The New Grämlins

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='20 June 2010 - 06:57 AM' timestamp='1277031460' post='2343607']
2 more nations down, kindly update your blogs.
[/quote]
At this rate Ramirus is bound to back off his unconditional surrender stance (which has made him the laughingstock of CN) very soon. I'm sure he'll come up with something else that he'll claim is exactly what he wanted all along and have his cronies try to spin it like a Gramlin victory. I just hope he's man enough to do it himself instead of sending someone else while he sits in the corner with his tail between his legs.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='20 June 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1277033451' post='2343653']
At this rate Ramirus is bound to back off his unconditional surrender stance (which has made him the laughingstock of CN) very soon. I'm sure he'll come up with something else that he'll claim is exactly what he wanted all along and have his cronies try to spin it like a Gramlin victory. I just hope he's man enough to do it himself instead of sending someone else while he sits in the corner with his tail between his legs.
[/quote]

Why would he,
He's so far gone now that he might as well see it through to the end
When you have reduced his nation to 0 infra 0 tech and Gre are down to just him he'll probably still be demanding your unconditional surrender

[amad123]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='20 June 2010 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1277039235' post='2343696']
Why would he,He's so far gone now that he might as well see it through to the endWhen you have reduced his nation to 0 infra 0 tech and Gre are down to just him he'll probably still be demanding your unconditional surrender
[/quote]
You Sir are probably correct. The only hope of saving Gremlins lies in their membership electing better government and I do not see that happening.

[ccabal86]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='20 June 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1277039235' post='2343696']
Why would he,
He's so far gone now that he might as well see it through to the end
When you have reduced his nation to 0 infra 0 tech and Gre are down to just him he'll probably still be demanding your unconditional surrender
[/quote]
I agree, this is probably how it will go down. It's really sad when you think about it.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='20 June 2010 - 05:31 AM' timestamp='1277033451' post='2343653']
At this rate Ramirus is bound to back off his unconditional surrender stance (which has made him the laughingstock of CN) very soon. I'm sure he'll come up with something else that he'll claim is exactly what he wanted all along and have his cronies try to spin it like a Gramlin victory. I just hope he's man enough to do it himself instead of sending someone else while he sits in the corner with his tail between his legs.
[/quote]

Good sir, this is a gem. I'll repost it in their declaration of victory thread.

[shilo]

[quote name='Tromp' date='20 June 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1276987342' post='2343200']
Seems silly to me, but okay.
[/quote] Not only to you, but that doesn't mean such silly claims should be left unanswered anyways.

[quote name='Tromp' date='20 June 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1276987342' post='2343200']
I understand you disagree since you're one of the people who participated in the attack, but the judgement various other alliances made at the time speaks volumes about the legitimacy of this strike.
[/quote] Legitimacy is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I don't think we would have made it would we have thought it wasn't legitimate at the time.
[quote name='Tromp' date='20 June 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1276987342' post='2343200']
The other side of the medal is that one shouldn't be surprised to see anyone honoring a promise they made in public. It's ostrich policy to do so and possibly a reason to fire your FA guy.
[/quote]Who said we were surprised? It was a pretty unemotional thing as a matter of fact.
The gRAMlins attack IRON, citing whatever reasons, and we defend IRON per our treaty. I wouldn't have imagined any of this was worthy a debate in the first place. They had their reasons, and they might have been to defend a friend, still their attack was aggressive in nature. I personally think that if you want to help defend a friend, you really don't care how you go about it. Attempts however to e-lawyers their very individual paperless route and their subsequent choices into something they are not however won't let this appear more confident.
We have no problem saying that our attack on CnG was definitely aggressive in nature. Of course our motives were not to conquer colonies and land, but as I don't expect others to redefine clear actions based on my individual motives for those actions, neither have the gRAMlins the right to expect so either.
[quote name='Tromp' date='20 June 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1276987342' post='2343200']
Well I don't think they entered the war aggressively, so I wouldn't expect Gremlins to make such a concession.
[/quote] That's your point of view, one I do understand, one I disagree with, but that's okay. However, as Fran mentioned, it doesn't appear you are confident of your course if you require the approval of a 12-men/women alliance engaged with about a 1000 times their NS that you were acting defensively.
[quote name='Tromp' date='20 June 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1276987342' post='2343200']
I don't know their reasons for asking an acknowledgement of DAWN that they did in fact enter defensively. We can speculate ofcourse, but that seems rather pointless.
[/quote] Like many things concerning the gRAMlins, understanding will elude most of us.


