Karma for Sparta

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Coursca' date='01 March 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1267471037' post='2210105']
I like this new MoFA Sparta has -- he makes disliking Sparta that much easier.
[/quote]

Even I thought Sparta was competent enough than to have FA Fails like this. I guess I was wrong.

[Obiwan]

null vote. bias poll is heavily biased

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Penkala' date='01 March 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1267462504' post='2209987']
What? What have they done that is so bad? They accepted easily payable reps from an alliance that was on the aggressive side of a CB-less war. The Hegemony wasn't blasted for asking reps. They are rightly disliked for beating down alliances for no reason and then extorting reps from them.

Sparta has always been a decent alliance who has taken light to medium reps and fought against the injustices perpetrated by you and your allies.
[/quote]

You forgot that Sparta was a part of the "hegemony" for a long time.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='01 March 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1267475901' post='2210205']
You forgot that Sparta was a part of the "hegemony" for a long time.
[/quote]
They were in Q being complicit with NPO's actions several years until the Karma War started canceling their treaty. Now we see the same behavior from Sparta as back then, jumping into other peoples wars on the winning side and demanding reps from the loser. Same mentality of former Hegemony that kept alliances circling around NPO, getting their cut of the reps from the loser.

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Methrage' date='01 March 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1267476449' post='2210211']
They were in Q being complicit with NPO's actions several years until the Karma War started canceling their treaty. Now we see the same behavior from Sparta as back then, jumping into other peoples wars on the winning side and demanding reps from the loser. Same mentality of former Hegemony that kept alliances circling around NPO, getting their cut of the reps from the loser.
[/quote]

What an idiotic line; Sparta jumps in the war defending us and Athens against IRON and TOP, and when they're attacked and subsequently win against the people attacking them they've no right to reparations from the damage?

[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif[/img]

[Reason]

[quote name='Shinpah' date='01 March 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1267477836' post='2210235']
What an idiotic line; Sparta jumps in the war defending us and Athens against IRON and TOP, and when they're attacked and subsequently win against the people attacking them they've no right to reparations from the damage?
[/quote]
I am pretty sure he means Sparta demanding reparations from IRON and TOP: wars Sparta started against them. For more information, please see this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=196&showentry=1401
[quote]
3. TOP shall pay the following reparations:
25K tech to Sparta.
4. IRON shall pay the following reparations:
15K tech to Sparta.
[/quote]
It is true that Sparta has the right to impose terms as they see reasonable and TOP and IRON can refuse if they wish but his point, or so I insinuate, is that the aggressor in a war should not demand reparations of the defeated.

[Shinpah]

Yeah well, I'm not paying attention apparently [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/emot-v.gif[/img]

Also: Sparta, even in declaring war on TOP and IRON, isn't the aggressor [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img]

[Reason]

I would argue only the alliance that is attacked deserves reparations for their damages because they are the only ones who did not choose explicitly to engage in the conflict, thus their damages were unwanted. Sparta entered the war knowing it would expect damages for its actions and I would hold them morally responsible for those damages but I would not hold CnG responsible. Therefore, while I concur CnG should get reparations for their damages, I cannot say the same for Sparta.

[anenu]

[quote name='Pedron Niall' date='01 March 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1267480075' post='2210289']
I am pretty sure he means Sparta demanding reparations from IRON and TOP: wars Sparta started against them. For more information, please see this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=196&showentry=1401

It is true that Sparta has the right to impose terms as they see reasonable and TOP and IRON can refuse if they wish but his point, or so I insinuate, is that the [b]aggressor[/b] in a war should not demand reparations of the defeated.
[/quote]

and TOP and IRON are not demanding any reps at all. Sparta is taking reps due to the fact that they where one of the first alliances that declared in defense of their CnG allies and have been in this war for a long time and taken a decent amount of damage.

[Neo Uruk]

Sparta deserves no karma. They have done nothing.

[Medici]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='01 March 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1267484724' post='2210359']
Sparta deserves no karma. They have done nothing.
[/quote]

They bailed on GUARD and announced a treaty with NpO literally five minutes after leaving, showing they prefer to run from responsibilities rather than face them. They helped Continuum fight a BS war against NV, bailed on their longest ally a month before they get stomped in the WotC, and slithered their way out of the karma war.

[Cooldude247]

Even though I will more than likely be ignored, I feel semi-obligated to say something.

I don't really see how we bandwagon when we were one of the first alliances to defend Athens (C&G). At that point TOP/IRON had the advantage, it was not clear where everyone will fall.

