Who's Tech Dealing With The Gramlins

[Banksy]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='22 April 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1271892945' post='2269798']
Find a quote that actually says that.[/quote]
lolwut

You weren't paying much attention to their rhetoric, were you. Half of TOP's posts on the CNF stated they were going to 'bring eternal war to C&G' and 'do a VietTOP.' All talk of eternal war is senseless bravado- whether it comes from the 'winning' or 'losing' side.

[Dathtoal]

[quote name='flak attack' date='21 April 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1271887738' post='2269661']
I take it you will be dropping your IRON treaty, right?
[/quote]

Wasn't funny when kriekfreak used that tired bit the first time two pages ago. Try to keep up.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Dathtoal' date='21 April 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1271894982' post='2269854']
Wasn't funny when kriekfreak used that tired bit the first time two pages ago. Try to keep up.
[/quote]
He was insulting TORN. I was insulting IRON, though I'm beginning to see the merits of his idea.

[Dathtoal]

[quote name='flak attack' date='21 April 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1271895251' post='2269857']
He was insulting TORN. I was insulting IRON, though I'm beginning to see the merits of his idea.
[/quote]

Either way, it didn't make it any funnier. But maybe you'd like to compare what TORN and/or IRON are doing compared to what the RAMlins are doing to put some validity behind the uncreative insults? Go.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Dathtoal

[Vilien]

You mean a few members of an alliance with a decentralized tech dealing structure sent aid to an alliance you dislike? The horror!

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Banksy' date='21 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1271893268' post='2269805']
lolwut

You weren't paying much attention to their rhetoric, were you. Half of TOP's posts on the CNF stated they were going to 'bring eternal war to C&G' and 'do a VietTOP.' All talk of eternal war is senseless bravado- whether it comes from the 'winning' or 'losing' side.
[/quote]
Yeah, it was coming from both sides in that business. I want you to find a quote which states that under no conditions would they accept peace.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1271825438' post='2268818']
Actually, we did it.

We suspended a tech deal with TOP because first they attacked GPA, then we attacked Illuminati. Man was it a headache. Mostly my headache.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I never said it didn't happen, just that it was never announced. Do you agree it was uncommon?

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1271892945' post='2269798']
Why wars always have to end in surrender of one side is a bit odd though. But that's another discussion.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say they do. Ragnarok-OcUK and the TPF War off the top of my head.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='21 April 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1271899511' post='2269957']
Fair enough. I never said it didn't happen, just that it was never announced. Do you agree it was uncommon?
[/quote]
Oh yeah. I also kinda regretted how rare it is. If people had been unwilling to aid alliances at war, the whole FAN conflict could have been wrapped up a ton sooner. For example.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='21 April 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1271899511' post='2269957']
I wouldn't say they do. Ragnarok-OcUK and the TPF War off the top of my head.
[/quote]
Yeah, "always" is too strong; let's go with "nearly always."

[Lord Brendan]

Well, most wars end with one side soundly defeating the other. It seems natural that such wars would end with the defeated party surrendering.

[Chickenzilla]

HEY GUYS REMEMBER WHEN CTC WAS GIVING TOP TECH? LETS !@#$%* AND MOAN ABOUT IT TOO!!!

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='21 April 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1271900205' post='2269983']
Well, most wars end with one side soundly defeating the other. It seems natural that such wars would end with the defeated party surrendering.
[/quote]
The problem with that is that you get people unwilling to go to war unless they have a plan to force complete surrender. There's a distinct lack of risk-takers out there in Planet Bob because of this goalpost.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1271902020' post='2270035']
The problem with that is that you get people unwilling to go to war unless they have a plan to force complete surrender. There's a distinct lack of risk-takers out there in Planet Bob because of this goalpost.
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by "force complete surrender". I would agree though that most people are unwilling to start a war unless they are reasonably confident they can win, which seems perfectly logical to me.