[quote name='Matthew PK' date='20 June 2010 - 04:48 AM' timestamp='1277002092' post='2343339']
Yes, I agree.
But my initial reply to his post was that many had previously claimed that they "are" or "must be" unreasonable.
I have no interest in telling you the terms to "prove" they are not unreasonable... in fact I recall Shilo already stating that even if the terms were disclosed he would not believe them.
I have, however, outlined sound logic as to why it is unreasonable for people to think they are harsh. And yet... I haven't really seen any arguments to those posts... just a few pages of waiting and ignoring and then the repeated claim that they must be harsh.
[/quote]
Yes, I said so as a matter of fact. You've made it a point of spinning facts and truth around so often others have to make sure their head doesn't start spiraling out of control watching you do it. When you at one point release the terms to the public to try yet another point of spinning --> "see they weren't harsh at all, it's all IRON's/DAWN's fault" I won't believe that those were the terms you had in mind at the beginning when some of you guys thought you could actually force them down our throats.
Why?
Well, because your alliance and specifically you has not been truthful and honest, to the point where you continue to even redefine words to suit your meaning. Simple: you have not given anyone a reason to believe anything coming out of your mouth
So clearly, anything coming from you guys in yet another of countless attempts of making us somehow look like the bad guys in all of this is just a small distortion of the truth in a long series of attempts to distort it.


[quote name='Matthew PK' date='20 June 2010 - 04:48 AM' timestamp='1277002092' post='2343339']
I am not going to tell you the terms until you surrender.
[/quote]
That line, I hope you realized by now, has become irrelevant. Since we won't be surrendering to you, you can simple cut it short to "I won't tell you".

[Clash]

I really enjoy posting these numbers. They make me laugh.
All those pretty new IRON nations in the upper tier?
Yeah, they count too

Gre total NS on 5/21: 1,950,000ish
Gre total NS now: 1,413,767
Change: -536,233ish

IRON total NS on 5/21: 4,300,000ish
IRON total NS now: 5,487,683
Change: +1,187,683ish

I'm so glad Gre's "principles" are so strong.
Everything else keeps getting weaker.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Tromp' date='20 June 2010 - 06:20 AM' timestamp='1277029197' post='2343580']
Try tro prove that, then we'll talk.
[/quote]
It was pretty obvious the moment Polar peaced out... which was what, 2 hours later? Unless Gramlins managed to attack before Polar peaced, I'm not 100% sure on the timeline of events.

[bigwoody]

I think I finally figured this out!

I have a seekrit spai in Gre high government. This birdie told me the secret terms:
[spoiler]Destroy us! Destroy us please! Before it is too late![/spoiler]

...Gre's actions all make sense now.

Edited June 20, 2010 by bigwoody

[Clash]

[quote name='Clash' date='20 June 2010 - 09:43 AM' timestamp='1277048571' post='2343795']Gre total NS on 5/21: 1,950,000ish
Gre total NS now: 1,413,767
Change: -536,233ish

IRON total NS on 5/21: 4,300,000ish
IRON total NS now: 5,487,683
Change: +1,187,683ish[/quote]
Between now and the time I made this post, another nation left Gre.
IRONically, it was one of their active ones, albeit a smaller one.

Gre total NS on 5/21: 1,950,000ish
Gre total NS now: 1,405,364
Change: -544,636ish

Another one is 24 days inactive. It kind of appears like Gre is taking all the fun out of CN for their own members. Can anyone think of another reason why so many perfectly good nations in such a small alliance have been letting themselves get deleted? Their deletion rate seems far higher than it would be, statistically, for such a small member count.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Clash' date='20 June 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1277051157' post='2343833']
Between now and the time I made this post, another nation left Gre.
IRONically, it was one of their active ones, albeit a smaller one.

Gre total NS on 5/21: 1,950,000ish
Gre total NS now: 1,405,364
Change: -544,636ish

Another one is 24 days inactive. It kind of appears like Gre is taking all the fun out of CN for their own members. Can anyone think of another reason why so many perfectly good nations in such a small alliance have been letting themselves get deleted? Their deletion rate seems far higher than it would be, statistically, for such a small member count.
[/quote]

I have talked to many former Gramlins that left since the signing of the ESA as well as some current members. Most of them think what the Gramlins are attempting is ridiculous and want nothing to do with it. Some of the current members even claim they will not fight this war at all even if ordered to do so. Lord Gobb should be most happy for IRON/DAWN in this regard.