As for the changing sides thing, perhaps we just got closer to more people on another "side" before Karma began. If you think about the chances of us having an elaborate plan that involved "leaching" to the stronger side that has spanned over 14 kings (correct me if I'm wrong but I think thats about how many we've had). The odds are very unlikely.

As for these "heavy reps" imposed on TOOL and Legion.....how are they even closed to being called heavy? I could pay TOOL's reps with my current warchest. I know that being on the losing side of the war makes you lose money quicker but I am one nation and I was just barely in the to 5% at the start of the war.

I also feel the need to point out that I was in Sparta during the hegomony stage and I don't remember requesting reps often, or very little if we did.

I also find it interesting that everyone is focusing so hard on Sparta when other alliances have required much heavier reps in proportion to their size. I understand someone who against all reps to be mad toward everyone. But a lot of people are saying "Sparta is so evil, look at those insane reps" When other people have requested reps as well.

Anyway, if you made it through my boring speech I hope you at least consider some things I said.

I promise were not evil (besides maybe Wilhelm.....but I've always known this )

Edit: you wouldn't know WtD = Wilhelm

Edited March 1, 2010 by Cooldude247

[lonewolfe2015]

Funny people... blame Sparta as if they were the only one who canceled on anyone before the Karma War started.

Face is, before wars come around you find yourself heavily weighing treaties, I don't care who you are. If you have a treaty you've pushed aside for a little while with bigger things to worry about and then all of a sudden war starts creeping up you're going to [i]seriously[/i] weigh in on that treaty. Then you're going to see where your best friends are in the war.

If you draw up that the treaty was not worth the effort, but you didn't take the time to consider it before the war, then it's happenstance that the war made you see the real reason to cancel that treaty. We've seen plenty of alliances on both sides cancel for the simple fact that communication was tough and they were on the opposite side of the political sphere. So if you go around blaming Sparta, stick to your guns and blame every alliance who has done that.

Interesting note by our very own wiki:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hegemony_%28Power_Sphere%29

Funny how we like to draw up sides when things are never that simple. But anyways, let's see everyone argue how horrible each and every single alliance that "changed sides" really is. Because I bet you can't, because you know people in those alliances who really aren't bad people. And if they aren't bad people and they happen to be friends of other alliances that changed sides... then that would lead the logical person to consider the other person isn't so bad either.

In this case, Sparta was friends and allies of many of the people who changed sides, and they picked which ideal they believed in. It's a lot more than many of you have ever done who blindly follow an ally into battle without ever considering the ramifications of your actions.

"Well George, he went off to war so I suppose I'll go too!" No, you talk to your allies and make it known they are being eggheads.

People blame Sparta for taking reps on Legion, yet Legion was among the coordinators of this whole war and by nature an aggressive alliance when you look at in that light.

People blame Sparta for taking reps on TOOL, when they declared on Sparta and lost, they weren't significant reps if other alliances involved hadn't taken reps as well and Sparta can't control other sovereign alliances, so take it up with the other alliances.

People blame Sparta for not even having taken reps yet from TOP/IRON, why don't you wait to see what happens before condemning them?

People blame Sparta saying their FA guy sucks, but I see someone passionate about his alliance not willing to commit to arguing over a lame excuse for a post started by the OP. He even stated he'd debate if this was put into the proper context, which is called [i]compromise[/i], something no one here seems to ever do.

So, if you caught up yet, people keep blaming Sparta for pisspoor reasons and aren't even noticing all of the other things around them they should be taking into account. "Let's dogpile Sparta, that's the new cool thing to do since NPO and TOP got taken out of the picture."

[Azhrei]

Oy, this is some bad ju-ju right here. All you people who think Sparta will abandon her allies - ask any member of Athens if they believe that (hint - no).

[Eric Cantona]

I'm going to go out on a limb and remind you all of the rules. That includes, but is not limited to, OOC in IC, discussion of mod issues, off topic, trolling and so on...

[Shinpah]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='01 March 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1267486922' post='2210428']
Funny people... blame Sparta as if they were the only one who canceled on anyone before the Karma War started.

Face is, before wars come around you find yourself heavily weighing treaties, I don't care who you are. If you have a treaty you've pushed aside for a little while with bigger things to worry about and then all of a sudden war starts creeping up you're going to [i]seriously[/i] weigh in on that treaty. Then you're going to see where your best friends are in the war.

