The New Grämlins

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='18 June 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1276849232' post='2341721']
Yes, Gre did think they could make IRON/DAWN surrender. I should know I was in a few discussions about it with various GRE members.
I am quite sure it was Ram himself that told me IRON [b]WILL[/b] surrender. GRE is dead, please bury it and move on
[/quote]

Believing they will surrender and thinking we have the military force to make them surrender are different things.
Anybody who believed GRE alone had the strength to "force" IRON to surrender is an idiot, as I stated in my previous post.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='amad123' date='18 June 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1276878158' post='2341966']
Guess which alliance has only [size="6"][b]26 [/b][/size]members now?
[/quote]
Poor FCC's been on a decline for a while.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 June 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1276879210' post='2341985']
Believing they will surrender and thinking we have the military force to make them surrender are different things.
Anybody who believed GRE alone had the strength to "force" IRON to surrender is an idiot, as I stated in my previous post.
[/quote]
I would say anyone who thought they could get them to surrender by the use of force would at least [u][s]believe[/s] think[/u] they could pull it off. If you are saying now you didnt even think you could force them to surrender with the use of force while using force then I put it to you that this was nothing more than alliance suicide.

edit:wrong word

Edited June 18, 2010 by Alterego

[Gobb]

Most fortunate, IRON!
With the addition of TECUMSEH, will you finally be destroying Grämlins?
I can't believe in only a few days' time this will all be over! So exciting!

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' date='18 June 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1276880301' post='2342008']
Most fortunate, IRON!
With the addition of TECUMSEH, will you finally be destroying Grämlins?
I can't believe in only a few days' time this will all be over! So exciting!
[/quote]
Your sarcasm is duly noted. You are a fool if you think that the Gramlins will just roll over and die upon an assault on their top tier should it come. I know you want full scale reps to begin, but that's just not going to happen at this time; no matter how hard you wish for it to be so.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 June 2010 - 09:40 AM' timestamp='1276879210' post='2341985']
Believing they will surrender and thinking we have the military force to make them surrender are different things.
Anybody who believed GRE alone had the strength to "force" IRON to surrender is an idiot, as I stated in my previous post.
[/quote]

I am not sure this makes much sense. At least the first sentence doesnt. I think you could convince me of the merit of the second sentence.

As to the first sentence how exactly does one believe they can achieve something without thinking that one can achieve something? This kind of duality of mental processing is something new to me.

edited for spelling. You will find I am a terrible speller.

Edited June 18, 2010 by crazy canuck

[Gobb]

Well I do think we got off on the wrong foot now. It's saddening you would think I would not be truthful in my posts, as I truly am very happy for you having that newest applicant. I was just incredibly happy we are about to see the final attack that'll bring an end to this tedious war of attrition. But I guess I was incredibly naïve and premature in my celebration thinking it would come this soon, as you seem to wish to postpone it for a better, more safe occasion.

Oh well.. Keep your eyes on the prize, IRON, don't let them sneak up on you!

Edited June 18, 2010 by Lord Gobb

[amad123]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='18 June 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1276879442' post='2341989'][quote name='amad123' date='18 June 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1276878158' post='2341966']
Guess which alliance has only [size="6"][b]26 [/b][/size]members now?
[/quote]
Poor FCC's been on a decline for a while.
[/quote]

Sorry, no soup for you!

[Solaris]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 June 2010 - 07:40 PM' timestamp='1276879210' post='2341985']
Believing they will surrender and thinking we have the military force to make them surrender are different things.
Anybody who believed GRE alone had the strength to "force" IRON to surrender is an idiot, as I stated in my previous post.
[/quote]Anyone who thinks IRON (or [i]anyone[/i]) would surrender unconditionally without being forced to do so, is an idiot.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='amad123' date='18 June 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1276878158' post='2341966']
Guess which alliance has only [size="6"][b]26 [/b][/size]members now?
[/quote]
At this rate Gre will be defeated by the first quater of next year!!!

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Tromp' date='18 June 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1276869636' post='2341870']
I disagree, Gremlins could've never curbstomped DAWN nor IRON, as those two believed themselves.
See the quote in my sig.

The difference is that the CBs used are different. Whereas Polar had no CB other than "we feel like it" (I ignore the bs "racist" argument for a moment here), Gremlins stated they were defending MK from aggression by IRON.
[/quote]

Had Gremlins been able to hit IRON's top tier at the beginning, it could very well be a different story at this point. Point is, Ramirus honestly thought he could defeat IRON/DAWN. his Ego knows no bounds, unfortunately as intelligent as he is, his intelligence failed him this time.

