The New Grämlins

[ojiras ajeridas]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1271698646' post='2266449']
Remember when "we" said that TOP would never surrender or pay reps?
[/quote]
Believe it or not... but the will to end the war of our allies played a big role in TOP's decision to end this war. If you go to war, you should have respect of your allies. Because your allies are actually your friends in war, you know? So, if your allies want to end the conflict, you should at least try to end it. This is called loyalism.

[quote name='Liman Von Sanders' date='19 April 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1271700960' post='2266513']
Gramlins offers terms, IRON accepts, Gramlins rescinds terms and opts for way harsher terms...
What is wrong with this picture??
Kinda reminds one of a certain other alliance..oh wait.
[/quote]
If I get you right, that alliance was smashed down some time ago and the people who smashed them down did that because they felt better than that alliance... well sad to see that things seem even to get worse now than they ever were....

[Firkked]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1271707640' post='2266641']
My intention was to make a point about what the world seems to label absurdities. The appeal to some larger concept of rationality exerted by "you" on "us" is equally unfounded here.
In attempting to highlight the absurdity, cruelty or inappropriate nature of our actions I contend that people are, themselves, nearly meeting their own criteria (but not mine, of course)

I suppose it was a shot in the dark; it's much more likely for the loudest GRE opposition here to stick to the lines most easily echoed by the uninformed horde behind them. Why try to divert the floodwaters, I suppose.
[/quote]


So is "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance"]Rational Ignorance[/url]" now the current FA paperless policy at GRE?

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Carlton the Great' date='19 April 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1271709687' post='2266700']
Then make a public statement that you will not interfere with alliances coming to the defense of IRON.
[/quote]

Or you could, you know, leave MKs foreign policy up to them.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Calderone' date='19 April 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1271708340' post='2266657']

No we have an agreement that 2 sovereign alliances were granted peace via surrender and yet they are held at war STILL by your friends, Rush. This is not an internal Gramlins problem but one with interest across Planet Bob. Again do you not want your reps payments or are you just hoping to keep IRON under terms for the next 2 years while letting someone else do the dirty work?
[/quote]

Alex, I will take Conspiracy Theories for 1200 please.

ProTip : Best way to avoid being held at war.... Don't start one.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Carlton the Great' date='19 April 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1271709687' post='2266700']
Then make a public statement that you will not interfere with alliances coming to the defense of IRON.
[/quote]
[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='19 April 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1271711190' post='2266735']
Or you could, you know, leave MKs foreign policy up to them.
[/quote]

That sounds about right.

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='19 April 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1271711341' post='2266741']
ProTip : Best way to avoid being held at war.... Don't listen to Ramirus' conspiracy theories.
[/quote]

amirite?

[Crymson]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='19 April 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1271711190' post='2266735']
Or you could, you know, leave MKs foreign policy up to them.
[/quote]

That's a fairly dumb and oblivious post. Think it through.

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='19 April 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1271711514' post='2266747']
That sounds about right.
[/quote]

See above.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Crymson

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1271711565' post='2266751']
That's a fairly dumb and oblivious post. Think it through.



See above.
[/quote]
You're less adept at adding to the conversation than either of them. Good job.

[shilo]

[quote name='Carlton the Great' date='19 April 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1271709687' post='2266700']
Then make a public statement that you will not interfere with alliances coming to the defense of IRON.
[/quote]
[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='19 April 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1271709352' post='2266691']
mk is not enabling in any way, shape, or form

edit: no u
[/quote]

Thank you very much, things have definitely been clarified now.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1271711565' post='2266751']
That's a fairly dumb and oblivious post. Think it through.



See above.
[/quote]

"Do this, MKer."
"Nah TOPper, what we do is up to us."
"YOU'RE DUMB."

[Bob Janova]

By dissuading people from hitting Grämlins on the basis that you will probably defend them, you are enabling them. Certainly it is your right to be ambiguous about what you would do in that situation – it is to your strategic advantage to keep your options open and allow IRON to take more damage – but it does leave you (and others like MHA and VE) open to the accusation of enabling.

[Tautology]

While topics and posts in Alliance Announcements include a variety of motives, I'm surprised that anyone thinks there's more to World Affairs than attempts at enabling and disabling. In fact, I wonder why I made this post.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Tautology

[SirWilliam]

Personally I'm bothered little by the accusations. IRON and DAWN know where MK stands (or at least where we stood the last time we talked; if confirmation/clarification is needed they should hit us up). We, however, are obviously not the ones they should really be concerned with.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='19 April 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1271712326' post='2266775']
By dissuading people from hitting Grämlins on the basis that you will probably defend them, you are enabling them. Certainly it is your right to be ambiguous about what you would do in that situation – it is to your strategic advantage to keep your options open and allow IRON to take more damage – but it does leave you (and others like MHA and VE) open to the accusation of enabling.
[/quote]

IRON isn't taking more damage tho,
It's GRE who's bottom end is being handed a new one, whilst the top of IRON sits in peace mode waiting as GRE slowly falls apart

[ojiras ajeridas]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='19 April 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1271714286' post='2266818']
IRON isn't taking more damage tho,
It's GRE who's bottom end is being handed a new one, whilst the top of IRON sits in peace mode waiting as GRE slowly falls apart
[/quote]
In this... I agree with you. Unfortunately there's one alliance who doesn't see it... or, maybe, as that alliance stated openly not to care at their members, it is just indifferent to them...

[Bob Janova]

Synth, I think you may have misunderstood there. I meant 'more damage' as in 'additional damage beyond that which C&G inflicted', not 'more than Grämlins is taking'. Grämlins is basically a write-off for C&G at this point so the damage ratio in this little war isn't of great strategic importance to them.