If you draw up that the treaty was not worth the effort, but you didn't take the time to consider it before the war, then it's happenstance that the war made you see the real reason to cancel that treaty. We've seen plenty of alliances on both sides cancel for the simple fact that communication was tough and they were on the opposite side of the political sphere. So if you go around blaming Sparta, stick to your guns and blame every alliance who has done that.

Interesting note by our very own wiki:

[url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hegemony_%28Power_Sphere%29"]http://cybernations....Power_Sphere%29[/url]

Funny how we like to draw up sides when things are never that simple. But anyways, let's see everyone argue how horrible each and every single alliance that "changed sides" really is. Because I bet you can't, because you know people in those alliances who really aren't bad people. And if they aren't bad people and they happen to be friends of other alliances that changed sides... then that would lead the logical person to consider the other person isn't so bad either.

In this case, Sparta was friends and allies of many of the people who changed sides, and they picked which ideal they believed in. It's a lot more than many of you have ever done who blindly follow an ally into battle without ever considering the ramifications of your actions.

"Well George, he went off to war so I suppose I'll go too!" No, you talk to your allies and make it known they are being eggheads.

People blame Sparta for taking reps on Legion, yet Legion was among the coordinators of this whole war and by nature an aggressive alliance when you look at in that light.

People blame Sparta for taking reps on TOOL, when they declared on Sparta and lost, they weren't significant reps if other alliances involved hadn't taken reps as well and Sparta can't control other sovereign alliances, so take it up with the other alliances.

People blame Sparta for not even having taken reps yet from TOP/IRON, why don't you wait to see what happens before condemning them?

People blame Sparta saying their FA guy sucks, but I see someone passionate about his alliance not willing to commit to arguing over a lame excuse for a post started by the OP. He even stated he'd debate if this was put into the proper context, which is called [i]compromise[/i], something no one here seems to ever do.

So, if you caught up yet, people keep blaming Sparta for pisspoor reasons and aren't even noticing all of the other things around them they should be taking into account. "Let's dogpile Sparta, that's the new cool thing to do since NPO and TOP got taken out of the picture."
[/quote]


I blame Sparta because they won't elect me to a government office [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/emot-v.gif[/img]

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Medici' date='01 March 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1267485522' post='2210383']
and slithered their way out of the karma war.
[/quote]
So basically they were supposed to let a few allies (who really didn't fit well with their policies anyway) annihilate a greater amount of allies (who clicked perfectly with them)

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='Pearl' date='28 February 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1267409962' post='2209235']
A one man alliance? Awesome! Can I join? It sounds like I can learnz war fieghting skilllz from u.
[/quote]

That you could.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Azhrei' date='01 March 2010 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1267487702' post='2210453']
Oy, this is some bad ju-ju right here. All you people who think Sparta will abandon her allies - ask any member of Athens if they believe that (hint - no).
[/quote]

Then your fooling yourselves and know nothing of Sparta's history, abandoning and then turning on its allies has been Spartas only active FA policy.

[Pearl]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='01 March 2010 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1267494769' post='2210621']
Then your fooling yourselves and know nothing of Sparta's history, abandoning and then turning on its allies has been Spartas only active FA policy.
[/quote]

Man, I used to think you were alright.

I think I even had Tech sent to you at one point under my rain of terror. I would take that back now if I could

[Grumpdogg]

I remember during the Karma war when Sparta kept declaring wars against the New Polar Order, instead of the New Pacific Order. Target lists anyone?

[commander thrawn]

ITT: people mad that they can't maneuver effectively so they call good leadership stupid, weak, unfaithful etc.

Go Sparta.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='01 March 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1267496268' post='2210653']
ITT: people mad that they can't maneuver effectively so they call good leadership stupid, weak, unfaithful etc.

Go Sparta.
[/quote]
"Maneuvering" is what you call realpolitik'ing your way to the stronger side no matter what?

[Shinpah]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='01 March 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1267504704' post='2210809']
"Maneuvering" is what you call realpolitik'ing your way to the stronger side no matter what?
[/quote]

Could you provide a list of examples of Sparta forcing itself to the stronger side no matter what, and then prove that this was the intent of Sparta?

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='02 March 2010 - 04:34 AM' timestamp='1267504704' post='2210809']
"Maneuvering" is what you call realpolitik'ing your way to the stronger side no matter what?
[/quote]


I don't call it anything, but it just seems like a lot of people are complaining that they got hurt defending their allies and are pissed that Sparta hasn't. Blame your own government or better yet yourself if you are in trouble.

Edited March 2, 2010 by commander thrawn