As for the CBs, part of Polaris's CB was to defend FoA iirc. so it is the same CB as what Gremlins used and the same style of entrance i.e. paperless.

we may have to agree to disagree on this point, though it has been a pleasure to chat with you.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Tromp' date='18 June 2010 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1276864196' post='2341811']
And maybe you should actually try to argue with me if you disagree instead of making such a witty yet contentless post.
[/quote]

I genuinely think it's off-topic. Also, I appreciate the compliment!

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 June 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1276865727' post='2341833']
you talking about the same alliances that won't allow any IRON/DAWN allies to aid them (yes i know IRON/DAWN don't want/need them now) or the same alliances that have yet to stop Gremlins from continuing this war in other fashions? you really expect those alliances to give a damn should Gremlins impose harsh terms? you truly are delusional. The only alliance outside of IRON/DAWN allies i could see attempting to do something would be VE and even they would have a very limited capability due to their allies.
[/quote]

I've stated it before but its worth repeating, VE does not feel it is our place to depress others stupidity.

Such an action would be at its core us attempting to force our moral judgment upon another, the very thing we are condemning Gre for. The fact that it would be popular still does not make it acceptable in our view.

We might find Gre actions to be despicable, but it is not our place to play morality police any more than it is Gre's.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 June 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1276892460' post='2342181']
As for the CBs, part of Polaris's CB was to defend FoA iirc. so it is the same CB as what Gremlins used and the same style of entrance i.e. paperless.

we may have to agree to disagree on this point, though it has been a pleasure to chat with you.
[/quote]

Before the ESA I would have given you this point, After the ESA though not a chance, all the parties who required defending got their peace then, Gre's legitimate reasons for war evaporated at that point.

For example, when VE went flying around on our surrender tour last war, we sought only white peace for ourselves. Terms (if any) were left up to those actually engaged on that front prior to our involvement, our involvement in any front we engaged was concerned solely with securing peace for our friends and allies.

Defending ones friends and allies is a laudable goal, asking for more in surrender terms than the actual wronged parties (who fought A hell of a lot more to boot) just smacks of opportunism and is despicable.

Edit: for the record I disapprove of a "paperless" FA style, we have quite enough chaos here without giving up treaties and subjecting ourselves to a world where anyone may declare war, on whoever they want, for whatever reason.

Edited June 18, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Tromp]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 June 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1276892460' post='2342181']
Had Gremlins been able to hit IRON's top tier at the beginning, it could very well be a different story at this point. Point is, Ramirus honestly thought he could defeat IRON/DAWN. his Ego knows no bounds, unfortunately as intelligent as he is, his intelligence failed him this time.
[/quote]
This is possibly true.
[quote]
As for the CBs, part of Polaris's CB was to defend FoA iirc. so it is the same CB as what Gremlins used and the same style of entrance i.e. paperless.

we may have to agree to disagree on this point, though it has been a pleasure to chat with you.
[/quote]
You forget the difference I pointed out earlier, that is that the FoA issue had already been resolved so Polar had no leg to stand on...
So yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree anyhow but I agree it has been a pleasure chatting with ya.


[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='18 June 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1276893244' post='2342191']
I genuinely think it's off-topic. Also, I appreciate the compliment!
[/quote]
I'm here to please. (And yes I do agree that it is offtopic but it was part of the argument so apologies for that.)

[wickedj]

This thread is about 200 pages past when it stopped making sense and you all should feel bad

[President Obama]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 June 2010 - 02:38 AM' timestamp='1276825093' post='2341314']
Sorry for the size, but this keeps getting ignored.
[size="7"]Would that be the "Old" Gremlins that everybody keeps saying were so honorable? The ones whose "good name" we are soiling?[/size][/quote]
I could be wrong on this, but from what I've heard didn't "Old" Grems offer their support to VE and were told to stay out at the time?

edit: That's what I was told at least.

Edited June 18, 2010 by President Obama

[Derantol]

[quote name='wickedj' date='18 June 2010 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1276895982' post='2342226']
This thread is about 200 pages past when it stopped making sense and you all should feel bad
[/quote]

I'm sorry. I feel bad now.


To Matt, I would like to see your response to my post. I have my hunches as to how you'll respond, but I'd like to see whether that is the case.

