The Easter Sunday Accords

[RustyNail]

I think the point has been made that there are those that could 'do something about it' without even the slightest question about re-entry terms. I personally consider this an entirely different issue as the original war is resolved and the parties are at peace with each other. Inasmuch, re-entry should not be an issue but that is for the lawyers to decide I suppose.

Again...there may be those that can do something about it, the question remains...will they?

[silentkiller]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='06 April 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1270581471' post='2250574']
News flash: The big bad Ramlins only have 4 declared wars on IRON. Conversely, IRON and DAWN have declared quite a few on them. Before you're willing to paint people on this side a certain color for not doing anything, first ask yourself does anything need to be done immediately? Or do you think that maybe there are those who think the best course of action here is to let this play itself out for a little while before deciding what course of action to take.

I'd rather postpone any intervention than set the precedent that the no re-entry terms that we took very seriously in this past war are going to not be taken seriously in the future. [b]IRON is under no duress right[/b] now, and as more people get an actual chance to talk to the sides and see what is really going on, I believe we will get closer to a resolution.
[/quote]


While I agree with most of your post, the bolded bit is wrong. IRON cannot take its top nations out of peace mode(you know the ones that will be rebuilding pretty much everyone in IRON) as they'll come under attack by Gremlins as soon as they come out.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='06 April 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1270581471' post='2250574']
News flash: The big bad Ramlins only have 4 declared wars on IRON. Conversely, IRON and DAWN have declared quite a few on them. Before you're willing to paint people on this side a certain color for not doing anything, first ask yourself does anything need to be done immediately? Or do you think that maybe there are those who think the best course of action here is to let this play itself out for a little while before deciding what course of action to take.

I'd rather postpone any intervention than set the precedent that the no re-entry terms that we took very seriously in this past war are going to not be taken seriously in the future. IRON is under no duress right now, and as more people get an actual chance to talk to the sides and see what is really going on, I believe we will get closer to a resolution.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]All those in range of Gre are in peace mode at the moment. Should they leave they will be pummeled. They cannot defend themselves, and they cannot rebuild. IRON is in duress. Because of Gre they have a perpetual war on their hands which they cannot get out of.

Also, where did I say to lift the no-reentry terms? I said to go in yourself and do something about it. You have made it clear you dislike the entire situation, and as far as I know VE is not under any terms preventing it from acting.[/color]

[Goldie]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='06 April 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1270581965' post='2250585']
[color="#0000FF"]All those in range of Gre are in peace mode at the moment. Should they leave they will be pummeled. They cannot defend themselves, and they cannot rebuild. IRON is in duress. Because of Gre they have a perpetual war on their hands which they cannot get out of.

Also, where did I say to lift the no-reentry terms? I said to go in yourself and do something about it. You have made it clear you dislike the entire situation, and as far as I know VE is not under any terms preventing it from acting.[/color]
[/quote]

If VE were to 'do something' about it, it would not be without first discussing it with many different alliances.

Silentkiller, I agree with the point you made, I worded improperly. What I meant to say, is that there is nothing ridiculously urgent about this. This isn't a Ramlins alliance that blitzed the crap out of IRON and has done a ton of damage, there is time to work this out and ensure that two precedents are maintained: that the concept of unconditional surrender and keeping alliances in war after peacing out with an entire coalition is not something the world will support or tolerate, and that terms signed by surrendering alliances, especially light, simple, and easy to follow ones like no re-entry will continue to be followed. I will borrow a page from the coincidence coalition and say that diplomacy should take the day here. If diplomacy can not work, then perhaps more extreme measures can be looked in to, but luckily for everyone involved, IRON is not in need of an immediate conclusion to this at whatever cost, so we have the time to work for the best possible solution.

[Goldie]

Also, the last time an alliance stood up for what they thought was right and actually did something about it, they were derided as trying to police the world, and we have the destruction of TOP/IRON and a phyrric victory for C&G to show for it. Forgive my lack of haste here.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='06 April 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1270581000' post='2250569']
[color="#0000FF"]

Of course it would. This is VE we're talking about. We can't really expect y'all to grow a backbone overnight now can we?[/color]
[/quote]

You don't pay much attention to things, do you. There are quite a few derogatory things you could say about us, but that certainly isn't one of them. Also you obviously didn't actually read my explanation, which many on both sides agreed with, and are just continuing to say assorted stuff like usual so I'll just leave it at that and direct my efforts to those who can actually discuss things.


