A Joint Announcement by the Orange Defense Network and Sparta

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='03 May 2010 - 10:08 PM' timestamp='1272938868' post='2285769']
Don't worry, it was elementary my dear Watson.




I'm here now. Explain to me why you have changed.
[/quote]
Oh, I figured your deduction skills were intact, sorry, I spoke too soon.

What I mean: Find someone from Sparta Gov on IRC, or register on our forums and talk to us there. If you really wanted to see a redeemed Sparta, I'm sure you would. You don't, though, do you?

[url="http://www.cnsparta.com/forums/index.php?&"]Here they are for you. [/shameless plug][/url]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='03 May 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1272938939' post='2285771']
[color="#0000FF"]So because you did it in the past it is irrelevant because you might not do it again? I am sorry, but your alliance was founded by members bailing on OIN during GWIII, and then you survived by playing it safe until Polar allied with you. Then you bail on Polar in noCB, and Pacifica in Karma. I don't know about you, but I think I see a pattern, and as far as I am concerned the pattern is valid until it is broken.

With your history why should ODN or CnG count on your support when the going gets rough? Tell me. And please do so with something other than "you're irrelevant."[/color]
[/quote]
See, this isn't about what we will do with the treaty, this is about how the treaty exists, so anyone who attacks ODN knows that Sparta will ditch them at a moments notice. Thank you for pointing it out, but I think the OP did the job well enough on it's own.

Who are you to decide who ODN/C&G treaties with? Who are you to caution them in their FA course?

Edited May 4, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='03 May 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1272938939' post='2285771']
[color="#0000FF"]So because you did it in the past it is irrelevant because you might not do it again? I am sorry, but your alliance was founded by members bailing on OIN during GWIII, and then you survived by playing it safe until Polar allied with you. Then you bail on Polar in noCB, and Pacifica in Karma. I don't know about you, but I think I see a pattern, and as far as I am concerned the pattern is valid until it is broken.

With your history why should ODN or CnG count on your support when the going gets rough? Tell me. And please do so with something other than "you're irrelevant."[/color]
[/quote]

Why should RIA count on your support as a member when you have been known to leave an alliance to do your own thing numerous times?

RV, for once show some sense in these rants of yours...

Sparta has had 2-3 purges in the past several months, a more recent one causing their strongest nation to be ejected. They have had several reforms internally and they have proven in the past war that they are good allies willing to help out their friends when in need. Whether you believe any of this or not is irrelevant because you will still attack anyone you can gain peanut gallery support against. That's all you ever do is pick targets you think you can get a following against.

You talk as if you know anything about them but you couldn't be farther from the truth. You came in this treaty announcement denouncing parts of their history, why should they have to treat that disrespect with a smile on their faces? For someone claiming to be intelligent you certainly show little of it with these attacks that never go anywhere.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1272939410' post='2285788']
Who are you to decide who ODN/C&G treaties with? Who are you to caution them in their FA course?
[/quote]
Just a footnote in history, but he's the guy who warned NPO to not break ties with Polaris.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1272939498' post='2285792']
Just a footnote in history, but he's the guy who warned NPO to not break ties with Polaris.
[/quote]
Good to know, still don't see what that has to do with Sparta/ODN though.

Thanks for trying to make him look credible, though, you are one in a million.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='03 May 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1272939436' post='2285790']
Why should RIA count on your support as a member when you have been known to leave an alliance to do your own thing numerous times?

RV, for once show some sense in these rants of yours...

Sparta has had 2-3 purges in the past several months, a more recent one causing their strongest nation to be ejected. They have had several reforms internally and they have proven in the past war that they are good allies willing to help out their friends when in need. Whether you believe any of this or not is irrelevant because you will still attack anyone you can gain peanut gallery support against. That's all you ever do is pick targets you think you can get a following against.

You talk as if you know anything about them but you couldn't be farther from the truth. You came in this treaty announcement denouncing parts of their history, why should they have to treat that disrespect with a smile on their faces? For someone claiming to be intelligent you certainly show little of it with these attacks that never go anywhere.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I may be a controversial figure, but I have never left an alliance while at war. In fact, I have followed my friends into war even when I had no obligations to do so. Note the actions of FAIL in the last war in support of the NSO. So do understand, I know I am a reliable friend. That is not true for Sparta.

Also, purges mean nothing. Internal affairs mean nothing. It may get rid of ghosts and dead weight members but it does little to change the character of an alliance. And Sparta's character is its own survival. If that means ditching CnG when they need Sparta the most, so be it.

