IRON Dispatch

[William Blake]

Congrats on the milestone, guys. You were always solid allies. Now just end this war before your 5th birthday.

[Hadrian]

Four years of awesomeness. May there be many more. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='21 April 2010 - 09:21 AM' timestamp='1271856042' post='2269084']
Actually that is nothing at all like what happened, and of all the things in our history if I was going to apologise for something it would not be NPO et al rolling The League. We stayed out of a conflict that we had absolutely no stake in so go figure. It was easy to stay independent of the conflict because we had absolutely nothing to gain by entering it. As for treatying ourself with NPO, it made perfect sense, they were a powerful alliance who had always in our experience remained friendly to us, when we had the likes of GOONs and FAN talking about rolling us for !@#$% and giggles, allying ourself to the most powerful alliance on the planet made perfect sense and helped ensure that IRON could exist independent of foreign oppression. As for being a vassal the only evidence you have for that is your own stereotypes. If you want to judge us then perhaps you should get some first hand experience of us first.[/quote]
I think the way you speak of your relationship with the NPO here is precisely what made you their vassal.

[quote]The word atone was used in the wrong context? so what? Have you got a question to ask or are just here to be a pedantic? Really some people must live boring lives.[/quote]
It's here to be a "pedant" - pedantic is an adjective, pedant is the noun.

[quote]You could atone for raining on our birthday parade. It's our fourth birthday and we will redefine any word we god damn please [/quote]
I'm independent so I can do the same.

[quote]I'd like to correct you on a few points in your post, firstly IRON did have a pressing interest in the FAN war. FAN had repeatedly threatened IRON and had openly discussed rolling us for something to do. Coupled with their constant hostile nature and dismissive tone toward IRON, IRON had every reason to believe FAN was a present danger.[/quote]
They really weren't a danger when joined their curbstomp. Let me quote from your wiki (which is a fascinating read):

[quote]On ten minutes notice, IRON announced it would respect its treaty commitments to the MCXA and declare war on FAN. Amazingly, that treaty was signed the same day and had yet to have been announced to the world.

...

What IRON lacked in experience, it made up for in the sheer number of allies they were fighting with.
[/quote]

But yeah, you might've been threatened by FAN, but you chose to sacrifice your liberty to gain security. That's the opposite of independence.

[quote]As for the part about "neutral" alliances may as well be called "unaligned", that is woefully dismissive of the bonds between individual players in an alliance. Just because an alliance chooses not to involve itself in world politics does not allow for you to negate the comradeship present between the individuals that make up that alliance.
[/quote]
You would really think that I would be denigrating so-called "neutral" alliances when I'm effectively in one? Before treatying up to the Pacifican hegemony, IRON was [i]unaligned[/i] to any political power.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Ashoka the Great]

Memo to IRON:

As someone with more than a passing interest in words and their use, I could not help but make my earlier point. I did not intend for it to turn into a lengthy discussion, however.

[b]But I will not apologize.[/b]

- kz


PS: Oops. I forgot to atone. Therefore, I am pleased to offer [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style"]a gift[/url] to the author of the OP.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Ashoka the Great

[Derantol]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='21 April 2010 - 09:32 AM' timestamp='1271867507' post='2269195']
I think the way you speak of your relationship with the NPO here is precisely what made you their vassal.
[/quote]

I think the way you ignore the term "allying" invalidates that argument.

[quote]
They really weren't a danger when joined their curbstomp... [snip]

But yeah, you might've been threatened by FAN, but you chose to sacrifice your liberty to gain security. That's the opposite of independence.
[/quote]

I'd argue the opposite in this case. We had two choices; risk getting rolled by FAN or whichever alliance didn't like us at the time, or choose (remember that word) to ally ourselves to another. To us, the choice was clear; there was enough aggression present that we didn't want to take the chance. We joined in the curbstomp precisely *because* we felt threatened.

So we were either going to choose to sacrifice our liberty or were going to have that decision made for us. I believe the independent chooses to preserve what they have now in order to be more able to exercise it later.