Additionally, FH merged into the Gramlins several months ago and soon the last of them may be gone from CN. I wonder how it feels to essentially be responsible for disbanding and deleting an alliance that was your friend and ally. Perhaps someday Ramirus will give us the answer.

[deathcat]

[quote name='amad123' date='20 June 2010 - 06:13 AM' timestamp='1277039588' post='2343700']
You Sir are probably correct. The only hope of saving Gremlins lies in their membership electing better government and I do not see that happening.
[/quote]

At their current population levels, I don't believe anyone is of quality is left. I really think that anyone left may very well just be looking for a reason NOT to abandon hope and their nations...

Alas.. RAM will likely be the only one left to deal with the "surrender Terms". My guess is yes.

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='20 June 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1277052405' post='2343852']
I have talked to many former Gramlins that left since the signing of the ESA as well as some current members. Most of them think what the Gramlins are attempting is ridiculous and want nothing to do with it. Some of the current members even claim they will not fight this war at all even if ordered to do so. Lord Gobb should be most happy for IRON/DAWN in this regard.

Additionally, FH merged into the Gramlins several months ago and soon the last of them may be gone from CN. I wonder how it feels to essentially be responsible for disbanding and deleting an alliance that was your friend and ally. Perhaps someday Ramirus will give us the answer.
[/quote]

RAM has alot of gaul to basically "Genocide the Pixels of an entire community". I hope he can wash the binary code from his hands..

The Filipino community are some of the best people I've personally met in either world. I'm sorry to see them falling from Bob over stubborn pride of one "man".

Best of luck to the FH nations in rerolling and finding "better friends". One's who value you and treat you as Equals.

oo/

[Broncos98]

The most amazing, and perhaps most comical aspect of this 'war' has slowly, albeit surely, emerged over time. The fact that the man solely responsible for the destruction of his own alliance has failed to show the mettle, confidence, and righteousness to post in this thread is nothing short of amazing. Anecdotally speaking, most CN leaders would have the guts to defend their own policies, regardless of the merit, rather than sending out a lackey to take the beating. Ram's silence paints a rather telling picture of his convictions and character, failing to spread the word of his righteous crusade in such a widely visited arena...these 216 pages of TNT worthy drama.

Ram, please come out of your hole, rally your troops (yes all 22 of them), sing on high the value in your decisions, condemn those too weak to stand by your side!! This is your moment, grace us with a parting shot on your way down and out.

[PhysicsJunky]

[quote name='deathcat' date='20 June 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1277053452' post='2343872']At their current population levels, I don't believe anyone is of quality is left. I really think that anyone left may very well just be looking for a reason NOT to abandon hope and their nations... [/quote]
I believe we'll be the first micro-alliance to pass them in a day or so. Not sure when the community at large will downgrade them back to that status.

[deathcat]

[quote name='PhysicsJunky' date='20 June 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1277054169' post='2343886']
I believe we'll be the first micro-alliance to pass them in a day or so. Not sure when the community at large will downgrade them back to that status.
[/quote]

Perhaps when Cybernations Stats page refuses to recognize them anymore (Less than 20 members)

[Gobb]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='20 June 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1277052405' post='2343852']
I have talked to many former Gramlins that left since the signing of the ESA as well as some current members. Most of them think what the Gramlins are attempting is ridiculous and want nothing to do with it. Some of the current members even claim they will not fight this war at all even if ordered to do so. Lord Gobb should be most happy for IRON/DAWN in this regard.
[/quote]
Indeed I am!
Wonderful news that once your attack comes, final ending will be reached faster than before this very useful intel!
I am only fearful that your (over?) carefulness will become your doom

[PhysicsJunky]

[quote name='deathcat' date='20 June 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1277054405' post='2343891']Perhaps when Cybernations Stats page refuses to recognize them anymore (Less than 20 members)[/quote]
I suppose I was presuming some level of stickiness to the whole affair that might not be there. Status demotions tend to lag, i.e. when does the last leader transfer back to being just a general member.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Lord Gobb' date='20 June 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1277056533' post='2343918']
Indeed I am!
Wonderful news that once your attack comes, final ending will be reached faster than before this very useful intel!
I am only fearful that your (over?) carefulness will become your doom
[/quote]
In a weird way you are growing on me...

[Schad]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='20 June 2010 - 08:07 AM' timestamp='1277039235' post='2343696']
Why would he,
He's so far gone now that he might as well see it through to the end
When you have reduced his nation to 0 infra 0 tech and Gre are down to just him he'll probably still be demanding your unconditional surrender
[/quote]

I suspect that you're right...surrendering to a single nation with 0 NS would be the ultimate sign of contrition, after all.

