can you feel the love tonight? I sure can
[/quote]
Olaf deserves no love. His policies with regards to mass embassy topic creation are such that I cannot hope to ever empathise with him :colbert:

EDIT:

[quote name='Seth Muscarella' date='22 July 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1279779694' post='2384185']
I would be pretty amused if i ever saw an RvsR thread. ;-P
[/quote]
R&R v RnR imho

Edited July 22, 2010 by Banksy

[commander thrawn]

If Sparta was in a civil war I would support Tulak.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='22 July 2010 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1279780913' post='2384203']
If Sparta was in a civil war I would support Tulak.
[/quote]

Because you said that, I'm going to sack him.

[LucasSnow]

As ridiculous as some of Olaf's musings are he does bring up an overlooked point here.

If one were to follow said treaty agreements word for word such a scenario has a chance to actually play out. It may be time for a quick rewrite of some treaties just for good measure? I'm mean I'm sure no one would actually try to push it to this extreme but there is nothing wrong with being punctual.

Edited July 22, 2010 by LucasSnow

[Olaf Styke]

The moral of the story is: Thank god none of us are men of our words.

[itida]

Olaf, you had my support in the civil war right uptil there.....

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='21 July 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1279775721' post='2384098']
I'm a god.
[/quote]


Naw dude, that ain't you.

[Skippy]

The "attacking your allies, then having to support you in doing so" off treaties doesn't work, unless you don't have a Non aggression clause in your treaty

In this case, attacking yourself, the non aggression clause plays an effect too. Get rid of that from all your treaties, and it might get interesting

[Caleb279]

[quote name='James Dahl' date='21 July 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1279774675' post='2384057']
RIA would understand it's treaty obligations and would dutifully declare war on itself in turn, sparking the Third RIA-RIA war.
[/quote]
Oh my god, genius. Then by chain reaction every alliance declares civil war and oh my, we have CN2

[President S O]

Attack both sides until they reunite.

[Bob Janova]

Any alliance that was interested in legalities would support the legitimate government against the 'rogues', but I don't think that an internal 'war' would generally be considered the alliance 'coming under attack' for the purposes of a treaty, unless the treaty explicitly covers assistance with rogues (some do).

What tends to happen in cases of coups or arguments about who is in charge is that allies roll with who they like best, who is more likely to govern in their interests etc. For an example which is hopefully old enough that it doesn't turn into an IC argument, look at the Ivan/Moo thing with NPO back in July 2007 ... most of their allies backed one side, and a prominent one backed the other, despite presumably being given the same facts on the matter, largely because of their interests relating to the internal politics of the Initiative.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='22 July 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1279775721' post='2384098']
TECHNICALLY, by the terms of the treaty (MADP or MDoAP in this case), you MUST defend Sparta, you have guaranteed that protection via contract, so without completely breaching the terms of that treaty, you have to become involved.
[/quote]
Actually no. Most treaties are written to guarantee protection against outside attack.

If you've got the whole "an attack on X is an attack on Y" wording though you've got a problem. One of the many reasons why that wording is crazy.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='22 July 2010 - 08:13 AM' timestamp='1279800802' post='2384361']
What tends to happen in cases of coups or arguments about who is in charge is that allies roll with who they like best, who is more likely to govern in their interests etc. For an example which is hopefully old enough that it doesn't turn into an IC argument, look at the Ivan/Moo thing with NPO back in July 2007 ... most of their allies backed one side, and a prominent one backed the other, despite presumably being given the same facts on the matter, largely because of their interests relating to the internal politics of the Initiative.
[/quote]
Really Bob? I was just about to make a joke about how Sponge would back the true leader and the lower gov and the allies would back the one they could manipulate.

The early bird gets the worm I suppose.

Edited July 22, 2010 by flak attack

[Bob Janova]

Hehe sorry it's the most obvious example of this type of thing that isn't way too recent to talk about in the OOC forum

[Uralica]

I think if a Spartan civil war happened, TOOL would either:

a. see which side Brigade (closest TOOL treaty to Sparta) went with, because we love us some Brig
b. If Brig did nothing, we'd see what LOSS did.
c. If neither did anything, we'd get out the

Edited July 22, 2010 by Uralica

[Grumpdogg]

Don't have a civil war, or all the innocent ghosts might get hurt