[quote name='silentkiller' date='06 April 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1270581762' post='2250580']
While I agree with most of your post, the bolded bit is wrong. IRON cannot take its top nations out of peace mode(you know the ones that will be rebuilding pretty much everyone in IRON) as they'll come under attack by Gremlins as soon as they come out.
[/quote]

^He's pretty much right goldie.

[Supertwigs]

[quote name='Branimir' date='05 April 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1270505218' post='2249600']
Was fun seeing Letum destroy Denial, btw.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that repeating "quantity of reps determine harshness" whilst sticking fingers in his ears and ignoring any other argument constitutes "destroying", tbqh.

I mean, if he really believes that, then the first amount of reps ever requested for a global war during surrender negotiations should be the "standard" by which all reps are determined, which, as I recall, were somewhere along the lines of 20 million.

So either ever amount of reps after that are draconian, or LUE was just the most kind alliance in the history of the world.

[kriegsdrachen]

Wow, about time.

So other than those listed after the terms, is anyone else still at war?

[silentkiller]

[quote name='goldielax25' date='06 April 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1270582718' post='2250593']
If VE were to 'do something' about it, it would not be without first discussing it with many different alliances.

Silentkiller, I agree with the point you made, I worded improperly. What I meant to say, is that there is nothing ridiculously urgent about this. This isn't a Ramlins alliance that blitzed the crap out of IRON and has done a ton of damage, there is time to work this out and ensure that two precedents are maintained: that the concept of unconditional surrender and keeping alliances in war after peacing out with an entire coalition is not something the world will support or tolerate, and that terms signed by surrendering alliances, especially light, simple, and easy to follow ones like no re-entry will continue to be followed. I will borrow a page from the coincidence coalition and say that diplomacy should take the day here. If diplomacy can not work, then perhaps more extreme measures can be looked in to, but luckily for everyone involved, IRON is not in need of an immediate conclusion to this at whatever cost, so we have the time to work for the best possible solution.
[/quote]

Yeah thats definitely more understandable. Hopefully Gremlins realises that they are not going to get what they want soon and this whole sorry episode is put to an end.

[OOC] I hate you and Impero for killing me in Supremacy D: [OOC]

[KingEd]

It doesn't need to be said that this situation is completely unacceptable. However, there's little if anything that can be done for IRON from both sides. Like it or not, we all know Gremlins rule the field, and even if we wanted too, there's nothing we can do. As much as it sucks to be IRON right now, it sucks much more to be everyone else since all of our hands seem to be [i]tied[/i] and the realization that we're obviously nothing compared to Ram.

Edited April 6, 2010 by KingEd

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Vhalen' date='06 April 2010 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1270571746' post='2250434']
Oh, you have it all wrong. I'm not worried about anyone, and would be perfectly content if both alliances ground each other into a fine powder. I was just pointing out that IRON still had military options, despite how their representative posters in this thread make it sound. I thought maybe we could hear a little less about how 60 people are oppressing 350, if I pointed out how easy it is to render much of Gramlins' effective strength useless, and play the numbers game in the middle ranks.

But I can see my comments fall on closed ears, so if it makes you feel better, forget I said anything. Feel free to embarrass yourselves at your leisure.
[/quote]

60 vs 350 unfortunately is one of the most vague arguments you can make. How many in 350 are not in peace mode are in some sort of fighting shape?...very few..how many of them can do significant damage to Gre? ... :/.

Our top tier will be utterly destroyed by Gramlins easily and simply. So they are stuck in peace mode. They are the ones that are going to help and take nations out of bill lock, rebuild and get the reps started flowing. Now they cant do any of that.

We are also under economic embargo, any aid from outside will be viewed by enablers as an act of war. To top off the hypocrisy..at the same time, its okay for Gramlins to carry out economic transactions outside of its AA. We are not 'restricted' by terms but we've already gotten the answer from Gre's friends/allies as to what would happen if someone dares aids us in any shape or form.

Playing the middle-ranks will create alot more relative destruction for us, we have limited resources and we are under obligation to pay reps, by no means those reps are any light, but we have agreed to it and we intend to finish them in good faith and with deliberation. The central parties in this conflict have resolved the situation..so then on what basis and on what casus belli does Gre continues the conflict? I'd love to hear it.

Playing the middle-rank wars just depletes us further and further. Who'd fund the middle-rank wars? Gre top tier can, ours cannot. It will again, only delay how long we remain under the terms, it will only make the terms relatively alot more harsher...given the present situation and the effective support Gre has managed to obtain, Gre can continue this forever, I'd like to see any indication if thats not the case..as of now, its all pointing to as long as they can..and with present support they have, yes they can.