Also, I do know quite a bit about Sparta. As I you, I have a history with them. I also am a very perceptive man, and I have been watching them for years. I know Sparta better than it knows itself.[/color]

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='03 May 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1272939436' post='2285790']
Sparta has had 2-3 purges in the past several months, a more recent one causing their strongest nation to be ejected. They have had several reforms internally and they have proven in the past war that they are good allies willing to help out their friends when in need.
[/quote]

Sparta should probably just fire their whole PR department and hire Lonewolfe to do their talking for them because at least he's always been respectful, rational, and intelligent, even when dealing with me during the war, and I'm just a pain in the $@!. Why Olaf or anyone else in Sparta couldn't have just outlined what Lonewolfe just said is beyond me. Okay, purges, reforms, changes in gov, sounds good. Hopefully it works out for Sparta

[Haflinger]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1272939682' post='2285797']
Good to know, still don't see what that has to do with Sparta/ODN though.

Thanks for trying to make him look credible, though, you are one in a million.
[/quote]
You evidently mistake my intentions. It's a common failing.

However, instead of worrying about his credibility, you probably should respond to his statements rather than attacking his character. [i]Ad hominem[/i] remarks - well, there's a reason that it's called a logical fallacy.

(Hint: it's because [i]ad hominem[/i] fails to prove your argument.)

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1272939976' post='2285810']
You evidently mistake my intentions. It's a common failing.

However, instead of worrying about his credibility, you probably should respond to his statements rather than attacking his character. [i]Ad hominem[/i] remarks - well, there's a reason that it's called a logical fallacy.

(Hint: it's because [i]ad hominem[/i] fails to prove your argument.)
[/quote]
I'm not attacking his character, I'm attacking his argument.

Hint: It's in the wrong place.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='03 May 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1272939830' post='2285803']
[color="#0000FF"]I may be a controversial figure, but I have never left an alliance while at war. In fact, I have followed my friends into war even when I had no obligations to do so. Note the actions of FAIL in the last war in support of the NSO. So do understand, I know I am a reliable friend. That is not true for Sparta.

Also, purges mean nothing. Internal affairs mean nothing. It may get rid of ghosts and dead weight members but it does little to change the character of an alliance. And Sparta's character is its own survival. If that means ditching CnG when they need Sparta the most, so be it.

Also, I do know quite a bit about Sparta. As I you, I have a history with them. I also am a very perceptive man, and I have been watching them for years. I know Sparta better than it knows itself.[/color]
[/quote]

If you wish people to take you seriously you would not act like you're above them. But I have a feeling you know this and just think it's funny to cause controversy. For someone who pretends to understand and know so much, what have you accomplished? Do you have a resume that can actually lead credence to your posts?

All I have ever seen is what can be amounted to a lump sum of personal attacks against people that I know are good, you attack them here but don't get to know who they are through other means.

How can you say purges and internal affairs mean nothing? Those members lost and the changes internally can change how an alliance operates. How it can function militarily, and also how united they are.

Sparta has shown immense respect towards people and alliances that have deserved it or have come to them with respect.

I'm curious, but do you believe that when someone does something you disagree with, that they are then wrong?

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1272940077' post='2285814']
I'm not attacking his character, I'm attacking his argument.

Hint: It's in the wrong place.
[/quote]

That's not really disproving it either.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1272939976' post='2285810']
You evidently mistake my intentions. It's a common failing.

However, instead of worrying about his credibility, you probably should respond to his statements rather than attacking his character. [i]Ad hominem[/i] remarks - well, there's a reason that it's called a logical fallacy.

(Hint: it's because [i]ad hominem[/i] fails to prove your argument.)
[/quote]

Is this where I say '[i]Tu Quoque[/i]'?

An eye for an eye, a fallacy for a fallacy.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='03 May 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1272940190' post='2285820']
That's not really disproving it either.
[/quote]
That's not really making a difference. If he wants to argue about this he can come to our forums, as I have stated numerous times, and argue it there.

All I see is mud being thrown around, nothing else.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='03 May 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1272940333' post='2285826']
Is this where I say '[i]Tu Quoque[/i]'?

An eye for an eye, a fallacy for a fallacy.
[/quote]
You can't have a fallacious argument when you ... don't have an argument.

Man, you kids.

(Note: this post does contain an argument. The one you replied to doesn't. If you can't spot the difference between the two, you probably need some basic lessons in logic.)

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1272940623' post='2285839']
You can't have a fallacious argument when you ... don't have an argument.

Man, you kids.

