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Sparta Declares War on Self; Allies Baffled


Olaf Styke

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[quote][12:01:45 AM] OsRavan: all 100 percent good heh
[12:03:30 AM] OsRavan: all good now
[12:03:50 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: $%&@ you Os
[12:04:02 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: I thought I was gonna get to DoW BRIG, and actually do something for a change.
[12:04:08 AM] OsRavan: lol
[12:04:14 AM] OsRavan: dont you have a MADP with them lmao?
[12:04:26 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: Yes, they'd have to declare war on themselves.
[12:04:30 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: It would have been enormous fun.
[12:04:36 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: And you ruined it, as ususal.
[12:04:37 AM] OsRavan: that would be kinda cool
[12:04:46 AM] OsRavan: declare war on yourself to activate your mdp
[12:04:56 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: Are you crazy!?!
[12:05:00 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: Sparta can't take on Sparta.
[12:05:04 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: We'll be massacred.
[12:06:11 AM] OsRavan: but you will have your good friends ODN to help!
[12:06:16 AM] OsRavan: we wont let sparta roll you!
[12:06:39 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: Don't you play me for a fool, I know you've got a treaty with them.
[12:07:03 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: You're just playing nice, cozying up so you can strike when we least expect it,
[12:07:05 AM] OsRavan: we are optional though. I'll let them know we are backing you, not sparta
[12:07:43 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: Yes but WE'RE attacking, it's oA, but it's MD.
[12:07:49 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: You have to defend them if we attack.
[12:07:56 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: >: |
[12:07:59 AM] OsRavan: hmm good point
[12:08:01 AM] OsRavan: then you know what
[12:08:02 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: Try to trick me, will you.
[12:08:04 AM] OsRavan: im going to kill you!
[12:08:08 AM] OsRavan: and defend sparta
[12:08:09 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
[12:08:16 AM] Johann Olaf Styke: I KNEW IT![/quote]

Admittedly that whole thing was just me and Os being retards as usual, but it brings up a curious thought experiment: If for some conceivable reason, however ridiculous, an alliance declared war on itself (i.e. some kind of bizzare civil war where both sides refuse to give up the right to the original AA, claiming to be the legitimate Sparta), how would that alliance's allies respond? I'm sure in this case Tums and Shinpah would tell me I'm being a retard and they'll have no part in it, and Xiphosis and Delta would probably jump in the fray for kicks, but without thinking in terms of pure lulz, how could an alliance react within the bounds of treaty obligation?

If I, as King of Sparta, declared war on Sparta on behalf of Sparta--and it was clear this wasn't a joke, and you, as a treaty partner (lets say MADP for kicks), were obliged to operate within the confines of the treaty system, what would you do?

I'm curious to see if you can wriggle your way out of this little experiment without violating the terms of the treaty. :P

Edit: Also relevant because of the current conflict between myself and Wilhelm, the idea of a civil war in Sparta came up, with Sparta split down the middle between me and Wil. Doubtless no end of amusement.

Edited by Olaf Styke
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[quote name='Banksy' date='21 July 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1279773425' post='2384022']
Normally I would say the allies should stay the $%&@ out.

In Sparta's case, they had better save me some stagger slots on you.
[/quote]

Everyone hates you, Banksy, go away. <_<

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[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='21 July 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1279773469' post='2384026']
Everyone hates you, Banksy, go away. <_<
[/quote]

Can you feel the love tonight? I sure can :awesome:

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If it came to actual wars, then I guess each ally would have to choose which side they view to be the "legitimate" government, and then support, morally (the safe way) or militarily (the real way :P)

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You would be shanghaied and be made to watch gerbil cartoons for a week 24x7 so you would get some idea of the headaches you case by such a silly action.

In case there was a real civil war scenario. Most allies would just sit it out militarily while attempting frenetic counseling and diplomacy to help Sparta heal itself, even if it made them uncomfortable about meddling in what was clearly an internal matter for Sparta.

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[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='21 July 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1279773941' post='2384039']
You would be shanghaied and be made to watch gerbil cartoons for a week 24x7 so you would get some idea of the headaches you case by such a silly action.[/quote]

Have you no sense of decency?!

Edited by Olaf Styke
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This kind of thing has happened, without the shooting part. Allies generally tend to either watch and wait or pick a side and run with it.

Yes I know that is a boring answer. What you're looking for is that allies will only consider a treaty activated by what they recognize as said ally's legitimate government.

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[quote name='Sargun' date='21 July 2010 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1279774099' post='2384044']
All of Sparta would be banned for attacking members of their own AA. :awesome: Problem solved
[/quote]

lol, true, but that assumes that after declaring war on OWF etc. wars are declared in game. There need not be actual nation-level DoWs for the treaties to be activated, an official DoW by the head of one alliance against another should be adequate to activate treaties.

[quote]This kind of thing has happened, without the shooting part. Allies generally tend to either watch and wait or pick a side and run with it.

Yes I know that is a boring answer. What you're looking for is that allies will only consider a treaty activated by what they recognize as said ally's legitimate government.[/quote]

Quite true, but does that mean, if an alliance's entire government isn't behind any given action, it's invalid? Technically all that needs to happen for our alliance to pass legislature or make a binding decision on behalf of all of Sparta is for me and Wilhelm (the Kings) to sign off on it.