[cookavich]

Give me a break. Most of the people who are !@#$%*ing and moaning over the Gromlins actions are the last people who should be casting stones.

[silentkiller]

[quote]Err..what?

That's not a meaningless semantic argument. Prevention implies they cannot attack. Deterrence means there are consequences if they do. Deterrents are designed to prevent things from happening, I agree, but there is still the ability for them to attack if they wish. As stated before, I don't wish to see that. [/quote]


So you are enabling Gremlins by keeping anyone who is not under Surrender terms from attacking Gre. But hey you are not a government member so it doesnt mean anything right?

Can you also direct me to MK's announcement where they decided to take the paperless route? Thanks.

Edited April 22, 2010 by silentkiller

[the masheen]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='21 April 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1271891109' post='2269755']
Right, I should probably have put 'victims of said attempted oppression' or something. The fact that Grämlins aren't big enough to actually force this through is a nice change from the Hegemony era, and to give C&G the credit they deserve, they are not jumping in to stop IRON/DAWN from inching forward towards that slow victory.

That doesn't really change the moral position though.

Edit: Masheen, a 'compromise' which requires IRON to surrender unconditionally – the single thing which is the most ridiculous and started this whole public anger against Grämlins – is nothing of the sort. The way for it to get sorted quickly is for C&G to allow material support for IRON/DAWN, but with the proviso that they will only stay out while Grämlins are in the wrong; hanging the threat of their entry over the IRON side will make sure they don't push too far (for example trying to get reps from Grämlins, which might well happen at the moment when it's just IRON/DAWN, as C&G can't re-engage them without breaking the peace agreement), and hanging the threat of staying out over Grämlins should stop them being ridiculous, too. Either that or they keep being ridiculous and receive a justified rolling for it.
[/quote]

I have a serious question. Has this war become a matter of pride, or are people actually looking out what's in the best interest of their alliance? If it's a matter of pride and that's the reason they won't surrender unconditionally, then I can see us all heading for the next world war. If they are legitamately concerned about what's going to happen after they surrender, we can most likely come up with a compromise.

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='21 April 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1271891936' post='2269776']
That would be a tad more logical/reasonable if:

1. IRON would even be open to unconditionally surrendering (to my understanding they would be under no circumstances).
2. MK was the only, or even the main, alliance one [b]should[/b] be concerned with with regards to supporting Grämlins.
[/quote]

"Should" is the key word. According to this thread it's all your fault that no one can come in and take action against the Gre, and you are clearly a link to C&G that would cause a huge war if you decided to get involved. That is the fear, and it seems pretty reasonable. But I agree with you, it's by no means all on you guys.

[Schattenmann]

Few people know that Bilrow was actually a Vox Populi ghost writer.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1271825438' post='2268818']
Actually, we did it.

We suspended a tech deal with TOP because first they attacked GPA, then we attacked Illuminati. Man was it a headache. Mostly my headache.
[/quote]
Wait, I just found an absolute hilarity here. Didn't you guys attack Illuminati because they were planning to join the War on Peace?

[The AUT]

[quote name='cookavich' date='22 April 2010 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1271902913' post='2270050']
Give me a break. Most of the people who are !@#$%*ing and moaning over the Gromlins actions are the last people who should be casting stones.
[/quote]

Nice to see some on the other side of things seeking justice for the few and not for all. So long as our friends and us are taken care of, who cares about the rest if they deserve it! I mean it's just IRON, right? So long as your conscience is clear.

Edited April 22, 2010 by The AUT

[shilo]

[quote name='Banksy' date='22 April 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1271892549' post='2269789']
Why would we want to beat down those we're receiving tech from, Shilo. Besides that, IRON are in, what, 0 defensive wars with the gremlins? Not particularly crippling
[/quote]
Who said you are beating us down? I sad you are gladly watching us getting beat down, and as it has no relevance on the reps you get, you absolutely don't mind anyways.
And we all know it's not about gRAMlins beating us down, it's about them being able to effectively stop our growth at around 35k NS, which makes rebuilding kinda difficult.