Edited April 6, 2010 by shahenshah

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='06 April 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1270585301' post='2250644']
60 vs 350 unfortunately is one of the most vague arguments you can make. How many in 350 are not in peace mode are in some sort of fighting shape?...very few..how many of them can do significant damage to Gre? ... :/.

Our top tier will be utterly destroyed by Gramlins easily and simply. So they are stuck in peace mode. They are the ones that are going to help and take nations out of bill lock, rebuild and get the reps started flowing. Now they cant do any of that.

We are also under economic embargo, any aid from outside will be viewed by enablers as an act of war. To top off the hypocrisy..at the same time, its okay for Gramlins to carry out economic transactions outside of its AA. We are not 'restricted' by terms but we've already gotten the answer from Gre's friends/allies as to what would happen if someone dares aids us in any shape or form.

Playing the middle-ranks will create alot more relative destruction for us, we have limited resources and we are under obligation to pay reps, by no means those reps are any light, but we have agreed to it and we intend to finish them in good faith and with deliberation. The central parties in this conflict have resolved the situation..so then on what basis and on what casus belli does Gre continues the conflict? I'd love to hear it.

Playing the middle-rank wars just depletes us further and further. Who'd fund the middle-rank wars? Gre top tier can, ours cannot. It will again, only delay how long we remain under the terms, it will only make the terms relatively alot more harsher...given the present situation and the effective support Gre has managed to obtain, Gre can continue this forever, I'd like to see any indication if thats not the case..as of now, its all pointing to as long as they can..and with present support they have, yes they can.
[/quote]

Matt Miller will take down gRamlins, all by himself! GO GO GADGET BUBBLER!

[silentkiller]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='06 April 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1270585301' post='2250644']


We are also under economic embargo, any aid from outside will be viewed by enablers as an act of war. To top off the hypocrisy..at the same time, its okay for Gramlins to carry out economic transactions outside of its AA. We are not 'restricted' by terms but we've already gotten the answer from Gre's friends/allies as to what would happen if someone dares aids us in any shape or form.


[/quote]

Wait a minute, do you mean economic aid by alliances who are not currently under surrender terms? If so I sure would love to know who these friends/allies are.

Edited April 6, 2010 by silentkiller

[Pearl]

[quote name='KainIIIC' date='06 April 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1270585735' post='2250653']
Matt Miller will take down gRamlins, all by himself! GO GO GADGET BUBBLER!
[/quote]

bubbler is win. He did pretty well in the war it looks like. Exceptionally well considering he was left out there by himself.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]We are also under economic embargo, any aid from outside will be viewed by enablers as an act of war.[/quote]
I'd like some clarification on this point. The 'enablers' (by which I assume you mean various SG alliances) are not at war with IRON and this stipulation is not present in the peace agreement, so I'm not sure that's true.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='06 April 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1270586638' post='2250669']
I'd like some clarification on this point. The 'enablers' (by which I assume you mean various SG alliances) are not at war with IRON and this stipulation is not present in the peace agreement, so I'm not sure that's true.
[/quote]

You are correct. There is no restriction on outside aid. It is up to the defeated alliances to manage their slots properly in order to pay the reps off in the allotted time.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='06 April 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1270586638' post='2250669']
I'd like some clarification on this point. The 'enablers' (by which I assume you mean various SG alliances) are not at war with IRON and this stipulation is not present in the peace agreement, so I'm not sure that's true.
[/quote]

What I got for that is that it would be viewed as an act of war towards Gremlins, which would then result in a response by their paperless allies. Although yeah definitely need Shahenshah to clarify this.

Edited April 6, 2010 by silentkiller

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='KingEd' date='06 April 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1270583511' post='2250614']
It doesn't need to be said that this situation is completely unacceptable. However, there's little if anything that can be done for IRON from both sides. Like it or not, we all know Gremlins rule the field, and even if we wanted too, there's nothing we can do. As much as it sucks to be IRON right now, it sucks much more to be everyone else since all of our hands seem to be [i]tied[/i] and the realization that we're obviously nothing compared to Ram.
[/quote]
All hail Ramirus, God Emperor of CN!

lol, if anything Ramirus is turning his own allies against them and they are in the worst position politically they have ever been in. I don't know how tight his grasp on Gremlins is, but I hope they aren't under such delusions they are in a strong position to do this.