Lets take this out of the context of a government split and say that me and Wilhelm and the four Ephors declare war on Sparta as the government of Sparta, and the membership opposes us. Technically, since we're a Dyarchy, all power and legitimacy lies with the Kings, according to the constitution of the alliance, and each member has sworn an oath to that constitution and the alliance leaders. Being 6 people, but the legitimate government of Sparta, would you support the 6 of us, or the other 343 Spartans if you had a treaty with our alliance?

Edited by Olaf Styke
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[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='21 July 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1279774774' post='2384062']
lol, true, but that assumes that after declaring war on OWF etc. wars are declared in game. There need not be actual nation-level DoWs for the treaties to be activated, an official DoW by the head of one alliance against another should be adequate to activate treaties.



Quite true, but does that mean, if an alliance's entire government isn't behind any given action, it's invalid? Technically all that needs to happen for our alliance to pass legislature or make a binding decision on behalf of all of Sparta is for me and Wilhelm (the Kings) to sign off on it.

Lets take this out of the context of a government split and say that me and Wilhelm and the four Ephors declare war on Sparta as the government of Sparta, and the membership opposes us. Technically, since we're a Dyarchy, all power and legitimacy lies with the Kings, according to the constitution of the alliance, and each member has sworn an oath to that constitution and the alliance leaders. Being 6 people, but the legitimate government of Sparta, would you support the 6 of us, or the other 343 Spartans if you had a treaty with our alliance?
[/quote]
It'd come down to each ally to determine who they would support. My guess would be that more democratic alliances would support the membership, whereas less democratic alliances would support the government.

Of course, context is everything. Each situation is different.

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[quote name='KCToker' date='22 July 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1279775266' post='2384081']
It'd come down to each ally to determine who they would support. My guess would be that more democratic alliances would support the membership, whereas less democratic alliances would support the government.

Of course, context is everything. Each situation is different.
[/quote]

Very true, very true, it would more than likely end in a complete abstention by all our allies, or alliances picking and choosing weather the government or the people constitute 'Sparta' (at least more than their counterparts), it's an issue of legitimacy. But here is what everyone else has been overlooking:

TECHNICALLY, by the terms of the treaty (MADP or MDoAP in this case), you MUST defend Sparta, you have guaranteed that protection via contract, so without completely breaching the terms of that treaty, you have to become involved. The problem is, who can you claim is the legitimate Sparta, the one whom you are obliged to Defend--and in the case of MDAP--which you obligated to attack as a part of mutual aggression.

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[quote name='KCToker' date='22 July 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1279775266' post='2384081']
It'd come down to each ally to determine who they would support. My guess would be that more democratic alliances would support the membership, whereas less democratic alliances would support the government.

Of course, context is everything. Each situation is different.
[/quote]

Very true, very true, it would more than likely end in a complete abstention by all our allies, or alliances picking and choosing weather the government or the people constitute 'Sparta' (at least more than their counterparts), it's an issue of legitimacy. But here is what everyone else has been overlooking:

TECHNICALLY, by the terms of the treaty (MADP or MDoAP in this case), you MUST defend Sparta, you have guaranteed that protection via contract, so without completely breaching the terms of that treaty, you have to become involved. The problem is, who can you claim is the legitimate Sparta, the one whom you are obliged to Defend--and in the case of MDAP--which you obligated to attack as a part of mutual aggression.

Edit: AND, if you are obligated to attack by treaty, but aren't able to forward a convincing argument why one Sparta is the legitimate treaty holder, and the other illegitimate, Sparta's treaty partners with MDoAPs etc. will be forced to defend Sparta and declare war on your alliance... which, since your alliance is one of them, means it has to declare war on it's self.

:P

Which begins ANOTHER chain of allies forced to declare war on you, and then themselves by obligation, which begins ANOTHER chain...

I could destroy all of CN RIGHT NOW by declaring war on Sparta, everyone would self-destruct...

:o I'm a god.

Edited by Olaf Styke
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Treaties guarantee assistance in the event of attack from a foreign power. I've yet to see a treaty that mandated action in the event of a civil war. Nonetheless, good allies would attempt to resolve the situation and others would simply wash their hands of you.

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If we're going to attack Sparta, we need to destroy the worst Spartan of all. Some dork named CSF needs to be nuked OVER 9000 times, because he is the most god-awful person; I can't stand him. Nuke Frankmerica, it's a s#%+hole that needs to be nuked OVER 9000 times.

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[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='21 July 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1279775693' post='2384096']
Very true, very true, it would more than likely end in a complete abstention by all our allies, or alliances picking and choosing weather the government or the people constitute 'Sparta' (at least more than their counterparts), it's an issue of legitimacy. But here is what everyone else has been overlooking:

TECHNICALLY, by the terms of the treaty (MADP or MDoAP in this case), you MUST defend Sparta, you have guaranteed that protection via contract, so without completely breaching the terms of that treaty, you have to become involved. The problem is, who can you claim is the legitimate Sparta, the one whom you are obliged to Defend--and in the case of MDAP--which you obligated to attack as a part of mutual aggression.
[/quote]
I think the past has shown us that treaties aren't as binding as we would like them to be <_<

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[quote name='James Dahl' date='21 July 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1279774675' post='2384057']
RIA would understand it's treaty obligations and would dutifully declare war on itself in turn, sparking the Third RIA-RIA war.
[/quote]

you stole my line, only i thought(before i clicked the thread just reading the title) this was a real joke war and was going to say that we understand and that we would help only our RIA viceroy Cct wouldn't let us.

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