[ccabal86]

[quote name='Schad' date='20 June 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1277058702' post='2343946']
I suspect that you're right...surrendering to a single nation with 0 NS would be the ultimate sign of contrition, after all.
[/quote]

I lol'd

[Baldr]

[quote name='deathcat' date='20 June 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1277053452' post='2343872']
The Filipino community are some of the best people I've personally met in either world. I'm sorry to see them falling from Bob over stubborn pride of one "man".
[/quote]

Keep in mind, they have followed him out of their own choice. A number of ex-Gramlins decided to pick up and move on. They joined other AA's. Those from FH who have been beat down and such choose to stay and back Raminus. I would assume they got to vote, just like other Gramlins members, and Raminus won that vote.

If they had left, that would have been fewer nations IRON/DAWN needed to beat down in order to get nations who could attack the larger Gramlins. The FH have fount on the Gramlins side by choice, supported Raminus by choice. The price they are paying is for their own decisions.

[Schad]

[quote name='Baldr' date='20 June 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1277068982' post='2344122']
Keep in mind, they have followed him out of their own choice. A number of ex-Gramlins decided to pick up and move on. They joined other AA's. Those from FH who have been beat down and such choose to stay and back Raminus. I would assume they got to vote, just like other Gramlins members, and Raminus won that vote.
[/quote]

It was mentioned (probably 150 pages ago) that he actually lost the popular vote, but with their weighting system he got enough of the votes that really counted to win. And regardless of the situation, I find it very difficult to blame the remaining FH members for their loyalty.

The truly sad part is the way many have ended up exiting when their patience ran out. I count just four remaining on the Gramlins AA: Torino, Rep of Philippines, Reginmund, and Sipaway. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the rest of FH appears to have departed the world entirely.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Schad' date='20 June 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1277072202' post='2344163']
It was mentioned (probably 150 pages ago) that he actually lost the popular vote, but with their weighting system he got enough of the votes that really counted to win. And regardless of the situation, I find it very difficult to blame the remaining FH members for their loyalty.

The truly sad part is the way many have ended up exiting when their patience ran out. I count just four remaining on the Gramlins AA: Torino, Rep of Philippines, Reginmund, and Sipaway. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the rest of FH appears to have departed the world entirely.
[/quote]

Torino is not former FH. He's actually a really great guy, former PC member and all. At the close of the PC fronts he went back to GRE to help fix the awful situation and has now lost interest in the game entirely.

Hard to believe, but he was 140k NS, 12k tech, and had a 2 billion dollar warchest. It's such a shame, but I hear he's doing quite well in RL atm.

[Schad]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' date='20 June 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1277073021' post='2344181']
Torino is not former FH. He's actually a really great guy, former PC member and all. At the close of the PC fronts he went back to GRE to help fix the awful situation and has now lost interest in the game entirely.

Hard to believe, but he was 140k NS, 12k tech, and had a 2 billion dollar warchest. It's such a shame, but I hear he's doing quite well in RL atm.
[/quote]

My mistake; made a bad assumption based on his length of seniority and the fact that he's flying the Filipino flag. Glad to hear that he's doing well otherwise...[maybeoocIhavenoidea]I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the part that irks me is seeing long-time players losing interest in the game and quitting over such a pointless and utterly futile exercise of ego.[/maybeoocIhavenoidea]

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Baldr' date='20 June 2010 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1277068982' post='2344122']
Keep in mind, they have followed him out of their own choice. A number of ex-Gramlins decided to pick up and move on. They joined other AA's. Those from FH who have been beat down and such choose to stay and back Raminus. I would assume they got to vote, just like other Gramlins members, and Raminus won that vote.

If they had left, that would have been fewer nations IRON/DAWN needed to beat down in order to get nations who could attack the larger Gramlins. The FH have fount on the Gramlins side by choice, supported Raminus by choice. The price they are paying is for their own decisions.
[/quote]


You'd be very wrong FH never backed ram
There were 3 or 4 active FH, a further 5 or so that were semi active, its why they were looking for a merge
The original plan was to accept the active and semi active guys and spend the next 6 months bringing them up to standard, sparking internal activity with the 'project' it was accepted that the rest would at best delete, and worst case would hang around with the banks and retired not doing much

unfortunately when ram's plan was committed too without warning anyone the FH guys were the ones left most exposed,

Edited June 20, 2010 by SynthFG