(Note: this post does contain an argument. The one you replied to doesn't. If you can't spot the difference between the two, you probably need some basic lessons in logic.)
[/quote]
[i]
Tu Quoque.[/i]

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1272929598' post='2285483']
A lot of people could achieve that with assistance from the Spartan Battle Planning Channel, which always enables Sparta to have ties to both sides in every major war and cut them not long before the war with the side that has less NS.
[/quote]
Something that was clearly shown in the last war, right? I mean, with all those treaties Sparta cancelled before that one TOP should have found it obvious that they were going to lose. Wait, there wasn't one cancellation? And Sparta was ready to roll when we were pretty sure we were going to lose?

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1272940623' post='2285839']
You can't have a fallacious argument when you ... don't have an argument.

Man, you kids.

(Note: this post does contain an argument. The one you replied to doesn't. If you can't spot the difference between the two, you probably need some basic lessons in logic.)
[/quote]
I believe you misunderstand the meaning of the word argument.


To reply to your previous post, though, I have responded to his statements, by telling him that if he really cares so much he should make an honest effort to actually learn about what we have done, instead of stating that we have done nothing. I don't see how that's [i]ad hominem[/i].

Sure there may be some [i]ad hominem[/i] fluff, but it's not my central point, just the one you guys are hinging on to try and mar my credibility.

[i]I do expect a "What credibility?" comeback to this, btw. You aren't original, whoever you are. [/i]

[Haflinger]

[quote name='flak attack' date='03 May 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1272940765' post='2285846']
Something that was clearly shown in the last war, right? I mean, with all those treaties Sparta cancelled before that one TOP should have found it obvious that they were going to lose. Wait, there wasn't one cancellation? And Sparta was ready to roll when we were pretty sure we were going to lose?
[/quote]
If you guys thought C&G was going to get rolled, you were really pretty dumb all along. Not that you wouldn't have company in that area. A whole lot of company.

Let me put it this way. Once upon a time, there was a war where C&G did in fact get rolled. Not long before the war, Sparta had an MADP with an alliance that happened to be on your side.

Have you already forgotten what they did then?

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1272941193' post='2285861']
If you guys thought C&G was going to get rolled, you were really pretty dumb all along. Not that you wouldn't have company in that area. A whole lot of company.

Let me put it this way. Once upon a time, there was a war where C&G did in fact get rolled. Not long before the war, Sparta had an MADP with an alliance that happened to be on your side.

Have you already forgotten what they did then?
[/quote]

OH! You called us stupid! [i]Ad Hominem[/i]! [i]Ad Hominem[/i]! [i]Tu Quoque![/i]

Man, you really suck at this whole Logical Fallacy thing.

OH NO! I SAID YOU SUCK! [i]Ad Hominem, Ad Hominem![/i]

Edited May 4, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1272941193' post='2285861']
If you guys thought C&G was going to get rolled, you were really pretty dumb all along. Not that you wouldn't have company in that area. A whole lot of company.

Let me put it this way. Once upon a time, there was a war where C&G did in fact get rolled. Not long before the war, Sparta had an MADP with an alliance that happened to be on your side.

Have you already forgotten what they did then?
[/quote]

Wasn't that like 2 years ago?

Caught up in the past I see; I would suggest coming up with something relevant

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1272941193' post='2285861']
If you guys thought C&G was going to get rolled, you were really pretty dumb all along. Not that you wouldn't have company in that area. A whole lot of company.

Let me put it this way. Once upon a time, there was a war where C&G did in fact get rolled. Not long before the war, Sparta had an MADP with an alliance that happened to be on your side.

Have you already forgotten what they did then?
[/quote]

Where is your disgust with UPN Haf? They didn't help you guys because of their ties to the otherside too, but you aren't as angry with them because you know UPN aren't really that bad when you get down to it.

Neither are Sparta.

Every alliance faces tough decisions in their history, Invicta's is no more pure than that of Sparta's, had you been in Sparta's shoes and your allies were the ones leading the steamroller would it then be fair to question if you will always choose the winning side?

The accusations being brought against them are ridiculous, they've done very little wrong recently so people have to really reach to find problems with them.

For the record: Hindsight is 20/20, the war TOP initiated on CnG did not look as 1-sided at the onstart as the war turned out, pure numbers were still hazy, it could have gone either way. Not to mention the previous blue balls war in which the numbers were even more even but Sparta still had chosen a side.

Haf, I used to respect you when I was a young leader, but you constantly bring up these arguments that don't hold any significant ground and beat them to death.