[The Warrior]

[quote name='wickedj' date='18 June 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1276895982' post='2342226']
This thread is about 200 pages past when it stopped making sense and you all should feel bad
[/quote]

This thread makes perfect sense given who it is about.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='18 June 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1276878506' post='2341970']
He who asserts, must prove.

The burden of proof is on [i]you[/i], not us.

We are claiming they [i]might be[/i] unreasonable, but you are [i]telling[/i] us they are not. See how that works?
[/quote]


Are you really making the statement that nobody has claimed our terms [b]are[/b] unreasonable?

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 June 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1276899825' post='2342270']
Are you really making the statement that nobody has claimed our terms [b]are[/b] unreasonable?
[/quote]

Twist his words some more please Matthew. They aren't quite the shape of a pretzel yet.

Gamemaster is saying to you that the burden of proof is on you to prove that they aren't unreasonable. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited June 18, 2010 by The Warrior

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='President Obama' date='18 June 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1276896407' post='2342230']
I could be wrong on this, but from what I've heard didn't "Old" Grems offer their support to VE and were told to stay out at the time?

edit: That's what I was told at least.
[/quote]

I dunno.

However, I've had a lot of fun every time somebody has said "GRE has a history, remember you did [insert bad thing here]!"

They all seem to forget that the first 100 pages of this thread was comprised of them telling me how "the old GRE" was honorable and how we are soiling their "good name"


[quote name='The Warrior' date='18 June 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1276899995' post='2342273']
Twist his words some more please Matthew. They aren't quite the shape of a pretzel yet.

Gamemaster is saying to you that the burden of proof is on you to prove that they aren't unreasonable. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]


This is part of his post:
[quote][u]We are claiming they [b]might[/b] be unreasonable[/u], but you are telling us they are not.[/quote]

Emphasis mine.
Since I apparently have trouble interpreting that.. maybe you can help!

Edited June 18, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Lord Rune]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 June 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1276900219' post='2342279']


This is part of his post:
"[u]We are claiming they [b]might[/b] be unreasonable[/u], but you are telling us they are not."

Emphasis mine.
Since I apparently have trouble interpreting that.. maybe you can help!
[/quote]

Seems to me, that it means that no-one is certain whether the terms you may offer IRON and DAWN are unreasonable or not. Gre, on the other hand, are definite in stating that they are not. As ever, it is a request for clarification.

[shilo]

[quote name='Tromp' date='18 June 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1276879060' post='2341983']
Indeed, a choice they made, yet what I hear from shilo (not all of DAWN as franciscus proves right here) is constant whining and he refuses to accept the consequence of the choice his alliance made. It just stikes me as odd.

OOC: ofcourse, it was merely an observation I made... Let's hope it changes for the positive.
[/quote]
I'll say it again: having a different interpretation of gRAMlin's entrance into this war doesn't make me a whiner or anything else. My interpretation is in line with the rest of my alliance which clearly means that whatever motives gRAMlins may have had, entering the war without a treaty against IRON makes them still an agressor, and us fighting them a defender of IRON. It does neither negate the fact that we both declared against CnG, nor does it make their attack defensively just cause you think so because you don't like me or the side we fought in.

And about putting words into someone's mouth: don't complain about it when [u]you[/u] are the one doing it with me

[Tromp]

[quote name='shilo' date='19 June 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1276900735' post='2342284']
I'll say it again: having a different interpretation of gRAMlin's entrance into this war doesn't make me a whiner or anything else. My interpretation is in line with the rest of my alliance which clearly means that whatever motives gRAMlins may have had, [b]entering the war without a treaty against IRON makes them still an agressor, and us fighting them a defender of IRON[/b]. It does neither negate the fact that we both declared against CnG, nor does it make their attack defensively just cause you think so because you don't like me or the side we fought in.
[/quote]
I have outlined how it can be seen differently, yet you make it sound like it's an absolute, which it clearly isn't.
[quote]
And about putting words into someone's mouth: don't complain about it when [u]you[/u] are the one doing it with me
[/quote]
Whatever floats your boat bro.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='President Obama' date='18 June 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1276896407' post='2342230']
I could be wrong on this, but from what I've heard didn't "Old" Grems offer their support to VE and were told to stay out at the time?

edit: That's what I was told at least.
[/quote]

I was not gov that far back, so I'll bow to the wisdom of whoever was actually involved back then.