[shilo]

Well, Shah obviously is referring to all the non-paper allies of gRAMlins who see any economic assistance to us as an act of war against their ally and friend gRAMlins. This is the general problem, everyone says they disagree with what gRAMlins are doing, but those in the position to actually make good on their word like to point out at all time that gRAMlins are their allies and thus any interference, ie showing clearly to gRAMlins with actions that what they are doing is wrong, will be met with their military resistance.

This is why so many are enablers for gRAMlins actions: supporting their ally who clearly does something wrong is enabling that alliance to do so in the first place. The only way to stop enabling them is by clearly cutting support for gRAMlins, even if only until they have come to their senses.

[Sephiroth]

If Gremlin's allies wanted to put an end to this they could do a declaration of not supporting the war, then give a timeline for Gremlins to peace out or it will be considered a separate conflict they won't be supported in.

You could even tell them the timeline to peace out in private without doing a declaration first, but if you give them advance warning they can't expect help from alliances hitting them to help IRON if they continue regardless.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Methrage

[fallin]

[quote name='AirMe' date='06 April 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1270575309' post='2250487']
Point me to a statement that I made that said I would attack anyone who gets in the Gremlins way. I will pay you 250 tech if you can find such a post from me here in this thread.

Let me lay it out for you: I WANT GREMLINS TO BE ATTACKED! Ram has ruined that alliance and he held peace up for 5 days before they were left on the battlefield. In no way do I support or condone his actions. And I fully think that any of IRON and DAWN's allies who come to help them should not be countered.

Go ahead Alterego, twist those words to fit your agenda. Because I cannot be more clear of where I stand on this issue.
[/quote]

Airme, some posters in this thread from both sides of the conflict such as yourself,shahenshah and VladimirStukov make valid points about the nature and effect of the Gramlins conflict on IRON. I think the points raised up by my opponents in this thread have some measure of truth in them and it would be wise for our governments to actively consider their points of view.

On the other end of the spectrum, we also have people like Alterego and RebelVirginia who are less interested in bringing points across than to paint MK, MHA and other related alliances as "enablers of evil","tyrants" and "the new Hegemony". Their political agenda in doing so is so obvious that they don't even pretend to have a coherent argument or proof to their allegations anymore. To speak to such people with rational and logic would be in the words from another world,"playing a violin to a water buffalo".

I've given up trying to argue with such gentlemen and you'd be wise to follow suit.

[shilo]

There isn't much to argue about here actually. There haven't been a lot of things in the history of CN that have been equally much despised as the actions of your best friends and allies gRAMlins.
Now if you want to set a sign, make a public one that says you will no longer enable them to do what they are doing as they are no longer protected by you regardless of their actions.
Cause that is what you are still doing right now, you are protecting them against any kind of interference while they are trying to fight a perpetual war hoping to enforce unconditional surrender on two alliances.

Edited April 6, 2010 by shilo

[fallin]

[quote name='shilo' date='06 April 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1270588843' post='2250714']
There isn't much to argue about here actually. There haven't been a lot of things in the history of CN that have been equally much despised as the actions of your best friends and allies gRAMlins.
Now if you want to set a sign, make a public one that says you will no longer enable them to do what they are doing as they are no longer protected by you regardless of their actions.
Cause that is what you are still doing right now, you are protecting them against any kind of interference while they are trying to fight a perpetual war hoping to enforce unconditional surrender on two alliances.
[/quote]

I note that my government hasn't made any public statement on our stance regarding the Gramlins affair. I think it would be presumptous to assume MHA policy falls one way or another before we've actually said anything.

[shilo]

[quote name='fallin' date='06 April 2010 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1270589565' post='2250724']
I note that my government hasn't made any public statement on our stance regarding the Gramlins affair. I think it would be presumptous to assume MHA policy falls one way or another before we've actually said anything.
[/quote]
Well then, as you are the treaty partner of gRAMlins left, I will assume you and your government support gRAMlins until I see an announcement saying otherwise, fair deal?

[fallin]

[quote name='shilo' date='06 April 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1270589720' post='2250730']
Well then, as you are the treaty partner of gRAMlins left, I will assume you and your government support gRAMlins until I see an announcement saying otherwise, fair deal?
[/quote]

I'm more inclined to hold a neutral stance but I can see where you're coming from. You'll keep your assumptions, I'll keep mine. My triumvirate, in their time and grace when they do say something, will prove either one of us wrong. Deal.