[quote]
You would really think that I would be denigrating so-called "neutral" alliances when I'm effectively in one? Before treatying up to the Pacifican hegemony, IRON was [i]unaligned[/i] to any political power.
[/quote]

I actually have no problem with this one, as I agree. The first usage of the word was a little vague, but it becomes quite clear what you're intending to say here.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Derantol' date='21 April 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1271868282' post='2269205']
I think the way you ignore the term "allying" invalidates that argument.[/quote]
"allying ourself to the most powerful alliance on the planet"
Clearly not a relationship of equals, you entered the relationship to secure yourselves but I have a feeling there was little consideration on how the treaty benefited the NPO; you needed them but I doubt they needed you.

[quote]I'd argue the opposite in this case. We had two choices; risk getting rolled by FAN or whichever alliance didn't like us at the time, or choose (remember that word) to ally ourselves to another. To us, the choice was clear; there was enough aggression present that we didn't want to take the chance. We joined in the curbstomp precisely *because* we felt threatened.

So we were either going to choose to sacrifice our liberty or were going to have that decision made for us. I believe the independent chooses to preserve what they have now in order to be more able to exercise it later.[/quote]
You shouldn't have felt threatened once you got word of the curbstomp (the day you "amazingly" also treatied into the fight) because FAN was going to be buried under WUT's numbers. You [i]clearly[/i] wouldn't have lost your liberty to FAN if you had remained separate from the NPO and their allies because FAN was eliminated as a threat before they attacked you and would've been eliminated even without your military contribution. That's obvious in hindsight but even at the time you didn't need to sign an MADP with MCXA to defend yourselves from FAN.

Now, maybe you could make a case that you needed to ally yourself to the NPO [i]to protect yourselves from the NPO[/i] - but that goes back how your relationship with them in the first place was something approaching vassalage (or joining the mob so you don't have to choose between paying protection money and donning cement shoes).

Edited April 21, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Derantol]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='21 April 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1271869169' post='2269223']
"allying ourself to the most powerful alliance on the planet"
Clearly not a relationship of equals, you entered the relationship to secure yourselves but I have a feeling there was little consideration on how the treaty benefited the NPO; you needed them but I doubt they needed you.


You shouldn't have felt threatened once you got word of the curbstomp (the day you "amazingly" also treatied into the fight) because FAN was going to be buried under WUT's numbers. You [i]clearly[/i] wouldn't have lost your liberty to FAN if you had remained separate from the NPO and their allies because FAN was eliminated as a threat before they attacked you and would've been eliminated even without your military contribution. That's obvious in hindsight but even at the time you didn't need to sign an MADP with MCXA to defend yourselves from FAN.

Now, maybe you could make a case that you needed to ally yourself to the NPO [i]to protect yourselves from the NPO[/i] - but that goes back how your relationship with them in the first place was something approaching vassalage (or joining the mob so you don't have to choose between paying protection money and donning cement shoes).
[/quote]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose that an imbalance of power does not equate to vassalage. Is CnG comprised of ODN and MK, the remaining members being vassals? That's only one example. Almost every treaty on this planet is between two powers who are inequal in power. Treaties are generally signed between alliances that get along, or so I hear. We got along with NPO, so why not sign a treaty with them?

As far as FAN is concerned, I'd personally agree that we bandwagoned onto that one. A lot of us felt like we had a bit of a personal beef with FAN (whether it was legitimate or not), so we wanted to get in our hits. The treaty was signed, again, with an alliance that we got along with.


All of that being said, if simply allying to the NPO at that point in history is considered to be vassalage, then I suppose that we were vassals.

[Heft]

NPO was actually the [i]fourth[/i] military treaty we signed (not counting OPA ), after MCXA, TOP, and Polar.

We didn't sacrifice our liberty because we no longer had any real liberty (or "independence") with GOONS/FAN/\m//etc becoming more powerful and threatening to supplant the Orders (both of whom had, at worst, simply left us alone and were often amiable and cordial to us). We were unable to act in our own interests or assert ourselves how we wished without the constant threat of someone deciding to bring their gang over and run us into the ground. And yes I realize the irony.