Everyone needs to stop trying to demonize another alliance full of good people, you don't have to hate someone to fight them in the future if it came to that.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1272941184' post='2285860']
I believe you misunderstand the meaning of the word argument.
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1272941184' post='2285860']
To reply to your previous post, though, I have responded to his statements, by telling him that if he really cares so much he should make an honest effort to actually learn about what we have done, instead of stating that we have done nothing. I don't see how that's [i]ad hominem[/i].

Sure there may be some [i]ad hominem[/i] fluff, but it's not my central point, just the one you guys are hinging on to try and mar my credibility.

[i]I do expect a "What credibility?" comeback to this, btw. You aren't original, whoever you are. [/i]
[/quote]
lol

You really don't know who I am, do you? But I digress. This topic is not about me. It's about Sparta, not Rebel Virginia's credibility, and to a lesser extent ODN.

To wit: Sparta's batting average for cancelling treaties with people on the losing side of major wars is 1.000. They have always done it. It's the major dividing line between them and the old OIN, now consigned to that section of the dustbin of history reserved for those alliances of integrity unable to find allies of equal calibre to them.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1272941193' post='2285861']
If you guys thought C&G was going to get rolled, you were really pretty dumb all along. Not that you wouldn't have company in that area. A whole lot of company.

Let me put it this way. Once upon a time, there was a war where C&G did in fact get rolled. Not long before the war, Sparta had an MADP with an alliance that happened to be on your side.

Have you already forgotten what they did then?
[/quote]
Okay, we are dumb, doesn't change the fact that we thought we were going to get rolled, or at least be in for a [i]very[/i] evenly weighted and intense war.

As for that MDAP partner, I'm glad you're stuck so far in the past. Still don't see how it's relevant to anything at this point in time. [This point in time happens to be the present.]

If you don't trust us, you can continue to give us nasty looks, or you can [i]actually [/i]get to know us. If you don't like us, I'm sure it's a nice bit of mud to keep around, though, amirite?

Edited May 4, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[Sandwich Controversy]

Sparta actually owns and took a ton of damage in the last war for us, being instrumental to our overall victory. Don't knock Sparta.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='03 May 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1272941743' post='2285879']
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument[/quote] I'm sure that wiki article has much to do with your comprehension, but I digress.


[quote]lol[/quote] lol indeed?

[quote]You really don't know who I am, do you? But I digress. This topic is not about me. It's about Sparta, not Rebel Virginia's credibility, and to a lesser extent ODN.[/quote]
I really don't. It's definitely not. You are wrong - if you check the OP it's about ODN and Sparta to an equal extent, people are just focusing on Sparta. IF you have actually read any of my posts you'd see my attempt to keep this discussion away from Sparta and more concentrated on the actual treaty.

[quote]To wit: Sparta's batting average for cancelling treaties with people on the losing side of major wars is 1.000. They have always done it. It's the major dividing line between them and the old OIN, now consigned to that section of the dustbin of history reserved for those alliances of integrity unable to find allies of equal calibre to them.
[/quote] Refer to my last sentence and tell me how answering this would be any where near productive for me.

Edited May 4, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[Haflinger]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1272941744' post='2285880']
Okay, we are dumb, doesn't change the fact that we thought we were going to get rolled, or at least be in for a [i]very[/i] evenly weighted and intense war.
[/quote]
You really are reminding me of bigwoody. (He thought Karma was going to be evenly balanced before it happened.)

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1272941744' post='2285880']
As for that MDAP partner, I'm glad you're stuck so far in the past. Still don't see how it's relevant to anything at this point in time. [This point in time happens to be the present.]
[/quote]
Well, if it had been just a one time thing, that'd be one thing. But then your leader comes out a year later and talks about having been involved in Karma for months while still holding full membership in Continuum... [img]http://www.maintitles.net/gfx/smileys/facepalm.gif[/img]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='03 May 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1272941744' post='2285880']
If you don't trust us, you can continue to give us nasty looks, or you can [i]actually [/i]get to know us. If you don't like us, I'm sure it's a nice bit of mud to keep around, though, amirite?
[/quote]
You probably should really not make as many assumptions as you seem to be doing about my feelings.

If I really did care about you guys, it would be because of getting pretty outrageous reps from Legion. That's why the Legion and ex-Legion posters are in here posting negatively, because they feel betrayed by what was once considered Legion's most loyal ally.

I don't. Sorry.

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='03 May 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1272942017' post='2285888']
Sparta actually owns and [b]took a ton of damage in the last war for us,[/b] being instrumental to our overall victory. Don't knock Sparta.
[/quote]
This is the military purpose of a meatshield.