[wenwillthisend]

Can I just ask, do we have a valid CB against RnR, BAPS, The Legion, NSO, Lone Ninja, SNAFU, AGW Overlords, PC and Alpha Omega? Considering they have and are aiding IRON. Or did you forget to look at IRON's aid Birlow?

[Fallen Fool]

Honestly this entire issue is mostly nonsensical. Sending 100 tech to Gremlins in exchange for 3 million is not a form of military aid to be used against IRON et al because Gremlins, according to common conversion standards, has no net gain from the transaction.

Still I suppose this could be be loosely interpreted as an act of war against IRON et al, but.honestly that is an issue between IRON et al and those who choose to have financial transactions with Gremlins during war time. The peanut gallery should not somehow factor into the equation.

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='22 April 2010 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1271916637' post='2270408']
Can I just ask, do we have a valid CB against RnR, BAPS, The Legion, NSO, Lone Ninja, SNAFU, AGW Overlords, PC and Alpha Omega? Considering they have and are aiding IRON. Or did you forget to look at IRON's aid Birlow?
[/quote]Don't let your facts or logic get in the way of trashing Gremlins!

Edited April 22, 2010 by Fallen_Fool

[wenwillthisend]

[quote name='Fallen_Fool' date='22 April 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1271918173' post='2270438']

Don't let your facts or logic get in the way of trashing Gremlins!
[/quote]


But I wish too, it is about time really

[shilo]

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='22 April 2010 - 08:10 AM' timestamp='1271916637' post='2270408']
Can I just ask, do we have a valid CB against RnR, BAPS, The Legion, NSO, Lone Ninja, SNAFU, AGW Overlords, PC and Alpha Omega? Considering they have and are aiding IRON. Or did you forget to look at IRON's aid Birlow?
[/quote]
Go ahead and attack them, I am sure it cannot harm your reputation any more than your current leadership already has.

[ironchef]

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='21 April 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1271916637' post='2270408']
Can I just ask, do we have a valid CB against RnR, BAPS, The Legion, NSO, Lone Ninja, SNAFU, AGW Overlords, PC and Alpha Omega? Considering they have and are aiding IRON. Or did you forget to look at IRON's aid Birlow?
[/quote]

Why ask Bilrow, you didn’t bother to ask your friends or listen to them when you chose to keep fighting IRON and DAWN even after your friends gave terms and ended their war with them you felt it was valid to keep on fighting. You didn’t ask if this crazy idea of total disarmament and unconditonal surrender before peace talks could take place was a valid move. Grämlins will do as Grämlins pleases friends,allies and CN be damned.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='22 April 2010 - 07:10 AM' timestamp='1271916637' post='2270408']
Can I just ask, do we have a valid CB against RnR, BAPS, The Legion, NSO, Lone Ninja, SNAFU, AGW Overlords, PC and Alpha Omega? Considering they have and are aiding IRON. Or did you forget to look at IRON's aid Birlow?
[/quote]
Sure. Have fun with that. Aiding an alliance at war has been a CB for a long time – for example doing donation deals with FAN during VietFAN wasn't permitted, despite FAN being one of the larger sellers before then. And if you go ahead and open a new offensive war then you'll lose faster and we can bury this whole episode sooner.

[quote]I have a serious question. Has this war become a matter of pride, or are people actually looking out what's in the best interest of their alliance?[/quote]
Unconditionally surrendering is never in your best interests. But it has also become a matter of seting a precedent – no-one who has their head screwed on right wants to see Grämlins able to push this through, because the likely outcome is that people would be forced to do it in subsequent major wars. And that prospect is, without even exaggerating, worse than the Hegemonic era.

Regarding 'MK is not the biggest enabler', I'm curious: who is? MHA? MK is the largest alliance in C&G and there aren't many bigger than them who ever had a stake in this front.