[Arcades057]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='21 April 2010 - 12:32 PM' timestamp='1271867507' post='2269195']

It's here to be a "pedant" - pedantic is an adjective, pedant is the noun.


They really weren't a danger when [b][u]you [/u][/b]joined their curbstomp. Let me quote from your wiki (which is a fascinating read):


But yeah, [b]you might've been threatened by FAN[/b], but you chose to sacrifice your liberty to gain security. That's the opposite of independence.


You would really think that I would be denigrating so-called "neutral" alliances when I'm effectively in one? Before treatying up to the Pacifican hegemony, IRON was [i]unaligned[/i] to any political power.
[/quote]

Reading this made my head hurt. Maybe the next time you go around correcting people on grammar or word-usage you might try not missing words in your own post.

As to the bolded part, as a member of FAN during that time I can attest to the fact that IRON did face a real and present danger from FAN. Their having joined the war against FAN was in their best interests, and, as anyone who has ever been to war can attest to, war forges strong bonds to those fighting on the same side. To fault them for allying themselves with Pacifica means you believe they should have remained neutral during a rather turbulent time in history. They also faced a danger from GOONS, as did every other alliance for the most part. IRON was able to read the writing on the wall and adapted to the political environment of the day much better than other neutral alliances.

Allying yourself does not remove your liberty. To think differently means that you have no experience with alliances, and I doubt that's true.

[shilo]

Arcades, who was a member of FAN back then, knows what we all are talking about. Anyone else who was part of IRON or FAN back then does so as well, believe me, joining that war was more than justified for IRON, and it made a whole lot of sense.

And getting potent allies just around the time where being alone became really dangerous (yes, Goons and FAN, were allies of NPO, but also the worst bullies out there) was a very smart thing to do, and NPO was more than happy to get a well organized and large alliance as ally.

Edited April 21, 2010 by shilo

[T.Hubb]

Congrats from the Legion to our friends and allies in IRON for celebrating your fourth year of existence!

We you guys.

o/IRON

Ferro Credimus!

[AvengingAngel256]

Guys, stop derailing what should be a thread of congratulations

Congrats to IRON for their Fourth Birthday!
Good luck in the next four.

[Krash]

Happy birthday IRON!!!

I have yet to receive the orange Mega Man I requested, so I am hoping someone is late to the party.

[Dinux]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='21 April 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1271805728' post='2268379']
No questions for us
[/quote]

- Hows the relationship with NPO almost a year after karma, and if you could pick one point to improve (if needed), What would that be?




And before I forgot... Happy 4th anniversary IRON

Edited April 21, 2010 by Dinux

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='20 April 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1271815163' post='2268555']
Blue Steel Concords, no? With Halsa gone I believe it is now the oldest active MDP.
[/quote]
IRON's first MDP was signed with ONOS I believe. It was a secret treaty and it was before July of 2007 I believe.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[ROMMELHSQ]

Happy birthday friends!
o/

[Derantol]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='21 April 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1271878393' post='2269398']
IRON's first MDP was signed with ONOS I believe. It was a secret treaty and it was before July of 2007 I believe.
[/quote]

As I recall, it was an ODP that we decided pretty quickly to drop. I think our first MDP was with OPA (I think that's stated earlier in the thread, too).

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='21 April 2010 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1271867507' post='2269195']
I think the way you speak of your relationship with the NPO here is precisely what made you their vassal.


It's here to be a "pedant" - pedantic is an adjective, pedant is the noun.


I'm independent so I can do the same.


They really weren't a danger when joined their curbstomp. Let me quote from your wiki (which is a fascinating read):



But yeah, you might've been threatened by FAN, but you chose to sacrifice your liberty to gain security. That's the opposite of independence.


You would really think that I would be denigrating so-called "neutral" alliances when I'm effectively in one? Before treatying up to the Pacifican hegemony, IRON was [i]unaligned[/i] to any political power.
[/quote]

Firstly the way I speak of the relationship between IRON and NPO reflects exactly what it was, a mutually beneficial friendship between two parties that held a great deal of respect for one another. The term vassal implies that we would bend to the will of the NPO whenever they wanted, that is incorrect and as I stated previously you base that assumption off the stereotypes you have seen created here. With no first hand experience on which to base your speculation you form opinion based on the stereotypes made by those who would profit from our demise. Your opinion is thus second hand, largely bias and in all honesty pretty far from the mark.