[Crymson]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' date='19 April 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1271711684' post='2266758']
You're less adept at adding to the conversation than either of them. Good job.
[/quote]

Oh, SNAP! Wow! What a burn!

[Crymson]

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='19 April 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1271711940' post='2266763']
"Do this, MKer."
"Nah TOPper, what we do is up to us."
"YOU'RE DUMB."


[/quote]

Hmm, try the following:

"We're not enabling."
"Then prove it by doing x."
"OMG STOP TRYING TO CONTROL OUR FA."

Got it?

[Tarikmo]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1271715651' post='2266858']
Hmm, try the following:

"We're not enabling."
"Then prove it by doing x."
"OMG STOP TRYING TO CONTROL OUR FA."

Got it?
[/quote]
I like mine the best:

"We aren't enabling."
"Then prove it."
"We don't need to prove anything to you."
"You're dumb."
-Insert different scenario interpretations here-
- Insert another -
- Insert Mine -
- Generic counter post -

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1271715651' post='2266858']
Hmm, try the following:

"We're not enabling."
"Then prove it by doing x."
"OMG STOP TRYING TO CONTROL OUR FA."

Got it?
[/quote]
x being the way [i]you[/i] want

As I've said, IRON and DAWN know where MK stands (also as I said, if confirmation/clarification is needed they can contact us), communicated privately the day peace on most fronts was announced. We have little desire to take the route TOP, or anyone else for that matter, expects or demands of us simply because you expect or demand it of us.

Got it?

[quote name='Tarikmo' date='19 April 2010 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1271718860' post='2266937']
I like mine the best:

"We aren't enabling."
"Then prove it."
"We don't need to prove anything to you."
"You're dumb."
-Insert different scenario interpretations here-
- Insert another -
- Insert Mine -
- Generic counter post -
[/quote]
lol

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1271707640' post='2266641']
My intention was to make a point about what the world seems to label absurdities. The appeal to some larger concept of rationality exerted by "you" on "us" is equally unfounded here.
In attempting to highlight the absurdity, cruelty or inappropriate nature of our actions I contend that people are, themselves, nearly meeting their own criteria (but not mine, of course)

I suppose it was a shot in the dark; it's much more likely for the loudest GRE opposition here to stick to the lines most easily echoed by the uninformed horde behind them. Why try to divert the floodwaters, I suppose.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Except your "point" had nothing to do with what either Bob or I were talking about. We observed that you have lost a good deal of your members because of this public relations fiasco, and given a few more weeks IRON could easily destroy your sad, little alliance.[/color]

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Crymson' date='19 April 2010 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1271695756' post='2266388']
Ramirus and his close compatriots had been strangling the relationship between TOP and the Gramlins for a long before that. Ramirus was also the one most directly responsible for the internal decline of the Citadel. He was astonishingly hostile to almost all involved, creating an atmosphere of significant tension; worse, many of the rest of us were certain that he was leaking information from Citadel government areas whenever it suited his purposes. This spawned an atmosphere of complete distrust; the other Citadel governments stopped sharing classified information within the Citadel, as none trusted Ramirus and the Gramlins to keep that information in trust. [/quote]

Odd, I didnt see anyone from TOP on the Gramlins boards for months until the TPF crap went down, then there were literally dozens of you. You'll get no argument from me that Ram had in for you guys but your portrayl of him being the sole catalyst for a deteriating relationship isnt completely accurate either. No one should trust Ramirus, why you all did is a testement to your intellect. When I got to Templar I looked back through the archives you all were talking about booting him literally over a year again well before Karma. None of you had the stones, thats on you. You all knew you had a cancer and put your heads in the sand and did nothing but run to other alliances and whine.

Now if you want to poo poo that, thats fine I understand this is more for the masses but 70+ pages in, repeating the same half truths wont make them the truth. I mean isnt that a page out of rams book by your very own logic?


[quote] you're telling me that you actually believed without reservation anything the guy told you? Haha... hahahahaha... hahahaha. Did this happen routinely? Hahahaha....
[/quote]

When did I say I believed him without reservation? I called him out on the GRE boards publically many times only to be shouted down, thread locked and given some !@#$ about "executuve powers". Really Crimson, after the last few months and how horribly you have performed for TOP I would think you would want to prevent yourself from looking any sillier then you already have. I believed him when he told us TOP went off on gre and its members, I believed friends in Umbrella who told me that, I believed people in FOK who talked about it openly as well. I never professed to have complete 100% knowledge but I also wouldnt profess that 100% of the data avialable was crap either, to many sources from to many corners.

Ram isnt that powerful, no matter how convient that sales pitch might be.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Thorgrum

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='SirWilliam' date='19 April 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1271711940' post='2266763']
"Do this, MKer."
"Nah TOPper, what we do is up to us."
"YOU'RE DUMB."


[/quote]
You're not enabling?

I'm not concerned with this IRON-GRE conflict because I know IRON and DAWN will pull through.

What concerns me is that I can smell MK's and some of CnG's hypocrisy from a 2 miles away, which is an improvement from last year.

[bigwoody]

I think in fairness to MK, I don't know who they could release from terms without forgiving reps, which would be going above and beyond the norm. The better question will be if MK will defend Gre if others come in on them, and if they will release alliances from terms immediately upon reps completion.

We'll find out with time. In the meantime, there are far worse offenders here than MK by any definition.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='19 April 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1271724409' post='2267109']
...and if they will release alliances from terms immediately upon reps completion.
[/quote]
We didn't demand anything else. Soooooooo...