As for your second point, I believe I already addressed this, it is totally dependent on your interpretation of Liberty, traditional Liberalism would posit that freedom is based on the absence of outside interventions. The likes of Isiah Berlin however would posit that Liberty can be viewed both negatively and positively. The positive notion of Liberty stipulates that freedom can only be achieved by the progression of the individual toward his full potential, Berlin recognized numerous inhibiter's in society to ones progression toward this goal, these included poverty, lack of education etc and recognized that in some instances outside intervention in order to enable progression toward self realization may be necessary. In the same way IRON sacrificed the notion that liberty, independence etc could be achieved by removing ourself completely from world affairs. Instead we would make friends in order to ensure that IRON's community would be preserved and remain sovereign free from the oppression of others. This way IRON truly could make decisions for itself without fear of unjust retribution or influence. We enabled ourselves to make decisions for ourselves by acquiring the resources to do so.

This is why I find your statement that we became vassals rather insulting, IRON became no such thing, instead we were more able to make decisions for ourselves than ever before.

[quote name='Dinux' date='21 April 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1271878182' post='2269394']
- Hows the relationship with NPO almost a year after karma, and if you could pick one point to improve (if needed), What would that be?




And before I forgot... Happy 4th anniversary IRON
[/quote]

Our relationship with NPO is cordial and friendly. As for the second point I presume you mean if I could pick one point about our alliance to improve what would it be? I'll go off that but please feel free to correct me.

If I could improve one thing about IRON it would be the quantity and quality of our presence on the OWF. As you well know most IRON members stay at home on our forums and rarely venture outside, I sometimes feel that we get a bad press because we don't really have adequate representation here.


EDIT: Missed the question sorry Dinux

Edited April 21, 2010 by MCRABT

[Enrage]

Happy Bday to one of the best alliances out there.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Enrage

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Derantol' date='21 April 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1271879479' post='2269425']
As I recall, it was an ODP that we decided pretty quickly to drop. I think our first MDP was with OPA (I think that's stated earlier in the thread, too).
[/quote]
It was an MDP. It was an ODP in public, but an MDP in private.

[Firkked]

Happy Birthday to my once and future alliance. Many thanks from all our well wishing friends.

[quote name='MCRABT' date='21 April 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1271880286' post='2269450']If I could improve one thing about IRON it would be the quantity and quality of our presence on the OWF. As you well know most IRON members stay at home on our forums and rarely venture outside, I sometimes feel that we get a bad press because we don't really have adequate representation here.[/quote]

Perhaps it's due to the desire to avoid those that have swallowed the blue pill that keeps us away...

Edited April 21, 2010 by Firkked

[Fine Arts]

Congratulations, happy birthday and best wishes.

[Shan Revan]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='22 April 2010 - 06:47 AM' timestamp='1271882853' post='2269502']
It was an MDP. It was an ODP in public, but an MDP in private.
[/quote]
Whilst this was roughly the original intent (a very, very strongly defensively worded ODP), ONOS very rapidly changed their stance on that after some bad comments from their allies in the announcement thread.

[Dinux]

Sry Rab, Me bad.....

The 2:nd part of my Q was [i](meant[/i]) too adress the relationship with NPO at current date.
And if IRON saw some part that they like to improve, What would that be?

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Shan Revan' date='21 April 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1271884278' post='2269540']
Whilst this was roughly the original intent (a very, very strongly defensively worded ODP), ONOS very rapidly changed their stance on that after some bad comments from their allies in the announcement thread.
[/quote]
As Fury stated privately, it was signed by both parties as an MDP secretly. We said "Strong ODP" in public. We *did* change it, but it was still technically an MDP at first. And I will stick to it cause I consider myself the person who took your isolation virginity away and I am proud of that. SO EAT IT.

Also, I love you.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Ejayrazz